Quest Master

We seem to be getting confused here. Firstly, Mr. Meade did say that the ban on ammo boxes would be lifted but he made it clear that the forms that he gave us were just a draft and that no final decisions had been made with regard to ammo cans or anything else. It would appear that it has been decided that clear plastic containers must be used for geocaches in state parks. I don't like it and I am inclined to fight it but I think we have to accept that this is the rule for now. I have one ammo-can cache in a state park which was registered with a different form that didn't have the no ammo cans rule and two more ammo-can caches that I haven't registered yet. I did get verbal permission from park managers for all of these caches so they have my name and contact info. I'm going to wait for them to contact me before I do anything about registering my caches in the parks. I don't think they have figured out exactly how they are going to deal with geocaching just yet. It will be very interesting to see what happens next! Second, the Bureau of Forestry never has had any rule against ammo cans but their current registration form does contain a lot of legalese including a provision that the cache owner may be held liable for "the costs associated with site damage repair and the removal of hazardous or illegal material". I am a bit uneasy about putting my signature on their document. Johnny

I have some "news" to report from various sources. 1. I was contacted a couple of weeks ago by the assistant manager for Ohiopyle State Park about possibly doing some sort of a presentation about geocaching to DCNR personnel. I lost my notes on this conversation and my memory fails me. I can't remember if he said if it was going to State College or Harrisburg or if it was scheduled for somtime in January or March. He said that he was going to send me something on this but so far I haven't received anything. I guess I will have to try getting in touch with him again to find out what the deal is. 2. An employee of the DCNR Bureau of Forestry informed me that there is some kind of a meeting about geocaching taking place on October 23 in Harrisburg. The person in charge is Stacey White. The representative from the district office in Moraine State Park is Matt Marcinic. I am trying to find out if we can have a geocacher present at the meeting to answer questions and offer input. I hope that others on this board will also try to find out more about this meeting so that we can get somebody there to represent us. 3. A fellow geocacher has reported to me that he got forms from a state park office that did not have the legalese stuff but did still contain the prohibition against ammo cans. The form that he described (although I did not see it for myself) was not exactly like any of the forms that have already been posted on these discussion boards. It would be helpful if somebody who lives close to a state park would pick up a current form and post it here for us. 4. The Bureau of Forestry has removed at least two caches from State Forest Lands because the caches were not properly registered. This information is described in detail in another topic started by Smooch. Could somebody who knows how better to work this computer thing please post the links to this thread here for me? I'm too busy to figure it out right now! 5. Geocaching.com is thinking about providing us some kind of special forum where we can post rules, registration forms, etc. Mr. Leprechaun started a topic on this issue. I think we need to do something. Could somebody post the link for this thread too? 6. Has anyone heard from Mr. Meade lately? I think that he has grown weary of the flood of email on the geocaching subject. I arranged to get a free premium membership from geocaching.com for the DCNR so that nobody could fly under the radar of the authorities with a members-only cache. I pitched the idea to Mr. Meade but I never got a response. 7. I invited the DCNR Bureaus of Forestry and State Parks to send representatives to my event geocache on October 6. I got no reply from Parks and Forestry declined but I did get the name of a real live person at the Bureau of Forestry in Harrisburg: Matt Beaver Recreation Section Operations & Recreation Division Bureau of Forestry Department of Conservation & Natural Resources forestrecreation@state.pa.us Johnny [This message was edited by Quest Master on September 30, 2002 at 03:41 PM.]

quote:I think it's pretty clear that their little hissy fit has far more to do with their elitism than with any actual concern for the cave in question. You are entitled to your opinion but it is not so clear to me. Perhaps my judgement has been clouded by the fact that I have actually seen all of the good work that these "jerks" have done at Tytoona Cave. I reiterate that there IS a difference between the vague location information on their website and the very specific location information provided by a cache page (virtual or otherwise). It is their position that this information published on the internet might attract unwanted attention to the cave. They are not just concerned about geocachers. This information could be used by anyone including the party crowd which has done great damage to the cave and preserve area. I do not have the wisdom to know if they are right or wrong about the potential for a geocache to create new problems at Tytoona Cave but I will not presume to know better than they how to protect THEIR cave that they have worked so hard to preserve. Johnny

I'm glad that you asked. The Tytoona Cave preserve was purchased by the National Speleogical Society (NSS) with dues money and donations from "hysterical cavers" and "arrogant elitists". The Tytoona Cave management is a group of volunteers that have worked hard make improvements to the preserve such as constructing a trail from the roadway to the cave, erecting an information kiosk, cleaning up trash left by inconsiderate persons (this site was quite the party spot at one time), and removing spraypaint graffiti from in and around the cave. I do think that their knee-jerk overreaction does have something to do with a "fear of democritization of information" which pervades caver culture but to say that these people (who I do not know personally) are not genuinely concerned about conservation and preservation of caves is just plain WRONG in this particular case. They are the legitimate authority here and could close or restrict public access to the site. You should care about what they desire or the day will surely come that nobody will be allowed to go into this place. There seem to be a lot of people on these boards who have issues with authority. Please substitute "should" for "have to" in my previous post and see if you can deal with it. If you still have problems, get help. Johnny [This message was edited by Quest Master on September 22, 2002 at 03:32 PM.]

