Rusty & Libby

I haven't gotten any of my queries since Tuesday 7/8. I was just browsing the forums to see if I could find mention of why??? -------------------------------------------------- Friends don't let friends cache locationless! Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page Michigan Geocaching Organization

November 13, 2000 Does that make me a Geo GrandCodger? -------------------------------------------------- Friends don't let friends cache locationless! Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page Michigan Geocaching Organization

We have many people ask questions on the Michigan Geocaching forums that say they will never go back to the gc.com forums because of the rude treatment they received. The problem seems to have gotten increasingly worse in the last year. -------------------------------------------------- Friends don't let friends cache locationless! Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page Michigan Geocaching Organization

quote:Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):Hmm... Maybe. I'll look into it. I will probably filter out Locationless caches in the near future (Rusty) Jeremy Irish Groundspeak - The Language of Location Thank you for being so responsive on what surely is a hot-button issue. All in all the increased page speed, and cleaner format are welcome despite the minor annoyances(sp?). -------------------------------------------------- Friends don't let friends cache locationless! Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page Michigan Geocaching Organization

quote:Originally posted by Jeremy: quote:Originally posted by Rusty:I also have NO INTEREST WHATSOEVER in seeing locationless caches. No need to yell. Just do a new search and filter your request by type. Jeremy Irish Groundspeak - The Language of Location Sorry, my raised voice was simply my distaste for that cache type which has been beat to death Your reply though misses the point. I want to see all caches except locationless. The only option if you don't want to see a non-geocache is to search for all the traditional, then all the multi's, then all the micros, etc. It would be nice to see some of the pocket query options available in the regular searches. -------------------------------------------------- Friends don't let friends cache locationless! Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page Michigan Geocaching Organization

I also have NO INTEREST WHATSOEVER in seeing locationless caches. I should be able to click off the caches I DON'T want as opposed (or in addition) to selecting the subset I do want to see. -------------------------------------------------- Friends don't let friends cache locationless! Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page Michigan Geocaching Organization

Is there a way to not see caches I've found or hidden when I click on Nearest Caches from My Cache page? At least in the old system they were grouped, this new format makes that particular link almost worthless. I like the format but not this quirk. -------------------------------------------------- Friends don't let friends cache locationless! Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page Michigan Geocaching Organization

Here is the letter we received: ============================================= Thank you for your recent letter of April 8, 2003, concerning our telephone conversation in March regarding "geocaching" activities being allowed on state lands. Michigan Department of Natural Resources (DNR) has just received notice from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service that geocaching on Division of Wildlife land has been reviewed in Ohio and found to be a use that is incompatable with the purpose for which these lands were purchased and managed. In Michigan, about 400,000 acres of state game areas and wildlife areas are funded in part with Pittman-Robertson (P-R) Wildlife Restoration grants. Geocaching would like conflict with hunting and other wildlife-related recreation, wildlife nesting, and will divert wildlife personnel from wildlife management on these lands. Geocaching on state lands administered by Wildlife Division would jeopardize Michigan's eligibiliy for P-R grants. The Wildlife Division has determined that this activity is an incompatitble use on P-R administered lands (wildlife areas). Therefore, any use permits issued for geocaching activities on DNR Wildlife administered lands as of this date are hereby rescinded immediately. I would ask that those caches already placed on these lands be archived immediately. Additionally, we ask that a statement be placed on your web site that reflects this recent decision. Sincerely, Scott Whitcomb, Assistant Field Coordinator Wildlife Division Michigan Department of Natural Resources =========================================== Mr. Whitcomb delivered this to us in person at our CITO event. He was very nice about it and saw our point of view but his hands were tied by the federal regulations. Rusty... -------------------------------------------------- Friends don't let friends cache locationless! Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page Michigan Geocaching Organization

Here is a copy of the Ohio letter that was sent to our DNR last week: ============================================= FWS/AFA Mr. Michael J. Budzik, Chief Division of Wildlife Ohio Department of Natural Resources 1840 Belcher Drive Columbus, Ohio 43224 Dear Mr. Budzik, This responds to your inquiry of March 6, 2002, in which you asked whether geocaching activities could be allowed on Ohio Division of Wildlife (DOW) lands funded in part with Pittman-Robertson (P-R) Wildlife Restoration grants. Our conclusion is that geocaching is incompatable with the purposes for which Ohio DOW purchased, or is managing, lands under the P-R grants(50 CFR 80.14) This conclusion is based on: 1. The likely situations where geocaching activities will conflict with hunting and other wildlife related recreation. 2. The likely situations where geocaching activities will interfere with wildlife nesting and breeding, and, 3. The certainty that DOW property managers time will be diverted from wildlife resource management to managing the geocaching activities on their wildlife properties(50 CFR 80.4) If the DOW were to allow geocaching on its P-R funded wildlife management areas, it may create a situation that would jeopardize Ohio's eligibility for P-R grants(50 CFR 80.4). Please let us know if you need a more detailed response. Sincerely, Bradley V. Johnson Chief, Division of Federal Aid ============================================== Any typos are probably mine because I transcribed it from a scan. Do you know who Mr. Budzig is? That may be the person to ask (or avoid) in Ohio. -------------------------------------------------- Friends don't let friends cache locationless! Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page Michigan Geocaching Organization

