Cracker.

Ok...I have to post, even though much of my experience has been already stated here by others. One thing I want to say is, as soon as you think you may have been exposed, and in the early stages, DO NOT wash with hot water!! Yes, hot water opens the pores. You DONT want to let this happen while you are first washing off the worst of the oils. Think about it....Opening your pores, while you still have the highest strength of uroshiol on your skin? The Tecnu, Fels Naptha, and other strong soaps blend and combine with the uroshiol and help break it down, so it can be removed from your skin. Say, you stick your hand in a pail of motor oil. Then you add a bunch of degreaser, or dish soap or whatever. Does the first washing completely remove all the oil? Probably not. You would most likely have to wash, rinse, then wash again at least a couple of times to remove all the oil. If you open your pores with hot water before ALL the uroshiol is broken down and washed away, you are inviting that still viable oil into your pores. Your first washing at least, and I usually go for a couple days worth of showers, should be in luke warm to cool water. Yes, heat does help break down some oils. And too cold could slow the bonding process with the soaps. (Then theres also the fact that I am usually hot, sweaty and overheating after exposure, since its usually summer when I get it, so a warm to cool shower feels much better anyway). Next, the reason HOT water, bleach, isopropyl alcohol, and any other caustic substances seem to relieve the itch, is because they just deaden the nerve receptors, a seeming positive factor to healing. Although these substances also do help break down the uroshiol, they do more harm then good. They dry and deaden the skin cells, which then cant heal (they'r DEAD!), they remove the top layers of skin leaving you open to other infections, and bleach probably IS bad if it gets into your bloodstream. I have had PI BAD every year for the past 30 yrs, and suffered scarring which lasted almost 3yrs at one point. My parents did all the old home-brew remedies, which I find out now are some of the WORST things you could do, if not done properly. First, calamine made it worse. Even after washing with Fels Naptha (a strong laundry bar soap containing naptha), using HOT water, there must have still been massive amounts of oil on my skin, because the calamine would harden, and end up holding the oils IN, which DID make it spread under the skin. Then they encouraged me to swim in a chlorinated pool, and did use a lightly bleach-soaked paper towel to wash the rash with. Also isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol was used. My rash was so bad, it resembled 3rd degree burns, and at nite I would have to cover it with gauze, which also made it worse, by holding in the oils, and changing it every morning (sometimes 2-3 times a day) would pull the scabs off, making it worse. It would last for 1-2 months. Anyway, many years later, I've found the best methods that work for me, is Tecnu (when i remember to use it), to wash with, and Calagel (also made by Tecnu) to treat the bumps/blisters with. I used to work for an electronics manufacturer, and we used to use 100% industrial isopropyl to clean circuit boards with...When the itching got bad enough every couple of hours, i would spray this on my rash. Worked great for getting rid of the itch while I couldnt do much else with it at work. If I get it bad enough to where the skin becomes raw, I head to the doctor, where a quick conversation scores me oral prednisone, which usually gets the worst of it in a few days. Prednisone is also available as an injection, but usually only reserved for severe cases. Being a steroid, you have to be careful with it. And if I still had a chlorinated pool, I WOULD swim, since low levels of chlorine would be ok, and it DOES help breakdown the oil and dry up the blisters. If you have any decent oozing, or open sores, I WOULDNT recommend swimming, for already stated reasons. Ok, so i want to thank the people who already stated some of the things I just re-iterated, and say that this is just MY experience. Some of these methods MAY or may NOT work for others. I do want to say I am SURE you are better off NOT using the hot water at first though. Whew!...Sorry for being longwinded...I seem to do that the later at nite that I post...LOL

Thank God...[] Between you, Wheelygood and Peppermill-6 pack....Sheesh! Of course, now TazD, Szuchie, Nature Noggins, and a couple others have taken over...LOL I think my logs are tending to earn me a record number of 2ndTF's, cause I keep blowing it on the First attempts...LOL

Amen. I dont know....I've been very disappointed while watching some WELL experienced cachers rehide caches. But yes, this IS a good thing to instruct newer cachers on. i always try to take a moment and OBSERVE the exact way a cache is hidden before I pull it from hiding. Also, I try to remove one object at a time from around the cache, and try to remove only the minimum necessary to get the cache out. Then another thing I do is take the cache and move several feet to several yards away from the "spot", to open it, go through it and log it. I get edgy trying to do all this while standing right at GZ, knowing in the back of my mind, that I am "leaving tracks and signs", even just by standing in one spot, ie on soft ground, leaf cover, or even grass, moss, etc. Once I'm done and rehide the cache, I try to put every item I removed back exactly where it was, flip the leaf cover around, and scuff out any shoe imprints I left at GZ. Of course, its never EXACTLY like it was, but close. If I cant remember exactly how I uncovered it, I will leave it SLIGHTLY better hidden than I think I found it.