I think that this particular cache had to be taken down from geocaching.com. It is the desire of the Tytoona Cave Preserve management that there should not be a geocache, virtual or otherwise, at Tytoona Cave. It might appear that there could be no harm in having a virtual there since the area is open to the public but if you reread the NSS management plan or any other stuff on the internet about Tytoona Cave, you will discover that there are no specific maps or directions for getting to the cave. I might agree that it is only a subtle difference between the vague location information published elsewhere and the very specific coordinates and maps available on geocaching.com but it is an important difference in the considered opinion of the Tytoona Preserve management. It is a standard practice of cavers not to publish this information for sensitive cave areas such as Tytoona. I don’t care to discuss whether or not geocachers would or wouln’t have a significant negative impact on the preserve and I don’t want to begin another yet another discussion about whether keeping a place inaccessible by keeping it a secret is an effective conservation practice. None of this is relevant here. We can debate the pros and cons of whether it might be a good idea for there to be a geocache at Tytoona Cave until we are blue in the face but we cannot ignore the fact that the manager of the preserve is opposed to the idea. We have to acknowledge and respect that he is the legitimate authority here. He is on the front lines of a conservation effort and is charged with protecting the cave. We have to acknowledge and respect that also. Who is better qualified to decide if geocaching is an appropriate activity at this site? Did the guy overreact and have a hissy fit. I think that he did. But another fact that we cannot ignore is that a geocacher started it all by hiding a cache without asking permission first. We’re not about breaking the rules. Let this one go. Johnny

Shoebox must have been sending me a telepathic message or something. I actually pitched this idea to Mr. Meade on August 21. I suggested to him that he should make it a requirement to put some kind of statement on the cache description page which would say something to the effect that geocaches in state parks must be registered. I really don't think that there is any other effective way to make people aware of the policy. It is regrettable that people do not go the the park office and ask permission before hiding a cache but I believe that this is and continues to be the rule rather than the exception for new cache hides. I suspect that the cachers reading this message board are in the minority and that the majority are still completely unaware of the policy. As Shoebox has suggested, if there were a way for us to identify unregisterd geocaches, the geocaching community could and should be able to police itself by encouraging those persons with unauthorized geocaches to register them. The park managers should not have to check the website every so often to see if any new unauthorized caches have appeared in their park. We should be able to do that for them. They can concentrate on checking to see that the geocaches are not hidden in inappropriate areas. Johnny

Good News! Mr. Meade has indicated to me that he is now inclined to remove the prohibition against ammo cans from the final draft of the policy. He has said that he received quite a few emails on this subject and decided that they would be okay after discussing the matter with some of the park rangers who have caches in their parks. I think that we all would agree that he did have a valid concern and was just doing his job when he added that item to the policy. Search out the topic "Violent Death of a Cache" and give it a read if you think otherwise. I suggested that he might instead prohibit the hiding of geocaches in/on/near structures or in campgrounds or picnic areas since I think that these are the kinds of places that a cache might be discovered by accident and cause a panic regardless of the type of container used. The lesson to take from this is that we have at least one person at the DCNR who is listening to us. The emails are working! It has been suggested that we should have an organization and should speak with one voice but I prefer that it should be handled this way for the time being. I prefer that nobody should speak for me and that I should not speak for anyone else. It is better if the bureaucrats will consider the good, the bad, and the ugly from geocachers and park managers and come up with a policy that everyone can live with. Mr. Meade has promised that he will let us know when a final version of the policy and permission form is ready. Speak out if there is anything that you don't like. If you have a cache in a state park that you did not get permission to hide then it is high time that you introduce yourself to the park manager and explain geocaching to them. It will go a long way toward getting this game to work in the parks. Bad News! I got the forms from the State Forest this past Thursday. The are exactly as Cooper has posted them. Thanks Coop! It really does seem that Parks & Forests must have been working together on this since the policy and permission forms are almost identical. It couldn't have been an accident. I think that they probably share a common starting point which may be the same office of legal counsel. I do not indend to sign this form. I am hoping that they will follow the lead of the Bureau of State parks and adopt a policy and permission form similar to what they come up with. I have to say that I am going to be really mad if they confiscate my cache in the meantime! I'm sure it won't come to that. The must have better things to do. I really like the idea of having volunteers within the geocaching community to help the DCNR to regulate geocaching. It just so happens that the Bureau of Forestry sent me a "Conservation Volunteer" form with their piece of crap "Geocache Identification Form and Agreement". Hmmmmm.... Johnny

Intolerable! It appears that the Bureau of Forestry got their permission form from the same place that the State Parks people got theirs. That thing was a piece of crap and this is too! Maybe the consulted with the same office of legal council. Who knows? I think that they borrowed from a gas well drilling contract to come up with this one. It's actually pretty funny in a tragic sort of way. It would have been nice if Cooper could have posted the whole agreement here on the forums but he probably typed his fingers to the bone just doing the half of it! Cachier is exactly right. We did it before and we can do it again. We have to get the email campaign going again. Since we do not yet know the name of a contact person at the Bureau of Forestry, I would recommend that correspondence be directed to: forestrecreation@state.pa.us I have had something of a dialoge going through this channel. The district foresters such as Mr. Mishler are generally going to be too busy and not have the authority to deal with this issue. They tend to be more concerned about timber resources and land managment issues. Forestry may be more difficult to deal with since recreational issues are a lower priority for them. I have to believe that we can work something out with these guys also. They too will realize that a geocache is not a gas well and should not be treated as such. They may not like it but the state forests are public land and it is a part of their mandate to provide opportunites for outdoor recreation. They know well that the state forests belog to all of us and that we can take up the matter with our local legislators if necessary. Johnny

