chaosmanor

I'm going to add another vote-of-confidence to Germany and the Czech Republic, as well as to the Netherlands, the U.K, New Zealand and Australia. In fact, most of Europe seems to do very well; every once in a while, a traveler of ours goes missing in Europe, but most of them travel quite a bit. And we've had very good luck in The Antipodes; can't think of the last time a geocoin or TB "just vanished" Down Under. I also agree with Gitchee-Gummee about TBs tending to stay active longer than geocoins, but with the proliferation of "traveling tags", there is not as much of a difference, anymore, likely because the tags have distinct icons. And that's the bottom line: some people just cannot be happy with "merely" seeing an icon on their profile; they have a psychological need to own the item that has the icon. Thievery of intrinsically-valueless items (almost all travelers have little or no intrinsic value) is a mental defect: it's called kleptomania. I pity those who feel an unfightable urge to steal a geocoin: they are broken. I *do* think that G-G is incorrect about locale not mattering: different cultures have different ethical centers, and differing behavioral prohibitions and acceptances. There are always exceptions, of course, but there are strong trends which are well established.

Yes I would. (snip) Have you ever? Many times. Every TB Hotel (or similar cache, with several travelers in it) that we see, I make a note of all the travelers, and post Notes or Discoveries saying that we saw it, but didn't move it for whatever reason: too many to move them all, knew we couldn't help with the mission, whatever. I did not make the rules about what counts for whatever; if we've never seen it before, I Discover it. But if we have already moved or Discovered the traveler, but come across it again later, I will *ALWAYS* post a Note; there is no reason to Discover a TB twice, or Discover one which we moved earlier. And it is not my fault if we get "credit" twice for moving a TB twice, with time in between the two moves.

I remember that! That was pretty cool The thing is still traveling now, too; really glad you got that back on the road. But that isn't what I'm talking about; this was four TBs (another log came in a few minutes ago) of TBs which were all lost years ago, all many miles apart from each other. There is no way that one cacher is going to Find all four of those on the same day. Keystone: thanks for the info; I'm going to do that right now!

I will make a point to drop-and-lift (some call it "dipping", but I dislike that term, as it has distasteful connotations) travelers that we have with us on trips and such, if we are unable to leave them in a cache. Sometimes we don't find enough caches big enough, or a larger cache is in a spot that we don't feel is safe enough to leave a traveler. Sometimes, a cache (particularly TB Hotels) have a reputation for things "disappearing" (i.e. they get stolen by caching ne'er-do-wells), so we just don't leave anything. Whatever the case, we feel it honorable to at least let the owners know that we tried. Plus, giving the travelers credit for the trip is a nice thing to do. It makes no difference how big the cache is; I try to use the one farthest from home. BTW: I don't do the serial "drop the TB or geocoin in every cache we visit" thing. A) it takes forever, B') it's too easy for me to forget one or more caches, and C) the owner never gets notice of "visits", only of "drop-offs" and "retrievals", so why waste all that time? I do it once, the owner gets an e-mail, the Bug or Coin gets some miles, and everyrone is happier, I hope

So I'm sitting at the computer, going through the mountains of old e-mails, looking for stuff to delete. While I'm at it, new e-mails come in... "Hey! Someone Discovered a TB of ours that vanished more than six years ago! Cool Too bad they don't say where they saw it, but I can write to them about it. Hey, wait a second; here's another TB Discovery from the same people. And a third..." OK, you can see what the deal is. All three of these "Discoveries" were on TBs that had tags in the old six-digits, numbers-only series. The cachers (Mia&Jesper) started at 100000 or thereabouts, did a "discovery", added '1', did a discovery on *that* TB, and so on. The three e-mails came in numerical order, based on the tag IDs. As the three TBs in question had vanished hundreds of kilometers apart from each other, there was no way any of the "Discoveries" was legitimate, so I deleted the logs. If these folks are trying to qualify for a challenge cache or something, they can do it the right way. If they were looking at all of the different TBs over the past decade, that's cool, but Discoveries of TB pages is, for me, like claiming a Find on a cache you didn't get to. So, don't be surprised if you get an e-mail that says that Mia&Jesper "Discovered" a TB of yours that vanished long ago. I would suggest deleting the log, unless it has some real details that sound legitimate. But it's really up to you. I just don't think making things easier for the cheaters and rule-benders helps any of us: that's my three-and-a-half cents.