Also only 1 item per order []

Each mayapple only produces one fruit. Cut them open, and they look like a little human brain... LOL Usually, for some reason, Trilliums always seem to grow together with these. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trillium As a matter of fact, we have a cache nearby called, what else but, "Trilliums & Mayapples" I'm sure ATMouse knows this one... LOL

Thank You..At last a voice in the darkness that looks before he leaps.. I helped with the coordinates and because he is not completely "computer savvy" I helped with the cache page....So I was there when the cache was placed and my name is listed as co-owner...... I also did not realize that I could set these caches on an ignore list...will definately look into that..... It is just that I don't like to see them come up on my search page as a "not found" Actually, I was thinking the same thing when I first posted, didnt bother asking myself though. I say, if you dont know the exact location, or how the cache is exactly hidden, I would just wait till FTF logs it, then go ahead and log it once you've found it.

Or you could do like a couple "numbers" cachers around here, and wait till it gets archived and archive it using a found log.

If you're way out in the woods, away from any homes, when asked, just say "Filling the tank..."... "What tank?" "Why, the GAS tank..." "Gas tank???" "Uh yeah, the lawn mower gas tank, of course.." Then proceed to walk away into the woods with your arms out in front of you, making buzzing noises and cursing each and every tree for getting in the way and screwing up the "pattern"...... If they still wont go away, walk a grid pattern while "mowing", and tell them the GPS is a baby monitor, and ask them if they could please get you another beer from the fridge...

??? What is BT? Big Toes? Sorry, I'm a Newb at palms BT= BlueTooth Wireless technology that small portable electronic devices can use to communicate with each other, or a PC/Mac. Has about a 30ft range. If your PDA has BT, you can sync it with your computer (if you have a BT adapter for the comp), or you can use it with a BT capable cell phone for wireless internet access. BUT, best of all, you can use it with a BT gps receiver, which means its wireless. Lots of people attache the GPSr to a hat or the top of a backpack for best reception and to keep them out of the way, yet get good reception.

I havent either...pic I posted was compliments of someonelse's log on a cache a couple miles from my house. Thanx to that critter, I got to log an FTF on the relocated cache... I gotta show this thread to my cachin buddy KillerB....He kills me everytime he just sticks his hands into holes and old logs he cant see into when searching for caches.

Northeastern Timber Rattler Cache was relocted a few hundred yards away.

Hmmm...well, OK...I have found some old caches that the hides themselves werent that inspiring, and I've found caches by someone new who puts out great hides. I think somewhere in my longwinded rant, I said, or at least implied, my point wasnt really the quality of caches placed by newbs vs. "old skoolers". We also have a few "old skool" cachers, Charter Members in fact, that have caches that I think are lame, or should even be archived. These are the same people that have 30-80 hides, that I think half of should be archived because they are unmaintained, in my opinion. I agree with your second point. ALL THE MORE REASON for EVERYBODY to take a bit of an effort to weed out and archive abandoned caches. Again, by abandoned, I mean the hider has not shown activity on the site recently, and does not respond to emails. PERIOD! I dont care if its still a good cache or not, and if people are still finding and logging it. It should be looked at and reviewed by an approver. Granted, if it IS a nice cache, it could be adopted out instead of archived.