I don't think a permit is going to be an option. If you read about the Pittman-Robertson Act in Shecacher's links you will see that these are not funded for multi-use. Anything that is not in line with wildlife restoration is not allowed. They have made virtually no exceptions in over 60yrs so don't hold your breath. The fact that we are not being singled out makes me feel better about it but it still sucks. -------------------------------------------------- Friends don't let friends cache locationless! Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page Michigan Geocaching Organization

quote:Originally posted by shecacher: quote:Originally posted by Rusty:There is an irony in this. The State Game Area we were cleaning at our CITO event has the North Country Scenic Trail running almost the entire length of it. Somehow they got a varience to put that thru there. I would have to ask: Did this area recieve any P-R Act funds? If so, did the managers use any funds obtained from hunting and fishing license funds for this trail? If they did use hunting and fishing license funds, it may be a diversion in violation of 50 CFR 80.4. NOTE: CFR = The Code of Federal Regulations I can say positively that this section receives P-R funds and the trail runs thru the center of it for about 3 miles. In answer to your other questions I don't know and I'm not sure how to find the answer. I think the National Park Service is the managing authority for the National Scenic Trails but I'm not sure. Does anyone else know? Shecacher, I'm curious about your background? You seem to have a lot of expertise in this area and your comments are right on with everything we have been told. Do you work with this or are you just an excellent surfer? -------------------------------------------------- Friends don't let friends cache locationless! Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page Michigan Geocaching Organization

quote:Originally posted by Marky: quote:Originally posted by trippy1976:This means that activities like hiking, geocaching, mountain biking, kite flying, etc. are not acceptable uses of this land. This is the key statement here. I would have a problem if they were banning geocaching, but allowing hiking, but if hiking is not allowed, obviously geocaching isn't either. Maybe hunting related caches might work though. I've been meaning to make a duck decoy cache... --Marky "All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer with a backlit GPSr" There is an irony in this. The State Game Area we were cleaning at our CITO event has the North Country Scenic Trail running almost the entire length of it. Somehow they got a varience to put that thru there. -------------------------------------------------- Friends don't let friends cache locationless! Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page Michigan Geocaching Organization

The webpage that Shecacher links above is excellent. This is not just an arbitrary law or ruling against geocaching, they are being very consistant with past history. -------------------------------------------------- Friends don't let friends cache locationless! Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page Michigan Geocaching Organization

quote:Originally posted by trippy1976: quote:Originally posted by Johnnyvegas:My thought is, If you had never approched them they would not have made it an issue. We approached them because it was communicated to us that geocaching would be banned on all DNR lands. What would you have done? Sit idly by? To take that one step further, we did not approach the USF&WS and look what happened. The people we approached were ready to work with us but had to yield to the federal decision. We learned one lesson here. Make sure you know who actually has final authority for any land in question. Just because the word "State" is in the title doesn't mean they are the ones making all the decisions. Their is still more research to be done on this decision. We don't know if there is any wiggle room or how far-reaching and inclusive the ruling is. -------------------------------------------------- Friends don't let friends cache locationless! Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page Michigan Geocaching Organization

quote:Originally posted by Northern-Lights:If what has been said is totally true, and all State and Federal lands are now off limits, then I think a serious consideration should be given to filing an injunction and a lawsuit. These lands are "our" lands too. There is no difference between hiking, and geo-caching; between bike riding and geo-caching, etc. ALL of us need to start writing our representatives and screaming bloody murder!! No! it definetly does not make all State and Fed land off limits. One thing we did learn Saturday was that there are more departments that you can count on your hands and the decision of one has nothing to do with the others. In Michigan this ONLY effects State Game Areas and a few other specific spots that have yet to be clarified. It does not effect State Parks or Forests, those have separate management. We will be posting a Michigan announcement on MiGO as soon as we have a defined list of areas. Shecacher is right on and those are the exact acts that were quoted to us as reason. The land is managed exclusively for hunting, fishing, and wildlife. They are the ones paying the bills so anything not inline with those activities is likely to be nixed. -------------------------------------------------- Friends don't let friends cache locationless! Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page Michigan Geocaching Organization

Our DNR contact said the ruling came out of Minnesota and I was just doing some surfing. USF&WS Region 3 is based in MN and covers the Midwest. I found some Ohio rulings from last Monday but no mention of geocaching. That may be where it will show up. Check out the Financial Page to see why they have so much say. This may also only have regional implications and not be a national rule. Time will tell. BTW..Pater47, I tried checking on the situation in Mississippi and you're right. The USF&W has a presence there but it doesn't look like your state has sold its soul to the feds like we have up here. Lucky you! -------------------------------------------------- Friends don't let friends cache locationless! Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page Michigan Geocaching Organization