I got a reply from the Bureau of Forestry about the missing statement. I tried to post it here yesterday but the text of it had a "trigger word" which prevented it from being put up on this forum in a timely manner. I guess it is still stuck in the Groundspeak "message queue" somewhere. The gist of it is that the statement which appeared on Buxley's was also emailed to geocaching.com and two other geocaching websites on July 26. I will not mention them by name because I have a hunch that this may be the "trigger word". This confirms that the State Forests have a policy and that it has already been put into effect. I went to the District Office of Forbes State Forest today to obtain a copy of the policy and permission form. The assistant district ranger there told me that he did not have a printed copy of the forms to give to me yet. He promised to mail them. One would think that they would not establish a policy and set deadlines for compliance without public input first. They could at least let us see their rules before they begin to enforce them. I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Ready... Fire... Aim... [This message was edited by Quest Master on August 06, 2002 at 01:44 PM.]

Dear Mr. xxxxxxxx: The Geocaching Guidelines, Identification Form and Agreement are currently available to those individuals wishing placement of a geocache on Pennsylvania State Forest lands by visiting one of our local forest district offices. The office locations are available at the following website address: http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/forestry/dcontacts.htm. There is no fee associated with geocache placement on Pennsylvania State Forest lands. The statement below is what was electronically mailed to four geocaching websites. STATEMENT MISSING I have requested that the anonomous person that sent this get back to me with the missing statement. It's probably pretty close to what appeared on Buxley's. mailto: forestrecreation@state.pa.us Johnny

Mr. Meade (Bureau of State Parks) explains the Cache Identification Number: Our intent with the ID# was to have the park office assign a number to aid with identification of the cache should someone come across it accidentally. Or, another method of identification being considered is what you mention in your email. The ID# block on the ID Form has been removed and replaced with "site name" as we agree with your comment that an assigned # would require the cacher to make two trips to the park office. As I mentioned in one of my previous email, our main concern is having a visitor coming across a cache box, and assuming it may be some sort of detonation device. I know this may sound like we are being alarmists, but since the events of 9/11 this type of scenario is possible. Having an identification name on the cache box would allow the park office or ranger to associate the box with a cache. Johnny

Mr. Meade has provided me with the latest DRAFT of the new geocaching policy for state parks and the latest DRAFT of the Geocache Identification Form. I am very pleased that they have removed the legal stuff . I emailed him to ask about the "Cache ID Number" but he didn't get back to me yet. We'll probably have to wait until Monday to find out what they mean by this. I am concerned that they may be talking about the geocaching.com waypoint number which wouldn't work since it cannot be known until the cache is listed on the website. Another possibility is a number assigned by the park managers. I guess that we would be required to get a number from the park office in advance so that we could write it on the cache container before we hide it in the park. It probably is not wise to speculate. We'll just have to wait and see what he says. In the meantime, he has said that they will be meeting again early next week to discuss this further. Speak now or forever hold your peace! Here are the documents: Did I mention that these are just a DRAFT. This means that NOBODY should be printing them out and sending them in. DRAFT DCNR - Bureau of State Parks Geocaching Guidelines BACKGROUND Geocaching has become a new endeavor on Pennsylvania’s state park and forest lands. The idea is to have individuals set up caches all over the state and share the locations of these caches and the coordinates on the internet. Global Positioning System (GPS) users can then use the location coordinates to find the caches. Once found, a cache may provide a wide variety of cache items. The cache visitor is asked to leave an item in the cache for the one they remove. The Geocache community uses the Internet extensively for posting cache locations. The following guidelines apply to all geocaches on state park land: ? Placement of geocaches on lands administered by the DCNR - Bureau of State Parks requires written authorization of the Park Manager or designee. This authorization will be considered through a review process, which insures its location is compatible with other park activities. ? A geocache contact person responsible for necessary upkeep of the site must be identified prior to approval by the Park Manager or designee. ? There should be no earth disturbance or vegetative impact to any approved site. Nor should the cache be readily discernable by the general public. ? Cache(s) shall not be placed in a military ammo box or PVC pipe. A transparent type container is required (Tupperware, Gladware, Pretzel Barrel, etc.) ? Cache ID number must be clearly visible on the exterior of all geocache containers. The ID number should be placed on container(s) using a permanent type marker or weatherproof tag. ? The cache may not be placed within Natural Areas or Wild Plant Sanctuaries, or on stream banks, riparian zones, wetlands, prehistoric and historic archaeological sites, exemplary natural communities, ecologically sensitive areas, unique geological features, Dam structures, or unsafe areas. ? A cache may remain at the approved site for no more than five years at which time it must be removed, the site restored to its original condition, and the Park Manager informed in writing of the removal. This will control cache abandonment and assist in preventing renegade trail development to the site. ? Unauthorized geocaches on state park lands will be removed and treated as abandoned property, and the responsible person may be cited for littering. ? Responsible party shall delete site location(s) from all publications and/or website(s) within seven days of removal. COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION & NATURAL RESOURCES BUREAU OF STATE PARKS GEOCACHE IDENTIFICATION FORM This agreement is made this _____ day of _____________________, by and between the Department of Conservation and Natural Resources, Bureau of State Parks (”DEPARTMENT”) and _____________________________ (“RESPONSIBLE PARTY”). The RESPONSIBLE PARTY desires to place a geocache at the following location(s) in ________________________________________ State Park: SITE NAME (if any): ___________________________________________ ID # _______________ TOWNSHIP: _________________________________________________ COUNTY: ___________________________________________________ LATITUDE: __________________________________________________ LONGITUDE: ________________________________________________ ADDITIONAL INSTRUCTIONS (if needed)_________________________ ___________________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________ SITE NAME (if any): __________________________________________ ID # _______________ TOWNSHIP: ________________________________________________ COUNTY: __________________________________________________ LATITUDE: _________________________________________________ LONGITUDE: _______________________________________________ ADDITIONAL INSTRUCTIONS (if needed)________________________ __________________________________________________________ __________________________________________________________ SITE NAME (if any): _________________________________________ ID # _______________ TOWNSHIP: _______________________________________________ COUNTY: _________________________________________________ LATITUDE: ________________________________________________ LONGITUDE: ______________________________________________ ADDITIONAL INSTRUCTIONS (if needed)_______________________ _________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________ SITE NAME (if any): _________________________________________ ID # _______________ TOWNSHIP: _______________________________________________ COUNTY: _________________________________________________ LATITUDE: ________________________________________________ LONGITUDE: ______________________________________________ ADDITIONAL INSTRUCTIONS (if needed)_______________________ _________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________ The DEPARTMENT is willing to permit the RESPONSIBLE PARTY to place the above geocache(s), subject to the following conditions: 1. Geocache container description (size, color, container, material): ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ 2. This permission is in effect for the period beginning _______________ through _____________________ (not to exceed 5 years); however, the permission may be revoked at any time by the DEPARTMENT acting through a Park Manager or designee. 3. REPONSIBLE PARTY is not permitted to do the following: a. Earth disturbance or vegetative impact to the approved geocache site. b. Move or alter approved geocache location. c. Allow the insertion of hazardous or pornographic materials in the geocache container. d. Place cache(s) on a Dam structure d. Other (state “no other conditions” or list other conditions): ___________________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________ 4. The cache may not be placed within Natural Areas or Wild Plant Sanctuaries, or on stream banks, riparian zones, wetlands, prehistoric and historic archaeological sites, exemplary natural communities, ecologically sensitive areas, unique geological features, Dam structures, or unsafe areas. 5. Park Manager or designee shall be notified by the RESPONSIBLE PARTY when the cache is moved or removed. __________________________________ ________________________________ Printed Name of Responsible Party Responsible Party signature ___________________________________ Street ___________________________________ City State Zip (____)_____________________________ Phone Email address ___________________________________ Park Manager or designee date Original – Park Office files Copies to – Regional Park Office, Central Office Operations Section It bears repeating one more time for good measure: These documents are draft versions of the policy and permission form. Don't Use Them! Johnny