Well, the topic has tended toward the value of "numbers" direction...Thought I would throw a little change of direction in. Everyone is talking about how to filter out "lame caches". Well, as subjective as what a 'lame" cache is to different people, it seems most people can agree that the lamp post micro, or the one next to the dumpster are 'lame". How about instead of letting these caches continue to exist, and multiply, and then argue over ways to filter them, we do something about the root of the problem? Around here, I've noticed caches I consider lame, that were placed by newbs. Luckily, not near as many as in other areas, I'm sure. Its not that they were placed by newbs, per se. What gets me, is they were placed by newbs, within a month or so of them learning of geocaching, and then after a couple, or a few more months, they have not many finds, and worse, they havent logged into the site in months, or years. Basically, these are the lame hides placed by people who came across caching as a "fancy", or "fad", and soon after, found it wasnt for them, whatever the reason. As more people get into caching, I expect the people who will just "come and go" will be almost as great as people who will actually be "stayers". I'm not saying newbs shouldnt place caches right away, I'm not saying they need X amount of finds before being allowed to run a cache by an approver. What I'm saying is, shouldnt we as cachers be more pro-active in cleaning up these "left behind" caches? Many of these may not even be "lame" to the worst extent. But I think if the hiders havent shown recent activity on the site, these caches should be adopted or archived. Now, I know this has been a general rule in the geocachers "ethic" or "creed" since the beginning...But how effectively are we actually implementing it? I've seen abandoned caches (what I consider to be, since the hiders show no recent activity, and do not reply to emails), that cachers just keep finding and logging. I know most people dont want to be the "bad" guy and report a cache like this, but I think if we want to keep quality caches out there, and weed out the chaff, we all have to help. To me, I guess the first thing that makes a lame cache for me, is one that I find in sore need of maintenance (ie water soaked, moldy log and contents, broken container). It could be in the best location, or take me on a great journey, but in the end its just lame someone would leave garbage at the end of the journey. If it cant be maintained, it should be pulled, and the spot left for someone else to utilize. Granted, I understand there are valid reasons why a hider may not be able to maintain the cache at times. But if a log by an approver or an email from a fellow cacher gets no response, pull it. If you find a cache that needs maintenance, take a minute to read previous logs to see if its been an ongoing thing. Then check the hiders profile and shoot them an email. ALSO, and I imagine this is where lots of people feel like the "bad" guy...Post a Needs Maintenance log, ALONG with your regular log. This is such an easy thing to do, and I can only wonder how many "lame", unmaintained caches would be cleared out. Also, like I mentioned, if a hider hasnt shown recent activity on the site, and does not reply to emails from other cachers or especially from an approver, it should be pulled or adopted out, regardless of how "lame", "excellent", or the condition of the cache is. Basically, my advice to newbs, and even experienced cachers, on this situation is, if you just got into caching, and you feel the need to place a cache...Go ahead! BUT...If you ever decide caching isnt for you, PLEASE,PLEASE, pull your caches!...Even if you dont feel like going back and physically pulling it, ALL IT TAKES IS A TWO MINUTE EMAIL TO AN APPROVER! How easy and effortless is that? That way the approver can archive it, and make arrangements for a local cacher, or a local organization to physically pull it. This gets rid of the abandoned cache, gets rid of what fellow cachers consider "chaff', physically cleaning up what could become litter and opens up the area for another cacher. Sorry for being so longwinded on the subject, but I think if everyone just took a few minutes to write a NM log or shoot a quick email, we could eliminate a lot of the chaff, without having to figure out a way to filter it.

This from an old schooler....what say the rest? Hear, Hear...

I agree. I mean the online log. I dont leave alot in the physical log anymore, either, unless its a really inspiring cache. Sitting in a swamp on a hot July evening, or on a bare, windy hilltop in Feb. can put a damper on leaving, or even reading past logs in the book. PLUS, the logbook is only located half way through your journey. You still have a return trip that something may happen and be worth explaining in a good online log.

Untrue around here. When I talk about the historic places around here and a good write-up on the cache page, I'm talking about the "unknown" locations, where there is little or no information available at the site. I'm not talking about the tourist traps. On those, I agree, place a cache the best you can, and rely on the info available at the site to inform cachers who visit. Anyone who has done any of my "historic location" themed caches would understand. And as a side note, I realise many cachers dont want to read through my long, essays on the historic aspects of a location. So I always put all the relevant info to actually finding the cache in the short description, or at least the very beginning of the description. Then the story at the end, so they can read it or skip it as they see fit, yet still decide quickly whther to go for the cache or not.

