krisandmel

As the owner of a single cache so far, I guess if I saw in the logs, or was emailed that mine was cracked or otherwise damaged, I'd like to be the one to replace or repair it. After all, it is my property provided for the enjoyment of others. While I do appreciate the OP's sentiment and effort, I probably would've emailed the owner, and watched the logs for a few days. If, after a week or so I don't see a maintenance log, I might go and replace or repair the container on my own accord, and post a note as such. Depends on how cool I think the cache is overall, and how I feel after a week of being away from it. The weather and placement would weigh in as well. In a very wet area or during a rainy season, I might act quicker on someone else's cache, in order to prevent immenent damage to the contents; but if the cache is in Death Valley and the tupperware is cracked, I don't think I'd worry about someone else's cache much more than just posting my observation in my found-log. $.02, ~K

This may have come up before, but it'd be a decent idea to have the GC waypoint marked on all six sides of a box container, and on all visible sides of oblong containers, as well as the www.geo....... label. I would think that most bomb squads would take the time, unless said object was ticking, so do a little research before touching, disrupting, or detonating a 'suspicious' object. Additionally, in small cow-towns like the on in which I live, ~18,000 inhabitants, the police dept is small enough that you can walk in and ask if you can talk to the chief, and they say check out back cause he is changing the oil on one of the cruisers; so, you could print out the cache page for anything you hide and ask him to keep it on file and/or give it to the bomb squad or SWAT for archiving. In addition to possibly keeping a box full of McToys from being blown to smithereens, these contact with law enforcement will aquaint them with geocaching in general, which will help when you are noticed wandering around in the bushes at 11pm with a backpack and something in your hand. $.02, ~K

Interesting variation of responses, thanks! I'm pretty sure my habits will vary and evolve as we continue playing the greatest board game in the world! Geocaching: You can be a move like a knight, bishop, rook, queen or king while playing, but one thing's for sure: When you are out there, you are nobody's pawn! ~K

Thanks for your reply. As an addendum, we don't always take an item for our treasure box. Sometimes we just sign the log, sometimes I just leave something. When we first decided to keep our 'winnings' in a treasure box I did think it'd be nice to have one item from every cache, but realistically, some objects just don't appeal to us, or, like the batteries I mentioned, ought to be used not archived. To take just anything for the sake of having something to keep just didn't seem like the way we want to play. Furthermore, lots of times my cachepack is at home when I decide on the spur of the moment to go caching, so then I only SL since I don't have anything to leave. Along the same line, for a little while I took a picture of each cache and how it was hidden, but then one time I forgot the camera at home, and another time the battery was dead, and then I just kinda let that goal slip away. So, who else has these little caching idiosyncracies? ~K

I'm curious about what the rest of you do with the items you take in trade from a cache. Do you toss it in your cachepack to someday place in another cache, or, do you take the items home for good? Personally, we've been keeping everything we've taken and keep it at home in a 'treasure box' that we can look through and have fun recalling the caches and stories that are linked to these items and the adventures it took to acquire them. That's one reason I avoid taking 'perishables' like AA's; no point in hanging onto some slowly depleting batteries trying to remember which cache they came from when someone else could make use of them in their GPSr. Plus, who ever sat around reminiscing over a couple dead batteries? As with most other aspects of this game, I don't judge how others play it, so whether you keep or trade away I don't care one bit, I'm just curious. It's funny, when I was a little kid I remember the dentist's office had a little treasure box that you could take one item from after you were done with the torture, heh hem, I mean cleaning and, ugh, flouride treatment... Now, a couple decades later I have a similar box filled with many similar prizes. Spider-rings, shiny things, springy things, and quite a few jingly things! Who ever said you have to grow up? ~K

I'd opt for top of the line Gen III night-vision goggles! That'd be fun! ~K

A few years ago I was up in a small parcel of our family land near Onamia, MN. Around dusk I was setting up my campsite, alone, as I was spending a couple days there enjoying the land on my own. I began to feel as though I was being watched, and this feeling grew rapidly over a few minutes. I caught a bit of movement to my side, and as I snapped around to look I saw a dirty and mean, but strong looking, dog sneaking around the perimeter. For some reason I looked intensely around 360 and saw another two large dogs at equal spacing around my area. In the woods I always carry, so I fired three or four rounds into the trees between the dogs, intentionally directing my fire into dirt, not dogs. I wanted to frighten them away without harming them. They did not approach, but had they, I had more rounds at the ready. This sent them running and baying through the woods, and I neither saw nor felt any further sign of them during my stay. ~K