Mr. Meade has provided me with the latest DRAFT of the new geocaching policy for state parks and the latest DRAFT of the Geocache Identification Form. I am very pleased that they have removed the legal stuff . I emailed him to ask about the "Cache ID Number" but he didn't get back to me yet. We'll probably have to wait until Monday to find out what they mean by this. I am concerned that they may be talking about the geocaching.com waypoint number which wouldn't work since it cannot be known until the cache is listed on the website. Another possibility is a number assigned by the park managers. I guess that we would be required to get a number from the park office in advance so that we could write it on the cache container before we hide it in the park. It probably is not wise to speculate. We'll just have to wait and see what he says. In the meantime, he has said that they will be meeting again early next week to discuss this further. Speak now or forever hold your peace! Here are the documents: Did I mention that these are just a DRAFT. This means that NOBODY should be printing them out and sending them in. DRAFT DCNR - Bureau of State Parks Geocaching Guidelines BACKGROUND Geocaching has become a new endeavor on Pennsylvania’s state park and forest lands. The idea is to have individuals set up caches all over the state and share the locations of these caches and the coordinates on the internet. Global Positioning System (GPS) users can then use the location coordinates to find the caches. Once found, a cache may provide a wide variety of cache items. The cache visitor is asked to leave an item in the cache for the one they remove. The Geocache community uses the Internet extensively for posting cache locations. The following guidelines apply to all geocaches on state park land: ? Placement of geocaches on lands administered by the DCNR - Bureau of State Parks requires written authorization of the Park Manager or designee. This authorization will be considered through a review process, which insures its location is compatible with other park activities. ? A geocache contact person responsible for necessary upkeep of the site must be identified prior to approval by the Park Manager or designee. ? There should be no earth disturbance or vegetative impact to any approved site. Nor should the cache be readily discernable by the general public. ? Cache(s) shall not be placed in a military ammo box or PVC pipe. A transparent type container is required (Tupperware, Gladware, Pretzel Barrel, etc.) ? Cache ID number must be clearly visible on the exterior of all geocache containers. The ID number should be placed on container(s) using a permanent type marker or weatherproof tag. ? The cache may not be placed within Natural Areas or Wild Plant Sanctuaries, or on stream banks, riparian zones, wetlands, prehistoric and historic archaeological sites, exemplary natural communities, ecologically sensitive areas, unique geological features, Dam structures, or unsafe areas. ? A cache may remain at the approved site for no more than five years at which time it must be removed, the site restored to its original condition, and the Park Manager informed in writing of the removal. This will control cache abandonment and assist in preventing renegade trail development to the site. ? Unauthorized geocaches on state park lands will be removed and treated as abandoned property, and the responsible person may be cited for littering. ? Responsible party shall delete site location(s) from all publications and/or website(s) within seven days of removal. COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION & NATURAL RESOURCES BUREAU OF STATE PARKS GEOCACHE IDENTIFICATION FORM This agreement is made this _____ day of _____________________, by and between the Department of Conservation and Natural Resources, Bureau of State Parks (”DEPARTMENT”) and _____________________________ (“RESPONSIBLE PARTY”). The RESPONSIBLE PARTY desires to place a geocache at the following location(s) in ________________________________________ State Park: SITE NAME (if any): ___________________________________________ ID # _______________ TOWNSHIP: _________________________________________________ COUNTY: ___________________________________________________ LATITUDE: __________________________________________________ LONGITUDE: ________________________________________________ ADDITIONAL INSTRUCTIONS (if needed)_________________________ ___________________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________ SITE NAME (if any): __________________________________________ ID # _______________ TOWNSHIP: ________________________________________________ COUNTY: __________________________________________________ LATITUDE: _________________________________________________ LONGITUDE: _______________________________________________ ADDITIONAL INSTRUCTIONS (if needed)________________________ __________________________________________________________ __________________________________________________________ SITE NAME (if any): _________________________________________ ID # _______________ TOWNSHIP: _______________________________________________ COUNTY: _________________________________________________ LATITUDE: ________________________________________________ LONGITUDE: ______________________________________________ ADDITIONAL INSTRUCTIONS (if needed)_______________________ _________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________ SITE NAME (if any): _________________________________________ ID # _______________ TOWNSHIP: _______________________________________________ COUNTY: _________________________________________________ LATITUDE: ________________________________________________ LONGITUDE: ______________________________________________ ADDITIONAL INSTRUCTIONS (if needed)_______________________ _________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________ The DEPARTMENT is willing to permit the RESPONSIBLE PARTY to place the above geocache(s), subject to the following conditions: 1. Geocache container description (size, color, container, material): ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ 2. This permission is in effect for the period beginning _______________ through _____________________ (not to exceed 5 years); however, the permission may be revoked at any time by the DEPARTMENT acting through a Park Manager or designee. 3. REPONSIBLE PARTY is not permitted to do the following: a. Earth disturbance or vegetative impact to the approved geocache site. b. Move or alter approved geocache location. c. Allow the insertion of hazardous or pornographic materials in the geocache container. d. Place cache(s) on a Dam structure d. Other (state “no other conditions” or list other conditions): ___________________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________ 4. The cache may not be placed within Natural Areas or Wild Plant Sanctuaries, or on stream banks, riparian zones, wetlands, prehistoric and historic archaeological sites, exemplary natural communities, ecologically sensitive areas, unique geological features, Dam structures, or unsafe areas. 5. Park Manager or designee shall be notified by the RESPONSIBLE PARTY when the cache is moved or removed. __________________________________ ________________________________ Printed Name of Responsible Party Responsible Party signature ___________________________________ Street ___________________________________ City State Zip (____)_____________________________ Phone Email address ___________________________________ Park Manager or designee date Original – Park Office files Copies to – Regional Park Office, Central Office Operations Section It bears repeating one more time for good measure: These documents are draft versions of the policy and permission form. Don't Use Them! Johnny