LOL...Dont I know it...But I also realise it and deal with it...The OP asked a question, and I answered with what I would LIKE to see....Not with what I BELIEVE I will see...I know it wont happen, but newbs wont get edumicated unless you preach it...LOL

Well said. This is a good part of what I'm feeling. I live in one of the few realatively "open" caching areas, but I am feeling the "pressure" of lackluster caches moving closer. We have a TON of interesting historical locations around, most that have a good story, or a scenic location to go with them. Unfortunately, life changes have kept me from devoting the time I would like to take on placing caches. I have about 40-50 caches that are semi-planned. I like to take my time, and do research on the history of a spot, or to custom make or come up with a good hide. So that adds to my problem....People claiming a spot I had picked out. What I am seeing, and it kills me, is cachers, be they newbs, and I'm seeing even some "old skoolers" with over 3000 finds doing it, is caches being just thrown out in a good location, and the best hillights of the spot are not taken advanrage of. ie NO mention of the history of the spot, the unique view, waterfall, huge old tree, etc not being used as the reason for the hide. Not even a creative hide, either. Just caches thrown out along a trail just for the sake of someone being able to claim "I placed a cache". If you're gonna place a cache, give me SOMETHING other than just a short hike along a well-used, popular trail, a reason to hit the lampost at Walmart to up my find count. Give me a history lesson, a view, even just a creative hide. Teach me about a plant or tree, a person, a unique bit of architecture....SOMETHING.Some might say "it's the journey, not the find"....Well, I guess I am lucky to live in a beautiful rural area, and if I just wanted to take a walk in the woods, I can do that by walking out the end of my driveway, without having to buy a GPS, and spending gas money. Just put SOME thought or twist into your cache. I think thats one of the main things "old schoolers" are looking for. And another is if youre going to place a cache, take the responsibility of maintaining it. I see SO many caches, not just lame urban micros, but good, old caches as well as new, just left to turn into sodden, moldy, containers with a few items of absolute junk in them. I've seen this from both new cachers as well some old skool cachers. Another thing that gets old skoolers, I think, is the rules and beauracracy that have developed. It used to be, cachers used common sense to place and find caches. They pretty much were able to police themselves. Now we have GC and even now our government, as well as the GC community to do that for us. I got into caching to get out, away from all the everyday crap, and now it seems its being brought into the "game" more and more. I guess I'm second-generation like Renegade, and I have to say, there are "old skoolers" I dont think much of, as well as newbs that I DO think much of. I guess some of what determines it for me is: 1) Ive found old skoolers who seemingly take no effort to rehide caches 2) Old skoolers who dont mantain the 50 caches they have out 3) Old skoolers who write a log archiving their OWN caches as a find for themselves, obviously padding their numbers. 4) Old skoolers who seem to be just number hounds 5) Old skoolers who only seem to find the time to write log finds as "TNLN", or even just a sentence or two on what I KNOW are caches worthy of a paragraph or two. 6) Newbs who just throw a cache out with little thought 7) Newbs whose finds I can count on one hand placing caches in addition to #6 above 8) Newbs who have VERY creative hides, or nice themes or write ups on their hides 9) Newbs who always leave nice logs I guess a summary of what I think old skool caching should be to me is: 1) Put some effort into your cache placements. 2) Put some effort into REHIDING caches you find. 3) Show your appreciation of the hiders efforts by leaving SOMETHING other than "thanx I found it" logs 4) MAINTAIN your hides (and I dont mean just wait for someone to log a problem. Periodically check your hides. If you cant do this, maybe you should archive it and let someone else use the area) 5) Overall, use some common sense when doing anything geocaching-related. Thats it, now that I've written a book...LOL OK, I've turned on the propane...go ahead and flame me.

This is what I'm talking about... Both Bruce and I get grief for giving out minimal hints at first, a little at a time....I know at the time, and when we first give them, cachers are a little upset because they dont get it at first, but when they do find the cache, I am sure they appreciate it since we made them think about it, and they still get to feel they "earned" the find...They usually dont admit it, but I'm sure they feel better about being "nudged" than basically being "led" to the cache. I know I do....This is one reason why I DONT like group caching, outside of our small two or three person group. We all know enough once someone spots the cache, or is pretty sure, that person will just keep looking, and move around in a big circle for a few moments before calling "Huckle"...so it gives each successive finder the opportunity to find the cache on equal terms, with no spoilers, and a chance at that sense of accomplishment.