Its true. The chairperson of the Michigan DNR's land management committee stopped by at our CITO event yesterday. He spoke with the MiGO steering committee for about an hour. He brought along a copy of the fax they received Wednesday from the US Fish & Wildlife service. Team Sandrich has a copy and I'll leave it up to him post the text but they ruled on a case in Ohio that geocaching does not fit in with their mandate for lands they manage. In Michigan that means the State Game Areas, Wildlife Areas, and some rec areas. Most of these are in the lower third of the state. We are waiting for more details. The ruling affects us in Michigan because our lands are co-managed, 25% of the money comes from the state and 75% from the feds. Money talks, guess who has the most say? Your Ohio contact may not have heard about it because it just came out on Wednesday. We had just gotten a preliminary thumbs up the day before and this came as a total surprise to all of our state contacts. From looking at the USF&W site there is a considerable delay on news being posted. I can only assume that if they want their guidelines to be enforced they will have to make them known. -------------------------------------------------- Friends don't let friends cache locationless! Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page Michigan Geocaching Organization

quote:Originally posted by Mr. Snazz: quote:Originally posted by Rusty:This website is a database, that's what they are good at, period. Napster was just "a database" too, look what happened to them... precedent shows that the courts are less willing to grant common carrier status these days. Besides, and I am not a lawyer, but I think that Groundspeak gave up any chance at being just a database (common carrier) the moment that they set their first guideline... I read recently that Napster was coming back, but who cares? They were not that good at what they did, they were simply first. There are any number of alternate 'databases' to chose from nowdays. I support this site and its the only database I use, but I ruffle at the opinion that geocaching.com IS geocaching. -------------------------------------------------- Friends don't let friends cache locationless! Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page Michigan Geocaching Organization

quote:Originally posted by BrianSnat:I don't mean to rain on your parade, but caches must be approved to be posted on this site. A travelling cache may conform when first posted, but subsequent finder/hiders have no such process to go through. A finder/hider can place the cache next to a RR bridge, in a National Park, or on private property without any controls. I can see why this website has banned them and I'm surprised it didn't happen earlier. Your argument is inconsistant, I could place a multi cache with the posted coordinates being totally legal and the final cache could be buried in the middle of a rr track running through a Nat'l Park and it would be approved with no problem. Should we now ban multi-caches? I could place a cache on private property and have it approved. Maybe we should ban traditionals also. GC.com has no more control over placement of a regular cache than they would a traveler. This website is a database, that's what they are good at, period. Rusty... -------------------------------------------------- Friends don't let friends cache locationless! Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page Michigan Geocaching Organization

quote:Originally posted by StayFloopy: It might be more appropriate to StayFloppy -------------------------------------------------- Friends don't let friends cache locationless! Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page Michigan Geocaching Organization

Here in Michigan they have a program called Adopt-a-Forest with funding for volunteer cleanup projects. They have been extremely helpful and appreciative. Several other states (Iowa, Mississippi, Illinois, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Missouri, Oregon, Washington, Texas) have similar programs and are linked from the Michigan site Cleanforests.org If you setup a trashout project thru one of these links let me know and I will pass it on to the Michigan coordinator since she made a point of telling me to pass on the links to their sister projects. Rusty... -------------------------------------------------- Friends don't let friends cache locationless! Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page Michigan Geocaching Organization

Here in Michigan they have a program called Adopt-a-Forest with funding for volunteer cleanup projects. They have been extremely helpful and appreciative. Several other states (Iowa, Mississippi, Illinois, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Missouri, Oregon, Washington, Texas) have similar programs and are linked from the Michigan site Cleanforests.org If you setup a trashout project thru one of these links let me know and I will pass it on to the Michigan coordinator since she made a point of telling me to pass on the links to their sister projects. Rusty... -------------------------------------------------- Friends don't let friends cache locationless! Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page Michigan Geocaching Organization

Is this a magellan problem? I have had similar things with my Sportrak Pro but didn't realize it was mfg specific. A couple weeks ago we went out to place a cache and it was showing us 597 miles from our car! Even after we got back to the car (glad it wasn't 600 miles away) and were driving down the open road it was off. These forums have gotten so off topic anymore that I rarely check them so I didn't realize others were having the same trouble. Rusty... -------------------------------------------------- Friends don't let friends cache locationless! Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page Michigan Geocaching Organization

quote:Originally posted by rayt333:If I was to get 30 caches in one day I would have to cover close to 250 miles, and would have to find and log each cache in less then 10 minutes and get back on the road again. The closest cache to me is 20 miles away, but it is about a 40 mile trip to get there and across secondary roads most of the way (60 minute drive) Some of us don't live near big cities with 30 caches within a 10 mile drive. Sure I could drive 100 miles to a big city and do my caching there but I prefer the rural locations better. You should try it, you might like it. The last two years we have drove accross the state to the Detroit area on Labor Day weekend for 1 or 2 days of caching. It's a blast going to a new area that's a little different than you are used to. Once you get into the woods the only thing different is the gunfire Rusty... ...the gunfire is in the rural areas not the city! -------------------------------------------------- Friends don't let friends cache locationless! Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page Michigan Geocaching Organization

quote:Originally posted by Elias:I'm not sure who's who or even who Dan is, but I can tell you that this is the first I've heard of this. -Elias This seems incredulous, do you people live under a rock? -------------------------------------------------- Friends don't let friends cache locationless! Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page Michigan Geocaching Organization