GeoGerms

Nice idea, rav_bunneh! I check in here every so often to see if there are any questions I can answer about Hawai'i caches . Cache with Aloha! GeoGerms

Aloha Koakai, My wife (808ladybug) and I were the "pair of kind cachers... at Geowoodstock 6" . It was at the pathtag table if I remember right LOL. Awesome to hear you guys are coming out this way. I'll pm you to see when you'll be on island.

Came home to an awesome surprise in the mail today. It was just what the doctor ordered, after a couple of bad days at work. Mahalo Nui Loa Captain!!!

GeoGerms 87:23 (with caches I adopted removed) 3.78 1/21/11 O'ahu, HI 128:32 (adopted caches added in) 4.00 1/21/11 O'ahu, HI

To quote the Lackey. "A person is known by their actions" Go Gettum "clever" cacher! You'll get a few "cheep" FTFs than people will catch on.

Sorry one more thing before I stop beating this horse . Yes they have more pressing issue, but here is the response I got back in March of 2010 from GS (minus the names). "Groundspeak Support to me show details 3/29/10 Request Update View the complete request history ******.,, We are aware of this. At some point it will be fixed but it is toward the bottom of the list. Geocaching is not a competition and if people want to cheat they are only hurting themselves. The Design team is busy at the moment improving the preformance of the site and small issues like this will have to wait for them to get the time. Good for you that you decided to take the high road. A person is known by their actions. Thank you, ******* Groundspeak - The Language of Location www.geocaching.com www.Waymarking.com www.Wherigo.com "

My examples never actually took place here in Hawai'i they are scenarios - "An outline or model of an expected or supposed sequence of events". Yes more often than not, the one who exploits the "loophole" will be an experienced cacher and if they are utilizing the "loophole" will probably "have no regard for the guidelines or common sense" anyway. Hence the scenarios. Yes exactly, those may be the ones that squeaked through. However, imagine the amount of caches that didn't because the reviewers caught it. Hmmm... Yes there is a valid reason for the TB capability, but only after the cache has been published. The easiest fix to the solution is what I have been doing here on O'ahu - Informing cachers of the "loophole" and recommending that they drop any TBs after the cache has been published. Wow we finally agree on something . Yup, I'm gonna stop beating this horse before it di..., dang too late it's dead!

Here's another scenario for ya that does have an adverse affect on the cache and possibly cache owner. Noob cache owner places cache in what he thinks is a park, but in actuality is part of a nearby school yard (I don't know about other places, but here on O'ahu we have several places like this). The "clever" cacher all hungry for his unpublished FTF runs out with coords and no clue to what he is looking for (ie. puzzle (so cache might not even be there), multi, micro, large, etc.). He pokes around a lot and starts drawing attention from the neighbors who in turn call the cops. Cacher finds the cache or not, leaves or stays, it doesn't matter, cops show up find the mysterious container call the bomb squad. Boom there goes the cache --> adverse affect. They find out it was a geocache and contact the owner --> adverse affect. We have all heard the bomb squad stories. The kicker, the reviewer would have probably said the cache was to close to the school and refused it. Notice I said noob because hopefully seasoned cachers wouldn't make this mistake . You can replace the area with other sensitive areas, that reviewers wouldn't allow caches, where muggles would more than likely call the cops. My point is that official publication is vital, having a second set of eyes that are familiar with the good and bad ideas keeps the game safe for everyone, regular cachers and FTF hounds alike. I know the reviewers are human, they do make mistakes and on occasion bad location caches squeak through, but the "race" should start at publication not placement.

Come on now, being a Premium Member is a legit advantage we all know that. You are reaching. If you want a chance at a FTF buy the membership, that's just how it is. The Magellan example falls under owner of the cache giving out the coords. I'm talking more about the majority of the caches which go through normal publication then the race is on.

That may be all well and good for you and those people you play with. However, the FTF game is open to all geocachers and not all are gentlemen (or even men, for that matter). In most races, the winners abide by agreed-upon rules, not "gentlemen's agreements". Screaming "foul" because the winner didn't abide by an unwritten and debatable "gentlemen's agreement" is what the poor losers do. I haven't and will not scream foul. I was merely stating my opinion of the "loophole". When I did find out about the "loophole" and who was using it, I did not berate them. I let them know how I felt and after further discussion we all agreed it was bad form. I know that the FTF game is played differently in different areas. I was expressing the way I felt about it and how we play it in my neck of the woods, not trying to push it onto others. If it came off like I was trying to push my opinion onto others I am sorry I didn't mean to. I was just defending my stance.