I contacted Mr. Meade to invite him to participate in our forums. We have nothing to hide. Right? This is the closest thing we have to an actual organization. I apologized personally to him for making some false statements in this forum. I think that we would all agree that he has been responsive to the geocaching community. I received the following response from Mr. Meade at the Bureau of State Parks: Dear Mr. xxxxxxxxx, Forestry has recently implemented their geocaching policy. I have forwarded your email to the Recreation Section for their response. Parks and Forestry are separate bureaus, therefore it is not proper for me to speak on their behalf. The geocaching community have always been welcomed to comment on our proposed policy. As a matter of fact, several suggestions I have received from geocachers has been incorporated into (or removed from) the draft. However, a statement in the forum that one would be required to sign a release prior to looking for a geocache are baseless and unfounded. Therefore, it serves no purpose for me to respond to such irresponsible comments. I believe I have shown a willingness to work with the geocaching community. However, unfounded statements such as this will only serve to degrade this process. My contact information is listed on several postings on the Geocache forum. I have in the past, and will continue to address all comments and suggestions from the geocaching community. I have made it a point to personally respond to every email I receive on this matter. The final draft is being reviewed at this time. After it is approved, but before it is implemented, I would be glad to forward it to you. You may post it on the forum if you wish. Charlie Meade Park Manager PA Bureau of State Parks Operations Section P.O. Box 8551 400 Market Street Harrisburg, PA 17105-8551 Voice 717-787-2191, Fax 717-783-5017 mailto:Cmeade@state.pa.us The good news here is that we may still have an opportunity to change the proposed geocaching policy if there is anything in it that we really don't like. The other good news is that there is no truth to the rumor that anyone will be required to hunt for a cache. The bad news is that we have not yet heard from the Bureau of Forestry. Johnny