Yes, Team geoblast, thats Bruce. The man is a "cache artist". He is inspiration for many local cachers. As much as we call him names, and give him grief over his difficult and tricky hides, and his "armchair caching" from Florida (we are in NY, but he is a snowbird), many, many of the best cachers around here look up to, or at least respect him for all he does for the local caching scene. Even if someone doesnt agree with him, or like his hides, and he's had his share of people being PO'd at him, at least they should respect him for letting them know exactly what he thinks of the situation. He really does enjoy reading long logs on his caches. Even the DNFs. But he does likewise, and if a cache he finds is halfway worthy of being called a cache, he always leaves nice logs. He hates seeing people leave the short, "TFTC" type of logs on anyone's cache, not just his own. I'm just hoping that anyone who reads this thread, and is the type to give hints, just be selective in the info you give out for someone's cache. There is a big difference between a HINT and a SPOILER. And in doing so, you may be helping one person/team, and upsetting the cache owner, or previous finders who actually had to earn the right to log a find. Just give some thought to it before giving away a cache find.

I saw this thread and just had to chime in. In KillerB's defense, not that he needs any, I can understand his feelings. KillerB is a legend in the region. His caches ARE well thought out, and he DOES want people to find them, but he likes people to EARN them. However, he DOES put a lot of effort into his hides. Not just in how they are hidden, but where and why they are hidden. He is also the "king" of getting private landowners to open up areas for cachers. Out of his 34 hides, almost half are on private property. He thinks his hides are too easy, and he does tend to rate the difficulty low. However, that doesnt last long, as experienced cachers will usually let him know if its rated too low within the first few days of being published. So I can understand how he feels when many cachers find his caches quickly, with no help, yet others need many hints. As someone who has found many of his caches, I know it bothers me when I hear other cachers bragging about finding them, when I know they have only done so because they were practically told where it was...And its not even my cache...LOL There are many cachers who make it a point to find ALL of his caches, once they have found one or two, because they are all so good. Both Bruce and I are "stingy" with hints, but instead of giving one big hint, that lets you find the cache, we try to give little, ambiguous hints, to "lead" you to the cache...I figure its just enough to jumpstart someone's brain so it gives them the chance to really earn the find, before being actually led to or told where it is. Whats the point in that? It even bothers me when I am caching with another person or more, and they just pull the cache out, or do something that basically tells me where it is. It "spoils" the find for me, and sometimes, I wont even log it as a find, because I feel I didnt earn it. I know Bruce feels the same way, so I can understand his concern about this issue. I also know Bruce is VERY approachable when asked for hints from his caches. I dont know how he keeps up with all the emails he gets from fellow cachers (not all for hints, of course.) He will email any cacher that leaves a nice log detailing their experiences on any of his caches, to thank them for taking the time and effort of finding it. He is very quick to fix any maintenance issues, or to check his caches if there have been any DNF's. I have asked for hints from cache owners, and called other cachers for them. But I'm looking for A HINT, not a list of them, not so much of a hint that once I hear it, I know where the cache is without even looking again. I have also been known to give out a hint or two on someone else's cache. Usually only a hint that was given me by the cache owner when I needed one. But...on the otherhand, I guess some people play the game differently, and like everyone has stated here, I guess its pretty much something we have to live with.

I agree...Benn getting USGS DRG, DEM, Orthophotos, and historic USGS topos for several years now. I have 5 CDs worth of USGS and NYDOT maps as well as Orthophotos, literally for ALL of western NY. Have from Lake Erie to Keuka Lake, and from PA border up to Lake Ontario...A few GBs of data, ALL FREE!!... Most states have some kind of GIS clearinghouse website. And most of the data is free. Just do a google for "(your state) GIS clearinghouse".... I'm going to check out Libremap now...

Dont know about veni vidi sivi, But my motto is veni vidi velcro. I came, I saw, I stuck around

Two words: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Metal Detector Just dont get caught carrying it in a NY state park... Check local park regulations before using one. Even carrying one where you're not supposed to can get you in trouble. In my opinion, using one would make things MUCH too easy. I've only had acouple of caches I had to return to several times because they were below ground level, thus covered by snow completely. I would check the logs...If its been found recently, then its probably findable in the winter. Or, how aboot even trying to email the owner, and ask them if they think its findable under "X" amount of snow...They should best know the recent local weather conditions, and whether they think it would be findable or not. And, if you're not sure you can find it, put it on a bookmark list, or something, and save it for spring.

I find I almost always agree with Lep. I find I almost always DISAGREE with Keystone cacher.