Not advocating stalking people, but I have a technical question. Would a standard GPSr like any of the eTrex style really receive signals that well if strapped to the underside of a vehicle? Seems like if my Vista flops over on the passenger seat it loses itself pretty easily. ~K

Hey I'm in MN as well! Up here in Northfield! So, Hi! Anyway, I've been wondering the same thing about winter and night. Seeing how, now it's almost "night" all the time pretty much, dang it was gloomy today! I've never night-cached, I've had enough trouble spotting them at noon in July to try it blind. Plus, I'm worried about appearing suspicious skulking around in the dark. As far as the winter thing, I would think that after a fresh snow, any cache found in the past few days would show a pretty clear path of footprints right to it, taking away much of the challenge and most of the fun and satisfaction of a feat accomplished. Although, after a fresh snow a cache could also be much harder to find. This is our first winter with a GPSr, so it'll be a new experience to be sure! Hey, this could be the excuse needed to justify night-vision goggles!!! ~K

Aw c'mon, Area 51 is old news donchaknow! I wanna know about Area 52, you know there has to be one, right?!?!? ~K

My point is that to imply that Darwin or his theory is irrelevant because someone as deplorable as Hitler was a fan, is similar to saying that Jesus or Christianity is bogus simply because lunatics like Jones or Koresh were fanatics. BTW, I'm not a member of any organized faith-based organization, so I'm not making this statement based on my personal religious/spiritual holdings; I'm just pointing out a flaw in the logic of the original statement I quoted. I was simply trying to figure out what Darwin and Hitler had to do with busy roads and pointy cacti. Sorry for any misunderstanding. ~K

And Jonestown and Waco were run by 'Christians'. What's your point?

I like the term muggles. But one of my favorite alltime terms I've learned off the 'net is cow-orker. I don't care who you are, that's funny right there! ~K

I like gadgets, so when I got a GPS for the heckuvit I needed something to do with it. And, I like the outdoors and hiking around anyway. And, I like the kinda secret fun of hunting for treasure. And, it gets me out to see areas that I've lived by for thirty years and never seen before. And, it's something I can enjoy with my wife or a friend or alone. And, it's better than work! ~K

"Hunting season" is pretty long, if you take into account all the different species and manner of hunting. To avoid the outdoors for the whole thing would be months and months here in MN. But, I do avoid the woods for the two weekends of firearms deer. I worked one weekend, and the other I was busy anyways so it wasn't a big deal or nuisance to me. For the rest of the late-fall and early-winter hunting season (small game, etc.) I either wear some article of blaze orange, or I walk around calling out "I'm not a squirrel, don't shoot please!" ~K

Thanks for the reply, egami. You are right. I am required to know the ins & outs of my specialty, med/surg, but I know very little about open-heart surgery and am not legally expected to know about that. I guess I would hope most officers are aware of geocaching, but you are absolutely correct, they are not required to. I do see how my geocaching could look fishy, and I would certainly state that I am 'caching if asked by law enforcement. But no, they can't look in my backpack or turn out my pockets for that. And I will respectfully decline. If they say they are going to do it anyway, I will not stop them. At that point, you are right, it is up to the court to sort it out. Thanks for a different point-of-view! -K

Good point! I'm just stating a fact. Just like as an RN I am expected to know what interventions are indicated for certain physical conditions --- police officers are expected to know what behaviors indicate probable criminal activity and what behaviors are appropriate for the setting/recreational-activity. I would never act snotty to a cop, a judge, a minister, a supervisor, or anyone in authority. And I try not to be snotty to anyone else, unless they've dished it out first. But that's generally only in face-to-face conversations with people I know, everyone acts a bit different with friends & family than they do with strangers. On the net, at the various forums I visit, I do my best to convey my opinions respectfully and clearly. Without tone of voice and non-verbal cues such as body language, it is very easy to type something that comes across as mean or rude, or something meant as a joke or chide could be interpreted as an attack on someone's character. I usually proof-read my posts before submitting them to change words and check punctuation and syntax, but I'm sure I still miscommunicate things from time to time. -K

Rather than go through another long post to explain to you further why you are wrong, I suggest you ask some Police Officers, Lawyers, and th ACLU. Just because you disagree, does not make you right. Hogosha, I believe you are incorrect. Please read the following, taken from this page: Street Stop Scenario Not trying to cause an argument here, just trying to clarify a few things. With respect, -Kris

