jonboy

I love having all these public lands available for me to hike in, I was hiking on them long before geocaching was invented, and I would keep on hiking on them even if geocaching was banned altogether. I am not interested in starting a war with Park Rangers. I work with some of these rangers as a trail maintainer and as a search and rescue volunteer, and they are not malignant bureaucrats looking to harrass people just to feel powerful. With over two million visitors a year in Harriman State Park, it is ludicrous to think that a boycott by a handful of geocachers is going to have any impact at all. Yes I have disagreed with them on occasion, and will doubtless do so again, but they are not my enemies, they are the good guys. If you are looking for villains to battle with, the world is filled with them, but I want no part in a vendetta against a branch of government that is so important to me. That would be cutting off my nose to spite my face.

I don't think fierce opinions voiced on this board are going to influence policy makers in Albany, it's sort of like going down into your basement to curse out your boss. If you feel so strongly about it, write to your elected representatives or join NYGO and organize to throw the appeasers out. In any case, it will take sustained effort. Any park manager could force any or all the caches in his park to be archived, simply by contacting geocaching.com and demanding it. I know because this has happened to me, even if you refuse to remove them, they will disappear from the website. We are not negotiating from a position of strength, so tough talk of defiance is meaningless and futile. I am attempting to be proactive rather than reactive, instead of waiting to be contacted by geocaching.com and told that my caches have been taken off the website at the request of the park manager, I choose to remove them myself and be in a position to go meet with the park manager and talk about getting official permission for new placements. This is more likely to work in a small park like Fahnestock, that isn't saturated with hundreds of caches. I see Harriman as a worse case example of unrestricted geocache placements leading to what could be viewed as an intolerable situation. I am sure that it was the anarchic mess in Harriman that forced the Office of Parks and Recreation to act. As such, it will be the test case of whether geocachers can be responsible and geocaching be compatible with protecting the resource from over use and abuse. If we fail to cooperate in Harriman, it could have repercussions for geocachers through out the state.

I can see the Office of Parks and Recreation quaking in their boots now! Wait till we all start holding our breath and stomping our feet! That'll show them who's boss!

I see Harriman State Park as the one that is really going to be a problem. Even if I remove the ten caches that I have in the park, that will still leave over two hundred others, so that from the park managers point of view, there will still be too many caches in the park. I actually agree with the increased distance specified in the new permit application, and all my caches fall within that guideline anyway. I also agree with the idea of a cache remaining in place only two years and the requirement that it be checked on, though I would have thought once a year would be enough. Placing a cache does not guarantee a cacher imortality in the caching world. There are too many caches out there placed by people who are now inactive in geocaching, and they are maintained by others. That Bete Noir, Bassoon Pilot once suggested as much, and I have to agree that with a few years of perspective, I think he was right. He at least had the decency to remove his caches when he withdrew from geocaching.com. We need to turn over the soil so that a new crop of caches can be planted, right now Harriman is choked with weeds. I am removing my caches in Fahnestock and Hudson Highland State Parks first because in those parks I have placed the majority of caches and thus my action will have a visible impact that will enable me to approach the park manager for a permit. I am afraid a lot more caches will have to be removed before Tim Sullivan, the Harriman Park Manager, agrees to issue permits for new caches. I think the geocaching community should think about cleaning up it's own mess, even if this means yanking out other peoples caches. I am not saying anyone should go out and do this independently, but we should do this as an organization if the cache owners decline to follow the new rules. We all knew there was a problem brewing in Harriman with the cache clutter, we should help fix it.

I decided I was going to remove all of my caches in NY State Parks, so that I can start fresh with permits. Today I removed "Where's the Trail", "Lichen Ledge", "Gates of the Hudson" and "Mother Hubbards Bald Spot". I was getting maxed out on cache placements which I could maintain, so this will give me a chance to start anew, and perhaps some other cacher will want to place caches in the parks I was hogging.

I do remember appeals being made on this discussion board for participation in NYGO, I also received an individual e-mail asking me to participate in negotiations, which I ignored. I don't think it is fair for those of us who have declined to participate to sit on the sidelines and complain. I have been in negotiations with the state over the Catskill 3500 Club canisters, it is a pain in the neck, which is why I declined to get involved. We don't know what the opening demands of the State were but I do know state bureaucrats act as if their positions are carved in stone, mandated by State Law, the State Constitution and the will of the almighty. The status quo was not going to be allowed to continue and I think they did well to wring agreement to the permission of geocaching at all, given the staunch opposition in many quarters. I see some wriggle room in the wording about "the discretion of the park managers", but I also worry about this, as it could be used against us. Given that so much is going to depend on the goodwill of the park managers, stonewalling or defiance on our part is unlikely to yield positive results. Yes, we are looking for cooperation on their part, but they will also be looking for cooperation on ours. It would be a real mistake to just dig our heels in and force them to come down on us.