People who love sausage and respect the law should never see either one being made. Why are we learning about this from Buxley’s? Did the DEPARTMENT notify geocaching.com or did geocaching.com drop the ball on this one? I had thought that we were being more than a little premature in assuming that the application of the DCNR geocaching policy would automatically be fair and reasonable. It has recently been suggested that we may be required to sign a release at the park office before we can even look for a geocache. Intolerable! The bureaucrats are running amok and you can be sure that the Bureau of State Parks and the Bureau of Forestry are working together on this. Their language is the same. They are making and implementing policies that regulate geocaching without a public review process. They don’t even bother to tell us about it! This topic on the forums here didn’t even get started until the park manager at Presque Isle took it upon himself to send something to geocaching.com. The policy makers have failed us! I am very disgusted with this process. It just isn’t right and it may be illegal. The DEPARTMENT should consider that it could be exposing itself to a lawsuit if it confiscates a geocache. Mr. Meade, who by his own admission, is not a geocacher and is “relatively new to this endeavor” formulated and distributed a geocaching policy to park managers without any input from geocachers. Problems began right away with the “Geocache Identification Form” which remains flawed in spite of us getting one really offending paragraph removed from it. It’s too complicated, there are parts of it that just don’t make sense, and there are provisions that cannot be enforced. It appears that they have borrowed some legal language from a standard disclaimer form that would be used for a rifle range and applied it to geocaches. I said it before and I’ll say it again. We’re talking about hiding a box of toys in the woods! I believe that the DEPARTMENT is overly concerned about liability issues pertaining to geocaching which is not any more or less dangerous than other park activities. This most recent policy which has come down to us from the Bureau of Forestry is an outrage. We have to go and remove our cache and then register it before we can put it back where it came from. Are they serious? What is the point of this exercise? Are they clueless are just plain stupid? Are they really going to confiscate my cache 30 days from last week if I don’t obey some senseless rules that they didn’t even bother to tell me about? Grrrrrrrr! I can promise that I will have hidden ten unauthorized caches for every one of mine that is confiscated under these circumstances. We have done some good work here and I remain committed to working with our public officials to get a policy that is fair and practical. We have won one battle but we can still lose the war. We must act now! We may have to live with whatever they come up with in the coming weeks. Keep up the letter writing campaign and send in as many suggestions as you can think of. Request that they give us an opportunity to comment on their policy before it is put into effect. Maryland's State Parks is working with geocachers. Pennsylvania should do the same! Here is some food for thought: The Bureau of state parks is responsible for “developing, maintaining, and preserving the public lands it administers for the purpose of promoting healthful outdoor recreation and education.” The purpose of the State Forests according to law are “To provide a continuous supply of timber, lumber, wood, and other forest products; to protect watersheds, conserve the water and regulate the flow of rivers and streams of the State and to furnish opportunities for the healthful recreation to the public”. Johnny

It's not over yet! We have only just begun! We have to wait and see how they are going to implement and enforce the new policy. I have a sense that they don't really know what they are doing yet. We need to cooperate and work with them to get a policy that is fair and practical. I have sent the following letter to Mr. Meade toward that end: Dear Mr. Meade, Thank you for removing the offending paragraph #6 from the “Geocache Identification Form”. It is acceptable to this geocacher in its present form but I remain concerned that it is too complicated, contains too much legalese, and has provisions that cannot be enforced by the department or cache owners. It will discourage the hiding of geocaches in our state parks. That would be a shame. I am offering my own version of the “Geocache Identification Form” which has been reviewed by other geocachers on our discussion boards. This form is much easier for geocachers to understand and live with. I also think that it is more flexible. The department can make changes to the policy without changing the form. I have included this form as a Microsoft Word Document in an attachment to this email Please feel free to use it, modify it, abuse it, or throw it in the trash. I am just trying to be constructive rather than just being critical. Please allow us the opportunity to review the final draft of your geocaching policy and registration form. I am also concerned about how this policy is going to be enforced. There are, as you know, many geocaches already hidden in Pennsylvania State Parks. I hope that you will offer an opportunity for the owners of these caches to properly register them with the state. I also want to make you aware that there is going to be a continuing problem with unauthorized geocaches being hidden in the state parks. There is no mechanism on geocaching.com or any other geocaching website to automatically make geocachers aware of regulations pertaining to any specific cache that they hide or seek. It would not be practical for them to implement such a system. It is unfortunate that all cache owners do not seek out the park managers to ask permission before they hide a cache but you should expect that this will continue to be the case. Some will hide geocaches without being aware of the regulations. Park managers will have to be vigilant and watch the website to see if there are any unauthorized geocaches in their park. I would hope that park managers will be reasonable and offer an opportunity for these persons to properly register their cache after the fact and give them a stern lecture about asking permission first. The geocaching community may be of some help in getting persons with unauthorized caches in state parks to register them but you cannot count on that since we are not a real organization with any power to sanction someone who does not play by the rules. The most that we could do is try to make everyone aware of the rules, encourage them to cooperate, and report them and their cache to the authorities. I’m not sure that I or other geocachers would be comfortable in the role of tattle-tale if you would cite them for littering but I think that you will find that the majority of us are committed to keeping geocaching safe, legal, and fun on our public lands. Thank you for your continued attention to this matter. Please let me know if I can be of any further assistance. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (aka Quest Master) Johnny