JANX Okay, first of all, I never indicated or advocated curtness or aggression towards police officers. What are you, nuts??? That's a very quick way to not only see the back of a squad, it's a great way to get an obstruction or resisting charge, and you will see jailbars for that behavior. You seem to indicate that the only way to be nice or civil is to agree with authorities and consent to anything at the drop of a hat. That's being passive, not friendly. It is not aggressive or curt to politely decline further voluntary contact with law enforcement. Asking the officer "why am I being stopped" and "am I free to go" are valid questions that if posed properly shouldn't come across as snotty or hostile. I'm not looking to tie up the officer's time and the resources of the public; I just want to be on my way. If all of my posts in this topic were read, it would be clear I stated I would state that I was geocaching, and then I would be on my way. I wouldn't turn, or run, or shout, or any insane thing like that. Each situation would dictate slightly different statements, but it would probably be something like "Oh, hello, I'm geocaching. Nice day for it, huh? Well, see you later." How is that curt or aggressive? Here's a tip: If an officer is asking if he can search you or your backpack, he doesn't have probable cause. If he did, he wouldn't ask, he would just do it. You want references? Great! Look here: FlexYourRights When Can Police Search Me? Why not consent if I'm not doing wrong? When must I show ID? If you need more references, use google and type in "consent to search" and "pedestrian stop". And another thing, wandering around in the woods or parks looking under logs and in nooks & crannies is not suspicious behavior, it's geocaching behavior. Any officer worth his/her badge should have at least heard of geocaching and be familiar with the profile of a 'cacher. You know: a GPSr, probably some cache pages or a PDA with cache data, maybe a backpack or fannypack, a hiking staff maybe, and usually a big smile. So to the little old lady that called it in, it appears suspicious, but then the officer arrives and you state you are geocaching and unless there was just a burglary or something nearby in the preceding hour or two, your statement that you are geocaching is plenty of explanation. Behavior is only suspicious when it does not jive with your actions or the setting. Someone walking in the woods with a rifle in April is suspicious, someone walking the woods with a rifle in September is not. Someone hopping around on a tennis court swinging a baseball bat around at imaginary balls is suspicious, someone hopping around a court hitting a tennis ball with a racket is not. Therefore, someone snooping around in public areas with a GPSr is not necessarily suspicious behavior, and unless additional behavior of yours contradicted your statement to officers that you are geocaching, there should be no further need for investigation. I don't want to be a d!ck to officers; but I won't just bend over and take it anytime I am asked to surrender my rights. Sure, there are times I've allowed an officer to search my person and my vehicle, and there are times I've politely declined the request to allow a search. I was not curt or aggressive, and I was on my way within minutes. Settle down; saying "no" is not the same as shouting "hell no". -K Edited to add: PS: I am not trying to fight with you Janx, I just don't like being told that I'm advocate rudeness or aggression! Especially in cases where, as you put it very well, the people you are dealing with have the capacity to make your future unpleasant. I guess I simply disagree with your statement that refusing a search or declining to answer more questions is automatically rude and uncalled for. Tone of voice and choice of words would of course make a huge difference in the officer's response to your refusal. Similarily, the lack of tone of voice and absent body language in written statements can cause confusion or misconveyance of the author's intent or emotion. (Like on online forums such as this.) Again, I'm not fighting with you, I enjoy reasonable discussion and it's very interesting reading all points of view on this subject. I also will again mention that I'm not a Constitutional law expert and I do not pretend to know all about this field, and I am receptive to change as long as the information is presented respectfully and there are sources to back it up. Peace, -Kris

Please note my highlighting. The vast majority of what you posted is incorrect. The only thing you did get right was the advice to not resist. If a police officer asks you for ID, you do have to provide it. And they do not need your consent for a patdown for safety, and anything they find that you shouldn't have had on you will be admissable. It would be nice if you cited your source on this. Where's the case law? Who says you must hand over ID when on foot? Any lawyers or LEO's here that could answer that? And according to you, if you must submit to a patdown for 'safety' and anything found is chargeable and admissable, wouldn't that mean there is no such thing as unlawful search and seizure? Please clarify your statements. -K

Actually, Ben Franklin did write that on November 11, 1755. The cool thing about Ben Franklin, is that he kept really good notes. It's true that Franklin and others during the Revolution expressed similar variations of that quote. I thought he did too, but according to Wikiquote: I only found that today. Like every wiki-entry, there is some risk of inaccuracy, so I still wouldn't say for sure who said it first. Not arguing with you, just pointing you to my reference. -K