The question is, how do those of us who have already placed caches come into compliance? Do we start removing caches that would not comply with the new rules? That would be caches more than 20' off trail, older than two years, near any cliff or other hazard. I would not have many left. Should we talk to the park manager first, before removing caches? I have thought of this, but it is quite possible that the park manager would demand that all caches placed without a permit be archived and removed. The net effect could well be that all the conscientious cache maintainers remove their caches, leaving only those dump and forget type caches. This would mean that the precentage of junk caches would increase. Would the geocaching organization undertake to archive and remove such caches? The regulation calls for caches to be checked twice a year, I would think there may be grounds for this. Why should only the caches of the good cache maintainers be removed? This would illustrate a willingness to police ourselves and increase our credibility in the eyes of the park authorities. Anyway you hack it, a lot of caches are going to be removed. They are not going to say, "Oh never mind, all the caches can stay.". By my count, I have 28 caches in New York State Parks, I doubt if even a dozen of them will fall within the placement rules. It took a long time to place them, it is going to take a long time to remove them. The question is do I start removing the most obviously non-compliant caches now, or wait until confronted by the park authorities or geocaching.com and perhaps be forced to archive and remove them all.

What we need is for someone to approach each of the park managers in our region about getting permission to place a geocache in that park, hopefully someone who has not already placed a lot of caches without permission. Once it has been determined how that individual park manager reacts, how strictly they enforce the twenty foot rule, how they feel about the other caches that are already in place, that should be reported back to this board. That way, those of us who would like to get legal can know that there will be good faith cooperation and have an idea what to expect. Until the water has been tested, most of us are not going to jump in.

That story is a little hard to read as it appears. here it is: Autopsy done on missing hiker By TERRY CORCORAN THE JOURNAL NEWS (Original publication: February 3, 2005) An autopsy on a New York City man whose body was found last week in the Hudson Highlands State Park, four weeks after he went missing, shows that he died from blunt-force trauma. The ruling by John Stahl, the Putnam County coroner, appears to support the theory that Myung Geuk Choi, 63, fell while hiking on the challenging trails that lead to Breakneck Ridge. The Flushing, Queens, man had apparently been hiking in the park for years and was familiar with its terrain, police said. "From all appearances, the death was caused by a fall from the cliff," said Capt. William McNamara of the Putnam Sheriff's Office, which is handling the case with the state park police. Police were awaiting a toxicology report from the autopsy, McNamara said. A Fishkill man found Choi around 4 p.m. Friday near the base of a 100-foot cliff after hiking into the park to admire ice formations on the side of the cliff, police said. The area from where police think Choi fell was several hundred feet from the nearest marked trail. Choi had been missing since Jan. 2, when he went hiking in the park with a Korean-American woman in her 60s. Choi, a contractor in the construction business, is also of Korean descent, police said. Choi's daughter, Jean, reported him missing to the Sheriff's Office in the early morning hours of Jan. 3, prompting a search over several days by more than 100 police officers and volunteers. The search was scaled back after a Jan. 11 snowstorm, but it was still in effect when Choi's body was found. According to the police account, Choi and his companion, who were members of a New York City hiking club, took a train from the Bronx to Cold Spring on the morning of Jan. 2 and walked to the 14,000-acre park. Once on the trails that lead to Breakneck Ridge, the woman and Choi parted ways when they came upon two men, described as Asian, possibly Korean. The woman told police it appeared that Choi knew the men. Choi told the woman that he would meet her back at the train station as he walked off with the men. The woman went back to Cold Spring and, after waiting for Choi, took a train back to the city, where she notified a member of their hiking club. The member notified Jean Choi, who then went to Cold Spring with friends to look for her father on the night of Jan. 2. She reported her father missing around 12:40 a.m. the next morning. McNamara said the two men seen with Choi came forward a couple of days after he was reported missing. Investigators spoke with them and were confident they were not involved in Choi's disappearance, he said.

Avroair, What you wanna bet you go into Harriman and ask for a permit for your caches and they jump down your throat and say they don't know anything about permits, but they want those caches out now. Let us know how it goes.

I read that as saying they must be ammo cans or some kind of animal resistant container. I don't think any kind of plastic container is animal resistant, locking or not, unless you use one of those bear canisters.