Same here There could not have been very many of them, for them to have run out so quickly. "The Racketeer" geocoins were available for many days.

I realize that this thread is more than two years old, but I thought it still might be worthwhile to respond to this particular point... Lucky you PaRacers! If you don't mind me asking, what kind of plastic case did they come in? Thanks, pasha I believe they're called "proof cases" they're round, made of hard clear plastic and completely enclose the coins They are also known as capsules but I would get your coins out of them asap as they are probably poor quality ones that will do your coins more harm than good (aka chemical fumes) We just picked up a geocoin produced by this company. It was in the proof case, and is in pretty good condition, all things considered. There is no readily-noticeable tarnish on the reverse, although there does appear to be a soft patina which one would except from most metals used in minting of any sort. The coin is dated 2010, so it's been in this case for two-years-plus; thus, it seems likely that one need not worry about the quality of the plastic used. There will always be exceptions, of course; nothing that is mass-produced is ever perfect.

OK, you have multiple issues here... Something about this does not scan, and you *may* have a legitimate complaint. Posting a DNF means that one cannot Find the cache, not that one cannot solve the puzzle. If you are politely asking for a hint, and are told to post a DNF first, then the CO is not playing fair, especially if others have gotten a little help. If the issue is with one particular CO, then you might just have to ignore his/her caches. Every aspect of Life has a jerk or three in it, and the best way to deal with them is ignore them. If you are absolutely certain that a cache is on PP, or has really bad coords (more than 30 feet off; less than that is, IMHO, good enough for geocaching purposes), this is reportable. Write directly to a local Admin/Approver for help. Don't whine. Be polite. Don't whine. Expect it to be several days before you get a response. Don't whine. If the Admin doesn't agree with your position, accept it. Don't whine. I am going to be blunt. I see two problems here. You have a bit of a persecution complex. And I am really not able to understand exactly what you are trying to describe. If a cache has bad coords, or is on PP, why would this information be passed around at an event? Are you trying to say that the correct information is passed around at an event? And if you never go to events, how can you know any of this? I'm not being a smart-a@@ here; I really cannot see your point. It looks to me as if you are making accusations without any evidence at all. And as for cache logs not mentioning problems, let me be blunt again: 90% of the people in this world don't look much beyond their noses, and cachers (as a group!!) are not much more observant. Most of them follow the arrow, don't look around at the scenery, and then go haring off after the next cache. That's just how it is No, that is not "clique mentality". A clique is a group of people who band together for whatever reason, and keep out others who they think are beneath the clique. Being afraid to upset someone, or sucking up to someone, is toadyism. As for lame hides, they are ubiquitous, and you can't do anything about them. Let that go. Bad coords and bad locations can be dealt with; ask an Admin for help with this. You *can* get a cache turned off if it is truly bad. But you better be able to prove it. Only from your PoV. We've been doing this for more than a decade, back when LPCs did not exist, and no one had heard the term "urban micro". All caches were on trails, in parks, etc. The game has changed a LOT in our eleven active years of caching. I don't really "like" LPCs, but I still hunt them, now and then. I think that they have cheapened the game, but I'm not slavish about it. Total agreement with you on this. It happens, a lot. But a lot of times, that's the best that our hi-tech toys can do: lots of trees, narrow canyons, many tall buildings all make for lots of signal bounce. Post the information on the cache page, in a Needs Maintenance post. When you find it, post the correct coords, or a "it was 40 feet to the SW of GZ", or something, as an advisory to others. And then forget about it. If someone gets huffy with you, tell them that you were just posting what you saw when you were there, which is SOP. There is no argument that some people refuse to believe that they can make a mistake. Don't know if it helps, but every area has at least one of those; we have a couple of them around here. Their caches get ignored after a while, and most of them eventually lose interest. Not around here, and when we find such groups, we hound them out of existence Just kidding!! In a way, the entire local group *is* a clique, I suppose, but we are very welcoming of new people, and we try to help them with their hides, because it makes it more fun for all of us. There are actually two such groups, but the membership of each is almost a mirror of the other. We're kinda weird that way This is the last resort, to be used only in a few instances... ...A cache has been thoroughly trashed, and the CO does not respond to two or more NM requests. ...A CO has been inactive for a year or more, and a cache has an obvious problem: several DNFs in a row, for example. ...A cache can be seen, or even Found, but it definitely is on National Park Service land, private land (with or without signs), well off a trail, in an area where the rules require one to stay on the trails (most such rule sets allow one to go ten feet or so off a trail for "necessary" reasons), or something similar. In this case, you had better be 110% certain of your reasons. ...A cache is in a sensitive area, and a stream of people looking for it will cause serious damage. Places of high erosion, a cache at an old ruin: things of this sort are what I mean here. Bottom line, though, is that, "You cannot Find them all". Yeah, it's frustrating to put in time on a search, and come up empty because of problems. Like that sort of thing doesn't happen in The Real World! The cache should be a bonus; any hike is a good one, as far as I am concerned, so if I don't Find a cache or two, that's OK, if I got to see some nice scenery, maybe took some photos, etc. Focus on the positive aspects of the hunt; the negatives won't feel so negative. Hope this helps you.