Your statements above, all from the same posting, do not jive with your last statement. So which is it? Does the "race" start with the Groundspeak publication of the cache or when the cache is hidden. Your statements seem to indicate that either meet your "unsaid rules". If you are adamant that someone using "the loophole" to be FTF is gaining an upper hand and is therefor cheating, why are you OK with a cache owner giving another person the upper hand by handing out the coords prior to publication? It seems to me that in both of those examples, the FTF'er has had an advantage that was not available to those who rely solely on Groundspeak cache listings and notifications. If the finder logs that he stumbled upon it while out hiking, that is fine, he/she is one lucky bugga. It's better to be lucky than good, well maybe fast in this case. If the owner wants to give someone a FTF by handing out the coords, that's fine too, it's his/her cache. I would appreciate it being written up in the log, but don't expect it. However, the majority of caches go through normal publication and then the race is on !

So what are the "unsaid rules" that everyone is supposed to be aware of and agree with? Can you list them so that we are all aware of them and playing from the same rulebook? From reading this thread it appears that the "unsaid rules" are far from being accepted by everyone. What may be "bad form" for you may simply be another winning strategy for someone else who is willing to put the time and effort into searching for TB's placed in unpublished caches. Perhaps the old adage that "if you can't beat them, join them" is appropriate here. If you are concerned that you're not getting a fair chance to be FTF because of people exploiting loopholes perhaps you should be monitoring those same loopholes and beating the "cheaters" at their own game. OK I'm going out on a limb here, because I'll probably be laughed at but here it goes . There aren't many, but here are some off the top of my head. Yes they are a gentleman's agreement between people I play with, that basically revolve around caching safely and starting on an even playing field where everyone can hunt (noobs and seasoned cachers alike). 1. The previously stated the "loophole" is bad form - not everyone knows about it and there is no distinctive "GO!" to start the race 2. If the cache owner says the cache is in a park with hours go during those hours 3. Follow the attributes, Not recommended at night - don't go at night, Not 24/7 - don't go when the cache is not available, Not a night cache - again don't go at night. Simple rules voiced by FTF Hounds who care about keeping the race clean and fun .

Um, the finder might also be clueless as to it being on Military property. Here on O'ahu, there are several places (i.e. training areas) that look great for a cache placement, but are actually on government land. No, the cache owner and reviewer are still the only ones that can view the cache before it is published. By using this "loophole" the "clever" cacher only gets the coords, he doesn't see the whole picture. The purpose of the scenario was to propose an example that the game starts at publish not at what you stated earlier "at placement with no adverse affect on th cache, CO or subsequebt finders". The OP stated this: "Today there were quite a few new caches published in my area. So this morning I set out to find some of them hoping to score my first FTF. I checked the logs to make sure no one had found them yet and then went on my way. After I got to my first one I checked the logs again and its already been logged FTF. I look a little closer and the FTF log is from 3/19 but the cache wasn't published till 3/21. How is it possible for someone to find the cache before it's published? Leslie" I gave an example of how caches can be found "before it's published". Yes I added my $0.02 with how I felt about the method, not about his situation. Yes I am aware of others handing out coords before it is published and I am fine with that (Which I have stated several times already!). I am merely talking about finding the cache via the "loophole". Your examples are fine. I have no issue with stumbling upon a cache in the wild (You lucky bugga, time to go Vegas!) or finding Published caches. My issue is with taking advantage of the "loophole". That the majority, if they knew existed wouldn't drop a TB in their unpublished cache. I don't think it is far fetched at all. It is not a "feature", it is "loophole" that GS (and some cachers "in the know") knows about and will hopefully fix in the future. To me a race should start on an even playing field and that field starts at publication, when the finder can make the assumption the cache is safe to be hunted. That is how the "FTF Race" started, right?

How can you "cheat" at a side game when there are no "official" rules? It seems that the only widely accepted "unofficial" rule for FTF is to be the first one to sign the log book. People always say there are "no official rules" to this "side game" and I agree with that, but the majority of the people I play this "side game" with do follow some "unsaid rules" one of them being what we have been talking about here - it is bad form to extract the coords from a TB drop in an unpublished cache and go out to find it.

Oh I beg to differ, take this scenario (one of possibly many) for example: Cache owner places cache (and drops TB) in what he believes is a safe place, the "clever" one runs out after it before it has been approved/published, runs into Military Police because the cache owner didn't know it was on Military Property (out here not everything is marked by fences and signs), however, the reviewer did and denies the cache. If you are on gc.com, like the majority of the world (for now anyway), it is better for everyone involved to wait for a second set of eyes (gc.com or whomever) to check the cache out before it is OK to go after it. I don't believe it is "clever" to "beat the system", in fact when said like that "clever" sounds like "cheating" .

I love tunnel hides as well , here's a few in Hawai'i. On the island of O'ahu: GCQH09 GC2DKCY GCR1FZ GCXRH5 GCZ0W5 GC159KD GC1BPE2 GC1HFCH GCMFAC GC10AGB On the island of Hawai'i (the Big Island): GC2M0AG GCGN30 GCQV5H On the island of Maui: GC76F That's all I can think of right now .