I don't think putting half my caches in my wifes name is going to fool anybody, especially if the new cache owner has the same e-mail as the old owner. Don't laugh Brian, it won't be long before New Jersey Parks jumps on the cache regulation bandwagon. I suppose I should be grateful we don't have to have each cache bonded for liability. To me, this is similar to the President's Social Security plan, designed to kill it in the name of reform. The large print giveth and the small print taketh away.

This new ruling, if fully implemented will amount to a wholesale purge of geocaches from NY State Parks. I myself would probably have to remove at least thirteen caches in order to come into compliance with this new policy, and I would probably stand to lose far more. The 20 foot limit from a trail seems the most problematic, at least for me. To my mind, a cache within 20 feet of the trail is too close. A cache that close to the trail is much more likely to be visible to the non-geocaching public and thus more of an intrusion, as well as being subject to vandalism. Much as I might want to come into compliance, I certainly won't be the first to walk into a park office and put my head on the chopping block, I have tried this before and been forced to yank all of my caches from a park. The funny thing was that another cacher, who didn't try and communicate with this park, had their caches left alone. I would like to know who will be the first to test out this new permit system and see if it will be used to force the removal of all caches, maybe Big Bill in Harriman?

Here is the news link: Journal News Story Could he have been down climbing to the funnel? I was foolish enough to do it in winter, but I at least climbed up to it. There are a couple of other caches up there that are just as hazardous in winter.

First of all, although Schunemunk is a great place and could stand some new caches, it is not the kind of location that is going to attract a lot of traffic. I wouldn't expect much more than the half dozen or so serious Hudson Valley hikers to visit a new cache up there in the winter. As far as gear, one of the first items I would buy would be a pair of six point instep crampons, along with gaitors and trekking poles. You are going to want some shelled gloves, preferably with removable liners so that you can put in dry ones if the ones you wear get wet scrabbling around in the snow for a cache, you might want to carry mittens as back up. You probably already have a winter hat, but I would also include a balaclava, which can be pulled up over the face, for protection from frost bite. Also, if you don't wear sunglasses on a bright day, you could really suffer from the snow glare. Avoid any cotton clothing, use wool or synthetic instead. Beware the beginners mistake of over dressing, wear layers that can be removed at the first sign of over heating, and carry a bigger pack, so you don't have to tie things around your waist. Make a first layer of light or medium weight polypro underwear layered over medium weight pants and shirt, with a light fleece jacket or vest and a goretex shell jacket on top. Unless it is bitterly cold, these latter items should soon be removed. A down jacket, hopefully with a hood, is good for stops, but don't hike in it, or it will get wet. Unless you suffer from cold feet, normal leather hiking boots will probably suffice. The biggest reason for getting cold is your feet getting wet from sweat. I sometimes wear vapor barrier socks over polypro liner socks and under a wool sock. Old bread bags can be a low cost subsitute for VBL socks. You must have room in your boots for these extra layers, if you don't, you will cut off your circulation and get cold feet anyway. The alternative if to carry extra socks and change into them if your feet start to feel clammy. If you are going out in deep snow, you will not get far without snowshoes, and if you post hole through deep snow, you will make the other trail users mad at you, as these often freeze into treacherous obstacles. Sometimes the trails are so messed up from deep, frozen ruts (postholes), that I abandon them and walk alongside the trail on snowshoes. There are lot's of good choices out there, but don't get snow shoes that are too big, 30 inches in length will do for almost anyone. Winter is a great time to hike, but it can be dangerous. Hike with others if you can, don't try anything too ambitious at first, and make sure and carry a headlamp or light. You are likely to be alone in a place like Schunemunk in winter, you might try Harriman first, as there are always others out on the trails. Have Fun!

I joined Hudson Valley Orienteering primarily to get their maps, and bought all the available ones for our area. I was somewhat dissapointed, although the terrain features are obviously more detailed, sometimes they are so busy as to be confusing, and their trail data is very limited, with no marking of trails shown, and in most instances more out of date than Trail Conference maps. What they are very good for is showing parks that no one else has mapped, such as Jockey Hollow, South Mountain, Lewis Morris Park and Eagle Rock Reservation in New Jersey. In New York, they have Tallman Mt, Blauvelt Parks, Saxon Woods, Cranberry Lake, Winding Hills, Ward Pound Ridge and others.

Reportedly, the January issue of the Adirondack Explorer has an article about Geocaching being allowed on NY State land. It looks like I may have to eat crow, but I will be more than happy to be proven wrong. I will be working with DEC rangers tomorrow on a search, so perhaps I will have the opportunity to talk to them and see if they have anything new on it.

I broke two pairs of yaktrak Pros, neither lasted longer than 5 miles. The problem is when you encounter bare rock, the rubber tends to break at the edge of the boot. My wife is a lot lighter than me and she got about fifteen miles out of hers before they broke. They would probably be all right if you could stay off of bare ground, but with solid snow cover, I would use crampons. They also tended to fall off when going up or down steeply, not a good thing.