The best thing to do in regards to caching on USFS land is to go to the USFS website - http://www.fs.fed.us/ - and then use the search boxes in the orange bar ("By State" or "By Name"), and then go to the NAtional Forest in question. ON that Forest's home page is a Search box. Type "Geocache" in it; you should also type "Geocaching" in it, in a second search, just to cover the bases. If you get a "No pages were found" message, then that particular National Forest has no policy pro or con. As long as your cache hides are along a trail, not near any historically or naturally sensitive area, are not on a private "in-holding", etc. etc. etc, then you are OK. OTOH, if you get a result from your search, read what you get, and follow whatever rules, etc. apply. Out here in The West, National Forests are large, many are within an hour's drive of large population centers, and some of them are for public recreation only, or have very limited lumbering, mining, etc, so the opportunities for geocaching, letterboxing, etc. are many. I guess it isn't quite that way back East. BTW: I'm a pedant and a stickler. The acronyms are USFS, as in United States Forest Service, and NPS, as in National Park Service. Please try to keep these straight, especially if you need to talk to an employee of either. Using NFS shows a lack of knowledge, and you are likely to be rebuffed if you are asking permission, because it looks like you don't even know to whom you are speaking. And USPS would be even worse: that's the movers of snail-mail.

ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY, FAR-FREAKING OUT BOFFO!!! Firefox is already my normal browser; this installed quickly, it works very nicely, and Google Maps comes out as the default. The only thing missing is the map-scale, and I can deal with that through my Google account. Thank you, mitak! My faith in Humanity is restored

this is where google dropped the ball. if they went ad based instead of pay or get out, they'd make more money. 2M impressions a day would be a lot of money from ads. Power69 - you are wrong. This is about GS's greed, not google's. Oh, please! I have been as negative in some of my criticisms of GS as anyone over the years, but I can't agree with you at all. If Groundspeak is as greedy as you say, why has the PM fee *NEVER* been raised, despite many calls (including my own) to raise it? There is not one penny that anyone has to pay to use the site; for PM users, the $30 is the only fee you must pay. You don't *have* to buy TBs or geocoins or lanyards or any other stuff that GS and its partners sell. This is not a question of greed at all, IMUnhumbleO. Google wants to charge those who use the service a lot more than those who don't. Why is that wrong? GC doesn't want to pay the extra fee? Why is *that* wrong? Answers: it isn't wrong; both sides are acting rationally, as far as that goes. Where GS has screwed up is in not informing us better why they did what they did, and in not giving us PMs a chance to vote on whether we are willing to pay extra for Google Maps. That's it; that's the whole ball of wax. There is nothing nefarious going on: just poor communication and a lack of foresight, both of which are correctable.