I understand your point, I think, but to really "think of the big picture" you ought to surrender all your personal and human rights. If you are merely part of a group, like a drop of water in the sea, and have no individuality, that would be fine. Another slant on the big picture, is that if you give up your Rights or the protection of your Rights in seemingly harmless small situations, it erodes the foundation of all your Rights. How's that for big picture? Oh, and I'm not an expert in case law, but as I understand Terry v. Ohio and other findings, if you are approached by an officer and he asks if he can talk to you, and you say "no", he has to have the criteria to show he can make a lawful Terry Stop. If he has no probably cause to believe you are criminal, and just acting on a hunch or a vibe, it is unlawful to further question and/or detain you. However, if the same officer says "hey, can I ask you a few questions" and like most polite people you reply "sure", you have just given the officer permission to frisk you to protect his safety. Weapons would then be admissable, but other evidence of criminal activity may or may not be, depending on the opinion of the court. This is getting very off the main topic, about a geocaching ID. I wouldn't make any badge or card claiming "official geocacher" status, as it is pretty easy to make any document you want with a laser printer. In my cachepack I keep some of those brochures from Geocaching U. If the brochure, my GPSr, the swag, the printed listings and the smile on my face can't explain away my activity, there is seriously something wrong. (Again, don't rely on my amateur legal opinion, only a lawyer you are paying can give you proper counsel.) -Kris

I just want to clarify, I'm not advocating "messing with" the cops or treating them like jackbooted thugs out to ruin your fun. I respect the profession, and I wish local government prioritized funding better so we could have many many more on the street at all times. I am only trying to convey that unless you protect your freedoms, you lose them. Geocaching properly is not illegal in the least. If it was a major problem, it would be pretty simple for the government to 'turn off' all GPS signals to the public. As long as you are geocaching properly, your status is no different than that of a volleyball player, a chess player, or a hiker. No need to rationalize our recreation to the authorities. And no need to feel like a criminal when treated like one. If I'm out 'caching and am asked what I am doing by a police officer, or a game warden, I will truthfully tell them. Then I will be on my way. No further questions. I will step around the individual, and continue with my recreation. If I am physically detained, I will not resist. But I won't say a word, and the burden is on them to justify my detention. It would be a hassle, I might see the back of a squad car, but as I had done nothing wrong, I would be released at some point. It would be inconvenient to be sure, but that is the price of protecting ones liberty. It seems most people think they are required to identify themselves and explain what they are doing to any officer of the law. Not so. There's plenty of case law to back that up. (As stated in my prior post, if you are driving in public, the rules are much different.) Although incorrectly attributed directly to Ben Franklin, this quote nevertheless is quite significant: "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." In a nutshell: They are your Rights, use them or lose them. Will your protection of your rights cause you inconvenience? Many times, yes. Is it worth it? Every time, yes. $.02, -K

As far as I know, if you are just walking around (that is, not operating a motor vehicle on public roads) you don't have to give you ID to anyone, police officers included. This is not (the former) East Germany, you don't have to present your "papers" if you don't want to. However, if you choose to withhold your identity from the police, there are situations in which you can and will be detained until they can determine you aren't doing anything wrong. So, in general, it is more convenient to just hand over your license and try to explain truthfully what you are doing. You also do not have to answer any questions put to you by police officers and you cannot be searched/frisked if you are just walking around. It gets into grey areas, but if you are walking and an officer approaches and asks if he can talk to you, and you consent, you have also just consented to being patted down. Since you consented to the conversation, you just gave the officer permission to pat you down for his/her own safety. So, if you're walking and don't want to be questioned or searched, when the officer asks if he can talk to you, you politely say "no". If the officer continues anyway, anything discovered in their questions or search is inadmissable. So, if you did say "no", but they continue, DO NOT resist. Like I said, there are some grey areas here, and it's getting late in my work 'day', so I'm tired, and I haven't read Terry v. Ohio lately, but I think I got most of that right. Please correct me if I am wrong. Oh, and as always, anything you read on the net is a poor substitute for a proper legal opinion from lawyers or past case rulings. -K

Thanks for the replies! The hierarchy makes sense, especially now that I've learned that some roads and features might be slightly off between the different mapsets, it would surely be annoying to have ghosting or double vision on the map page. -K