I signed and returned the paperwork to Ohiopyle State Park with paragraph #6 deleted. We shall see if it will fly. I also enclosed the following letter: July 22, 2002 Sir: It should not be assumed that geocaching is going to be a nuisance. I think it unlikely. I have become disgusted with these CYA games and creative worrying. I am ready and willing to cooperate with park officials to ensure that geocaches are an asset to our parks. I am very confident that this can be accomplished with a minimum of fuss. It is my opinion that the park mangers should have broad authority to regulate geocaching in their parks because nobody else is better qualified to know if and when a geocache is problematic. I believe that a geocache is a guest in the park and must be removed if it is or becomes a nuisance. It’s as simple as that. I believe that the vast majority of geocachers are in my camp. I have no problem with the current guidelines but the "Geocache Identification Form" which I have received is unacceptable. We are being asked to sign a legal document with an indemnify clause and other difficult to understand legalese while other park users who engage in similar park activities such as hiking, biking, boating, hunting, etc. are not required to do the same. It isn't fair. The only difference between geocaching and these other activities is that we are leaving a box of toys hidden in the woods. It will discourage geocaching in state parks. I think that this is wrong. The parks belong to all of us. We should be permitted to engage in this activity if we do not violate any existing rules or interfere with other park activites. Rather than just be critical, I am working with other geocachers to create a geocache registration form that I think would be more workable and a lot easier to understand. I intend to submit this form to the department’s policy makers and offer it as an alternative to what has been issued to me. In the meantime, on the advice of an attorney who just happens to be a Pennsylvania geocacher, I have signed and submitted the forms that I have received with paragraph #6 deleted. Please notify me if this condition is unacceptable to the department and I shall promptly remove my geocache. Be advised that my local legislator will be contacted if it should come to that. Thank you for your attention to this matter. Johnny

While I am concerned, like smoochnme, that the requirement that we must obtain written permission to hide a cache is overly burdensome to both geocachers and park managers, I think it is fair and reasonable if that's the way they want to play it. Furthermore, I believe that park mangers will realize that our game is relatively harmless and that it is not likely to conflict with other park activities. I may be naive but I think that it is wrong to assume that park managers will use the language in the guidelines to exclude geocaches everywhere in their parks. I expect that they will be reasonable. They know well that the parks belong to all of us. My experience with the park managers has been that they are very receptive and interested in geocaching, once it has been explained to them. It is my opinion that the park mangers should have broad authority to regulate geocaching in their parks because nobody else is better qualified to know if and when a geocache is problematic. I have no problem at all with the current guidelines but the "Geocache Identification Form" which I have received is unacceptable. We are being asked to sign a legal document with an indemnify clause and other difficult to understand legalese while other park users who engage in similar park activities such as hiking, biking, boating, hunting, etc. are not required to do the same. It isn't fair. The only difference is that we are leaving a box of toys hidden in the woods. Rather than just be critical I made up my own application form that I think would be more workable and a lot easier to understand. I would like to hear some suggestions from my fellow geocachers here in PA. Let's come up with something that WE can agree on and then send it on to the park guys. We ought to be able to work something out. Placement of geocaches on lands administered by the DCNR - Bureau of State Parks requires written authorization of the Park Manager or designee. This authorization will be considered through a review process, which insures its location is compatible with other park activities. The location of the geocache must not be published on any website(s) until this authorization has been issued. GEOCACHE NAME: GEOCACHE LOCATION STATE PARK: TOWNSHIP: COUNTY: LATITUDE: LONGITUDE: Geocache Container Description (size, color, container material): CACHE OWNER: ADDRESS: PHONE: EMAIL: I certify that I have read and agree to abide by the DCNR – Bureau of State Parks geocaching guidelines. I understand that any failure to abide by these guidelines may result in the immediate removal and confiscation of the geocache. (signature) (date) GEOCACHING GUIDELINES Placement of geocaches on lands administered by the DCNR - Bureau of State Parks requires written authorization of the Park Manager or designee. This authorization will be considered through a review process, which insures its location is compatible with other park activities. •A geocache contact person responsible for necessary upkeep of the site must be identified prior to approval by the Park Manager. •There should be no earth disturbance or vegetative impact to any approved site. Nor should the cache be readily discernable by the general public. •The cache may not be placed within Natural Areas or Wild Plant Sanctuaries, or on stream banks, riparian zones, wetlands, prehistoric and historic archaeological sites, exemplary natural communities, ecologically sensitive areas, unique geological features, or unsafe areas. •A cache may remain at the approved site for no more than five years at which time it must be removed, the site restored to its original condition, and the Park Manager informed in writing of the removal. This will control cache abandonment and assist in preventing renegade trail development to the site. •Unauthorized geocaches on state park lands will be removed and treated as abandoned property, and the responsible person may be cited for littering. •Responsible party shall delete site location(s) from all publications and/or website(s) within seven days of removal. Things that I would add to the policy: •The authorization may be revoked at any time at the discretion of the park manager of designee. Cache owner will remove geocache immediately upon being informed of the revocation by the park manager or designee. Park manager of designee shall be notified by the responsible party when the geocache is removed. •The geocache must be properly maintained. Inappropriate items such as drugs, alcohol, hazardous materials, pornography, etc. must not be allowed to remain in the cache. Proper maintenance of the geocache also includes timely response to inquiries by park officials. Failure to properly maintain the geocache may result in revocation of the authorization. •The geocache may not be moved without obtaining new authorization. Let's hear some comments. I expect abuse. Bring it on! Johnny Johnny