Out here in The Real World, that is called "Cutting Off One's Nose to Spite One's Face." One does not change things in any organization from without: only from within. You can destroy something from without (it's called War), and you can facilitate internal change from without (consider Japan in 1946), but you cannot force change from without. It isn't working with Iran or North Korea; it won't work here (and no, I'm not equating Groundspeak with those two countries; I used a rhetorical device to make a point). Effective change is only accomplished by continuing to register complaints and make suggestions, and offering assistance where applicable. That being said, I agree that the mapping situation is ridiculous. Too slow, too awkward, too limited. I suggested raising PM fees by $5 more than three years ago. I suggest a raise of $10 now, to $40 per year; that ought to be more than enough to bring Goggle Maps back. Yes, there will be people who say they cannot afford ten bucks more per year, although I will find that very hard to believe; if you can afford a GPSr and the gas to drive around chasing after little boxes, you can afford the cost of two fast-food meals. The PM fee has been $30 from the start (eight years? I can't remember); I'm sure that many costs have gone up since then. Maybe the sales of all the ancillary stuff has been enough to cover it; if so, that's wonderful. But the fact is that Google Maps has been a VERY VALUABLE asset, and if it needs to be paid for, then let us, the users, pay for it. Give us the option of voting; if more than 50% of those who vote opt to pay an extra ten bucks a year for Google Maps and all the other stuff that we had before, then that's what Groundspeak should do. It's called DEMOCRACY, one of the sweetest words in the English language. Give we, the users, the chance to vote on this.

I just stumbled across this, and I love the idea! I'll have to try to find that book. In the meantime, however... This will be nearly impossible, except as an Earthcache. These dunes are now part of Death Valley National Park, so physical caches won't work. Not sure how close you can actually get for a physical cache, but it'll be a ways. Currently there is a physical cache in what's left of the town of Panamint Springs, and one that might predate the expansion of the park at the junction of CA-190 and Panamint Valley Road, which comes north from Trona. I suspect that those two are it.

Something else to consider is this: if the current cache is really in bad shape (BE HONEST WITH YOURSELF IN THIS EVALUATION!!), post a "Needs Maintenance" log and detail the problems. This gives an extra push to the CO. If s/he still doesn't respond, after a couple of months you have a couple of choices: post a "Needs Archival" log, or start to do the repairs without the owner's consent. If you choose the latter, other cachers will thank you; if you choose the former, with the intent of recreating the cache if a reviewer archives the original, be prepared to be accused of vulturing the spot. In most cases, this is really a no-win situation for you, as you don't gain much if you fix someone else's cache (although warm fuzzies are still a good thing []), and you stand to gain a lot of grief if you force the issue. Think carefully about this before you do anything past the "Needs Maintenance" log. Ultimately, each cacher is responsible for his/her own caches, and while it is annoying to see good caches go bad, it is *not* your worry. Being a good citizen does not mean that you can force others to be good citizens. Only they can do that. Good luck!