They still won't be impacted because whomever is first to sign the log is still the one who is "credited" with first to find and gets the gift. No harm, no foul. It impacts the CO when the CO, like myself, is interested in a fair "FTF race". Why? I know a bunch of people don't care, but I consider it fun (especially when a noob beats an established FTF hound ). And a "FTF race" to me, maybe I'm a bit old fashioned here, is defined as someone saying "GO!" and the first one there gets the "prize (blank log or actual prize)". So, a listing service publishes the cache = "GO!" and first one there = "FTF".

They found the cache, which is what is the basic premise of caching. Do you include or have you ever included or found a cache that has the standard cache note? It does not say "If you found this by accident, you cheated", it invites the finder to join. How they got the coords does not impact the CO, subsequent finders or geocaching in general. The publish date simply is the date it has met the requirements to be listed on GC, not given permission to be found. Finding a cache by whatever means is simply not cheating. Once again I agree with the idea that first to find the cache is FTF when you just so happen to stumble upon one out in the wild or when the cache owner provides you with the coords and allows you to find the cache before anyone else. What I consider "cheating" is when people wait for an owner to place a TB in an unpublished cache on the listing service geocaching.com, extract the coords by a current loophole that said listing service knows about and plans fix in the future, then runs out and logs the find. Like it or not the "FTF side game" is part of the game (albeit not for everyone) and like everything else in geocaching is basically based on an honor system. I don't expect a person who is not a "FTF Hound" to understand this, but by rushing out before the #1 geocache listing service in the world says "GO!" to me is just wrong. One more thing, it may impact the CO when the CO, who is unaware of the loophole, is actually interested in who will be FTF (say when they place a FTF prize in the cache).

I agree with you except that I am talking about "beating" the GC listing service, obtaining the coords (without cache owners approval), and logging it before it is officially published.

There is another way which I haven't seen mentioned here. If the owner places a TB in the cache before it's published there is a way to extract the coords for the unpublished cache from it. Then they run over to write their names in the logbook, wait for it to be published, then log it online. Sometimes it takes a few days for it to be published resulting in the mismatch dates. This has happened to me a couple of times. I now the trick, but don't use it. I feel it is cheating .

Sorry, but I believe it wont be possible since you (currently) can only make a PQ for a 1000 caches at a time and Utah has over 20,000 (Wow, that's a bunch when compared to where I'm located Hawai'i ~1160 LOL).

Sorry, just saw this post now, hope I'm not too late . Although I have found caches on other islands, I can only really speak for O'ahu caches. So here is my short list of must dos . GC23 - First cache in the state. There are 7-8 other caches on the 5 mile loop trail and in the area (including GC10RJA Hawai'i's CAA cache) GCJ45Y - I love the Ka'ena Point area. Search caches near around this one (the most western cache on O'ahu). This time of year you will probably see a few whales off shore, not to mention Monk Seals on shore. If you rent a Jeep you can drive most of the way out. Also there is GC2EDB a pretty cool cache along the way. GC102CV - Is at Turtle Beach, so named because most of the time there will be Large Native Green Sea Turtles sunning on shore. GC148PG - This cache takes you to a little island off the coast called Chinaman's Hat. Check the tides before heading out. When properly timed you can wade out about 0.25 miles to the island (neck deep in spots, but mostly waist high). GC1Y8N1 - The Pali lookout has some stunning views of the windward side of the island, but none better than from this cache. Wouldn't advise going if it has been raining though. One slip and your dead . GCHAYG - If you have time to do a day hike on O'ahu I would recommend this one. Awesome 360 degree panoramic views from GZ. And if you have more time, hike on over to the third peak (GC1H333) to make it more thrilling. Be careful!!! GC23G7N - Great views and several caches along this short hike. Can be hot during the day with no cover so bring water and sun screen. GCQG9E - Ditto as above except you might spy some whales on this hike . GCG3EE - Cache on top of iconic Diamondhead, nuff said. Except there's a charge to get in: $5 per car I believe. GC1W4ZF - State's only Wherigo and it takes you around 'Iolani Palace the Residence of the Hawaiian Monarchy. GC4786 - Punchbowl: National Cemetery of the Pacific. Great History here. GC1EV6W - Near the cruise ship docks, this cache takes you to the top of Aloha Tower (pay attention to hours of operation) which was once the tallest building on O'ahu . GCPB8P - Great view from GZ. One of my most very favs (that's why I adopted it ). GC134PB - If you are doing the tourist thing you may want to stop here. Nice hide with the owners permission. GC4788 - Awesome views of Honolulu and Waikiki From just above GZ. GC12KJE - Last, but not least, this cache with take you to the ruins of King Kamehameha III's summer palace. Pretty cool spot. There you have it LOL! Email me if you need any questions answered . GeoGerms

Ravens 38

Oops one of the caches were archived so there are only 3 left. GC29FFF - Davey Jones' Lockah GC2F3V0 - Pacific Ave. (Monopoly Series) GC2F3VE - Atlantic Avenue (Monopoly Series)

Out here it is usually an unactivated geocoin.