I probably should have been the one to start this topic since I was informed of the new Pennsylvania State Parks geocaching policy back on July 3. The assistant park manager at Ohiopyle State Park notified me that my geocache (Falls City) would have to be removed to comply with the new policy since it had been hidden in an area designated as a National Natural Landmark. Just for the record, I did obtain permission from the same park manager when the cache was hidden there. Even so, I had hidden the cache with the understanding that I would remove it if it ever became a problem so I drove down there on the very next day, the Fourth of July, and moved the cache to another location. I proptly notified the park manager that I had moved it and was informed that I would need written permission for the "new" cache. I asked for and received a copy of the new policy at this time. I made some comments to the new policy which included my concerns that it was overly burdensome to geocachers and park managers and asked him to forward it on to the policy makers. I trust that he did this. At his request, I arranged to meet with him last Saturday (July 13) to inspect the new cache site and obtain the written permission. I made another trip down to Ohiopyle from Greensburg. We talked some informally about geocaching and the new policy on the trek to the cache and back. He said that he thought that geocaching was a relatively low-impact recreational use of the park and that he did not think that there would be any problem with the new location. I did not get the written permission on that day. He said that he had to review a few things but I suspect that this was because they didn't have the forms ready yet. Yesterday I received (via snail mail) a big pile of legalese in duplicate and a request to sign both copies and return them to the park office. I don't understand it and I don't want to. We're talking about hiding a box of toys in the woods! Does everthing have to be this complicated? If I must sign legal documents to hide a cache then it is time for me to get out of the cache-hiding business. I remain committed to working with the park managers to keep geocaching safe, legal, and enjoyable without interfering with other park activities but this is a little much! Why would they even think of making a policy without input from geocachers first? I want to say before I end this post that I think it is a good thing that the DCNR is regulating geocaching. I do not think that all cache owners (Responsible Party)are going to be as responsible for their caches as they should be. Some will not maintain them properly and mistakes will be made such as hiding geocaches in places that are inappropriate. I think that every cache is a guest in the park and should be removed whenever it overstays its welcome. The park managers will have the final word and geocachers should cooperate. It's as simple as that. I'm pretty disgusted with the way this is being handled. I'm not going to return the forms that I have received but I will continue to work with the park managers and policy makers to see if we can't work something out. If that doesn't work, I'll take it up with my local legislator. Who's with me? Johnny [This message was edited by Quest Master on July 19, 2002 at 11:10 AM.]

I am opposed unless there is a provision for people to sign in as "guest" or something like that. I know that it is not that difficult to sign up for an account but it is enough that some people are going to be turned off. There are many legitimate reasons for persons who are not geocaches to want to view this information. I recently had a discussion with a state forest ranger who was concerned that geocaches might be used as a transfer point for illegal drugs. That's pretty ridiculous but it serves as a warning that the authorities may become suspicious of geocaching if they cannot see what it is that we are up to. Should a park ranger be able to view information about a cache that is hidden in his park? I say that he should be. I also think that he should be able to do it without having to sign up for an account. Johnny

The cache owner and the people of Shanksville, Pennsylvania will be honored to have these flags at the memorial site for the Heroes of Flight 93. Johnny

I am not frantic. I guess that I went a little bit overboard with the title of this thread. It's just that I prefer that I should deal with problems relating to my cache and not involve Jeremy and others at geocaching.com with problems that I have created. I'm sure that he/they have much better things to do with their time. I'm just trying to be responsible. That's all. All of my caches are clearly marked with my contact information. I do not expect a problem if they find the actual cache. What we have to consider, though, is that park rangers and the like are taking notice of what we are doing and will be checking the website to monitor our activity. If they find out about a cache that is in an inappropriate area via the website it would be a good thing if they had a quick and easy way to settle their issues directly with the cache owner. We need to accomodate them so that they will not be inclined to develop policies that adversely affect geocaching in general. It may be that I am making the proverbial mountain out of a molehill. If Jeremy says that they have only a few requests per week like this that come in to geocaching.com and that it is no major problem to deal with them then it probably does not matter very much. Let's just hope that the low number of requests is not due to persons outside of geocaching being frustrated by the system. You can be sure that the authorities will become wary of geocaching if they perceive that we are being secretive of the identities of geocachers. Johnny

I am very concerned, as a cache owner, that there is no easy and straightforward way for persons who are not geocachers to contact me if there is a problem with one of my caches. I am talking about park rangers, land owners and anybody else who might want to contact me with their concerns about my geocache. The current system requires that they would have to go through the cumbersome process of signing up for an account on geocaching.com and locate my profile before they can email me. I think that it is way too complicated for somebody who just needs to have a few words with the cache owner. I also think that there should be a straightforward way for these persons to contact geocaching.com directly with such issues. I would like to know how geocaching.com handles complaints of this nature at this time. There must have been quite a few of them by now. I think that we have to recognize that it is in our best interest to have the best possible lines of communication with people outside of the world of geocaching. It is my opinion that the geocaching.com website should facilitate this communication. I regret pulling the strings of the geopuppet (sorry Jeremy), but I think that this issue should be addressed ahead of any of the many asked for bells and whistles in this topic. I would like to hear other opinions on this subject. Please excuse me if this has been discussed before. I don’t get to read these discussion boards as often as I would like. Johnny