I have enjoyed all the responses to my rant, and appreciate everyone's thoughts and comments. There are a few to which I want to reply directly... FWIW, we have found Europe to be a very friendly place for geocoins and TBs. To my recollection, only two or three have vanished in Europe, and one of those was certainly due to Mother Nature. Every time I see one of our travelers heading to Europe, I smile As for the quality of many new caches, I can't argue with you. But it's our own fault, really. We don't have to look for urban micro-spew if we hate it. Remember the movie, "Field of Dreams"? This is the opposite tack: "If we don't look for them, they won't hide them anymore." Hey, Droo, good to hear from you Thanks for the egoboo; it's nice to know that some people think of me as "tolerant". I try to be, but I'm not as successful as I would like, or even as I was 15-20 years ago. C'est la vie. Speaking of which, things are going well enough, if one ignores most of them Hope you're hanging in there. Don't get me wrong! We have a number of travelers that have been out there for many years and are still moving. At least a couple of dozen have over 20,000 kilometers on them, and at least one has over 70,000 km. One of our geocoins served a "tour of duty" in Iraq and Afghanistan. One was in Japan during that horrendous earthquake earlier this year, and it is still moving around. Overall, things are much better than the bad things, but the bad things have gotten worse over the past couple of years, and I don't see this trend changing, as far too many people either can't be bothered to read the... guidelines, or refuse to follow them. Let me point out an incident that just happened a few days ago. We took a week's vacation in an area that is fairly cache-rich, with caches in all types of situations: urbans, parks, roadsides, paved and dirt trails, back roads and 4WD "roads". Truly something for everyone. We dropped off about a dozen travelers, three of which were picked up by the same people. Several days after they logged their cache Finds, the travelers were still listed in the caches, so I wrote a note to them, explaining that they should retrieve them when they log the Find. They wrote back a nice reply, saying that they didn't know that, but were happy to comply, and they did. Two of them have since been dropped off. All in all, it was a pleasant experience, but the bottom line is, with over 100 Finds, they didn't know how to handle travelers, because they had not read the guidelines on them, which are very easily accessed. I have no problem with explaining how things work, but I know that this one incident is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg, and that worries and bothers me. Cup half full, bright side... your coins are moving and not being taken outright. I understand the misery though. We have a travel bug \ coin hoarder (thief) in our area who has by best estimates over 4,000 bugs and coins in his possession... kinda a big, dark, black hole... there is just no reasoning with some people. Well, we have to assume that they are moving. Actually, the case that I mentioned, which you quoted, is the one which I discussed directly above, so it is all working out But there are many cases where the outcome has not been as positive. OTOH, when one of these lost travelers suddenly shows up after months or years of being in Limbo, it's pretty cool. But it would be nice if they never disappeared in the first place. As for your hoarder, there is one of those about 80 miles from us. Fortunately, we rarely have to deal with him, but a couple of good caching friends of ours in that area have had geocoins vanish from his caches. He loves to set up TB "prisons", then raids them. I have no direct knowledge, but someone I trust says that he has several dozen of the Jeeps in his possession. But he is High-and-Mighty about others following the rules. Not much to do about the guy, except avoid his caches when possible, and never put anything in them if you *do* Find them. He has a terrible reputation, but he's the only one who doesn't realize it. Some unintended irony there. My guess is that some of those who moved your coins consider the rules (guidelines) pointless, and others are ignorant. Oh, it wasn't unintended. I knew exactly what I was writing. I'm glad that you picked up on it And I think you are right; there are those who think that the rules/guidelines are pointless, or that they only apply to others, so they ignore those guidelines. If everyone did that, it would be anarchy. Anyway, thank you to all who responded (you, too, Eartha! I appreciate you cleaning up my act without getting ticked at me); it's good to know that we aren't alone. I suppose that I'll keep sending out geocoins, but I'm not going to be as profligate as I was two or three years ago. We don't have the free cash that we did back then, so I can't buy as many, and many of the newer ones don't have the appeal for me that many of the ones three-four years ago did.

It's been interesting looking at the lists as they change. Here's my (probably) last attempt, with scientific (binomial) names, just to clarify things... 1 Monarch Butterfly (Danaus plexippus) 2 Cliff Swallow (Petrochelidon pyrrhonota) 3 Green Sea Turtle (Chelonia mydas) 4 Arctic Tern (Sterna paradisaea) 5 Reindeer (North American Caribou: they are taxonomically the same) (Rangifer tarandus) 6 Coho Salmon (Oncorhynchus kisutch) 7 Gray Whale (Eschrichtius robustus) I don't believe anyone has discussed the Migratory Locust (Locusta migratoria), which is a common Orthoptera of Asia, Africa and the Antipodes. They are known to travel more than 100 kilometers in a day, and they eat an average of their own body mass (about two grams) each day. Swarms of this species were a serious threat to farms, historically, but swarming behavior has been mitigated by various changes in farming methods, as well as negative ecological impacts. Other locusts, in different genera, however, can still be a major problem when they swarm.

Not sure that I completely get all of this, but I certainly agree with LadyBee4T: geese are about as dirty a bird as there is Anyway, here are my answers: 1 Monarch Butterfly 2 Barn Swallow (or cliff Swallow: I think they might be the same, but am not sure) 3 Green Sea Turtle 4 Canada Goose 5 Roosevelt Elk 6 Coho Salmon 7 California Gray Whale As for another animal that migrates, how about Homo sapiens sapiens (or, as I often like to think of us, H.s. non-sapiens ) Humans have been a migratory animal for at least 20,000 years, and probably for a lot longer than that. Granted, they don't go back and forth (well, some do, as another poster already mention, vis-a-vis his/her parents), but they *do* move around a lot! Not all migrations are cyclical. And if that answer doesn't float your boat, then there is the stickleback, a tiny fish generally confined to a few waterways in the Southwestern USA and northern Mexico. When Sharon (the Better half of chaosmanor) was in college, she took part in a study of them. In any event, a neat little cointest: thanks! Jim, the other half of chaosmanor