My wife and I used Grivels for about ten years before they finally broke. I have the Alpin, and they seem fine, I used them to go up Breakneck on Friday. Don't worry about wearing down the points on bare rock, they are actually better when they get worn down a little, less to stumble over. These are no subsitute for full crampons when you have to climb high angle ice, but I sometimes carry both, and use these on trails to save wear and tear on my real crampons, which need to be sharp.

One of the best traction devices to use for hiking in the present conditions is the six point instep crampon. The points (that is teeth) are shorter than regular crampons, so that you are less likely to stumble over the points when you hit bare rock. Here are a few models: Alpin Crampon also sold at Campmor Ice Walker Six Point Crampon Kahtoola Lightweight 10 point Crampons Grivel Six Point Crampons This may seem a lot to spend, but if you get hurt and need orthopedic rehab, this amount will seem trivial in comparison. You should also use a pair of ski poles or trekking poles for stability.

Good luck trying to call with information, I've called eight times with no reply. Also, the only volunteers that have been allowed on this search was Ramapo Search Dogs, the Taconic Search and Rescue mentioned in another article is a Group of Park employees. I went up there on my own today, I climbed up by "Where's The Trail?" and then up to the Breakneck Ridge Trail, coming down a little further up. There were no footprints at all up there in the new snow. There is about three inches of snow up there, with a hard crust, I used six point instep crampons. If you fell on that surface, you could be in for quite a ride. There were three DEC ranger trucks up there, plus a search aircraft circling around all afternoon. Another article said his female companion cut down the yellow Undercliff trail, and he went on to come down the blue Three Notch trail, saying he would meet her at 1:00 at Cold Spring. He would really have to move to accomplish that, and I think he realized he didn't have time and tried to take a shortcut down. If he had reached the blue trail in the valley that our group walked out on last spring, I don't think he would have any problem. If you ask me, he's up there somewhere.

You left out the longest one I know of, Go Take a Hike. I really think the Trail Conference maps are very good, much better than any where else in the country, we just have a vast trail network and are continually adding new trails. The trails down in Brians neck of the woods haven't received attention from the NY/NJTC mapping committee yet. They also don't show the Shuber Trail and the Hassenclever Trail as well as the new pink trail in Norvin Green, but you can be sure these will be added in the next revision. I have been building a database of trails for the digital mapping programs TOPO! and Maptech Terrain navigator, using data from the NY/NJTC, Rod Johnson maps, various websites and my own scouting. Like any mapping effort, mine will have some errors, but if you have either of these mapping software programs, I would be happy to share them with you if you e-mail me.

My cache is a clear rubbermaid container with blue trim. I checked Navicache and letterboxing.com and couldn't find a cache in this location. Are there any other cache sites out there? As far as caching from White Plains without a car, you could rent a bike and ride down the Bronxriver bike path to the Watusi cache, or take a train to Hartsdale. I have had someone get a bike from their hotel near Westchester Airport and ride to " Not So Far From The Maddening Crowd". There are several other cache near the airport. Of course, Haggaeus found all his caches without a car, but me, I would rent a car if I was that eager.

It is quite clear that Ranger Dearstyne relayed this inquiry up the chain of command and received a definitive answer. There may be a policy change in the works, but you would think that those charged with enforcing these changes would know of them. You cannot just shop around for sympathetic officials and take their consent as signifying an official DEC policy decision, things don't work that way. If you want a policy change that will overcome internal opposition, it will have to be done formally, at the highest level, and this will take time.

The interpretation of this is clear, there has not been any DEC wide decision to allow geocaching on DEC managed lands. I know Fred Dearstyne, he is a straight arrow, and if he said his superiors confirmed the continued ban on Geocaching, you can believe it. There is an old adage that if something seems too good to be true, it probably isn't. I suspect that what we had was a localized liberal interpretation of the land use regs. Also, there are multiple divisions within the DEC, and the Rangers, as part of the Public Safety Division, are just one of them. I have had rangers complain to me before about what they consider to be questionable activities that are granted permits by other divisions of the DEC. This issue is not going to be resolved easily, there are legitimate issues to be raised about about allowing this activity, and until there is a full airing of these issues, there cannot and should not be a decision in this regard. I would expect that those who oppose the relaxation of this ban will be given an opportunity to make their case. There may even be calls for Environmental Impact Statements and Public Hearings. If and when a formal policy decision on Geocaching is rendered, it will be released in written form, agency wide. This is not going to be accomplished by some sort of back room arrangement.