but I have just about reached the point where I am going to stop sending out geocoins into the wild Too many people - mostly newbies, but certainly not only them - seem unwilling to play the game with courtesy and respect for other people. Not sure if they refuse to read the information provided, or if they just can't do so; considering the state of Education in this country (too many administrators, pointless rules and "Goals", and not enough good teachers), the inability to read could be the problem. Maybe that's why so many people don't even post "TFTC", anymore, but just leave things blank. Whatever the reason, I've about had it with people who now pick up Travelers and then put them in other caches without logging them at all. It's happening more and more; at least three that we dropped of last week are apparently in this boat. When I write to the cachers who have done this, they get all snotty and chide me with, "Chill out; it's just a game," as if that excuses their bad behavior. Games have Rules, and for good reason. Please follow them, or find a different game to play. Anyway, I needed to vent. I've been able to handle the occasional muggling of a geocoin or TB, or the acts of Mother Nature, or even the geocoin thieves that plague us. I can understand all of those, but this last bit of disdain for Fair Play and Decency has really gotten to me I've not posted to this forum much in the past year or so, and I really hate for this attitude of mine to be the reason for breaking my silence; I'd rather it was over something really neat But I bet I'm not alone in my disgruntlement. Jim, the other half of chaosmanor <Sorry to spoil your vent, but even though I feel your pain, I had to edit the subtitle - Eartha -Volunteer Groundspeak Forum Moderator>

Respect for other people's property? Courtesy? Consideration? I dunno, but the fact is that very few of our travelers disappear in Europe, or in Asia, for that matter, but they have a tendency to vanish in North America. Canada is not immune. I have my opinions as to why this is, but I think I'll keep my thoughts to myself, as this isn't the place to air them. I don't know about Mexico and points south, as I think we've only had one or two travelers go that way. I know that one of them made it out of Baja California Norte safely.

Heh! That's already happened! A geocoin of ours was found at a yard sale about a year ago The folks who found it were cachers, so they bought it and put it back in the wild when they looked it up and saw that it was already registered. I can't remember which one it was, unfortunately. We have over a thousand, released or in our collection (all paid for, traded for, or won at raffles), so going through them all would take days. Still, anything is possible. What's interesting about that is that, if memory serves, the yard sale was many miles from the cache that the coin was last in. It might even have been in a different state. That would be very cool One of the neatest things for us is to Find a cache that has a traveler in it which is not logged into the cache, and which has been months since the last log. It's happened two or three times, at least. It's a rare month not to have something like that happen to one of our travelers.

We definitely will want a set of these. Very nicely done From the response so far, I have a feeling that you are going to want to make more than just 60-100! I do have a small suggestion. One the inner rim, on the reverse (I think it's the reverse), you have the word 'ELEVEN' twice, and the date '11-11-11' twice. It isn't a major thing, but I wonder if you might want to change one of the '11-11-11's to an 'ELEVEN'. This would make the words read out 'ELEVEN ELEVEN ELEVEN', which is, of course, what the date is, if read out. Just a thought. Looking forward to these

Very cool! Thanks for sharing that FWIW, we have a number of geocoins traveling in Europe, including a couple in the Czech Republic, one of which spent a little time in Slovakia. We have had exactly one geocoin vanish in Europe, as opposed to several dozen that have vanished in the States. Curious, isn't it?

We'd like to know, as well. Good work on these You definitely did your homework, as far as use of the images and such is concerned!!

No Golden Ticket here, but I got two Pink Yimes yesterday, with pins; what more could I want? Thanks for the great geocoin [] Looking forward to seeing how big the donation is going to be!

Just submitted our pre-order Really looking forward to seeing these! Sharon's cousin has been a breast cancer survivor for years, so this geocoin certainly has meaning for us, but I (Jim) am also a cancer survivor. Thus, my question is this: when is someone going to make a prostate cancer geocoin? Can't begin to imagine what the design would be... actually, I *can* imagine what some designs might be, but none of them are likely to be approved by TPtB Oh, fie Well, we'll let this geocoin serve for *all* forms of cancer, I suppose. Ultimately, success in battling one form is likely to help in fighting others.