drat19

+1 for me too, Kit. My only caching now is to visit states I haven't yet lit up on my "states cached" map and snag one or two in each, and to still occasionally carry and log TBs during my business travels (and I've even cut back on that once-fun part of the game, now that I've gotten more than a couple of Emails b*tching at me for logging a TB properly but having the temerity move it in a different direction from "goal" (oh the humanity!)). That's pretty much it for me now. Thanks for nothing, "mass market".

Odd that a long essay on the merits of quality in one's endeavors and respect for others would be written in white font on a black background in size one text. Is he kidding? To me, that shows disrespect for the reader tantamount to be the equivalent of "Ha ha, no hint for you!" or hiding a micro under a rock amidst hundreds of rocks. Dave wrote a very nice article on quality work and showing respect for compatriots. He should practice it himself. RATTLEBARS Next time you have otherwise-useful criticism to offer, may I suggest that a. you do so constructively instead of crassly, and b. you do so via private Email and address me directly, as opposed to publicly and via the third-person ("he...") as you have done? I might just have a little more respect for you. Still, your basic point, however classlessly you have stated it, has merit. I have re-published the articles in a larger font. Allow me now to respond in kind and offer you a PUBLIC lesson on the difference between proper constructive criticism that might be well-received and respected, vs. what you posted here: Compare what you posted here publicly, and the manner in which you did, vs. a PRIVATE Email to me that would have said something along the lines of: "Hey Dave, you wrote a very nice and useful article, but the font and color on your site make it a bit hard to read. Any chance you could increase the size and/or change the color scheme to help that out?" You think that maybe, just maybe, I might have reacted a bit differently and with more respect toward you if you had done that? Hmmmm? Your assessment is correct. My post was carellessly written without much forethought. I offer my sincere apologies and will try to behave with more class in the future. There was no intent to start any flame wars as some have asserted. RATTLEBARS Thank you. Very good of you to respond publicly with that...hopefully the mods won't ban us both for achieving closure on this debate.

Heh! I must admit that I've gotten into more than my fair share of debates on these forums about Micro Spew and The New Numbers Game (I've given up fighting those, by the way...I've come to realize it's a losing battle - the masses have spoken and that's what they want), but this is the first time I've ever gotten into it publicly regarding my choice of fonts and colors on my web site, and the differences between public and private, and constructive vs. non-constructive criticism. And the funniest (and saddest) part is that all I did was post a one-line response/link to an article I wrote almost 4 years ago, that is directly pertinent to the OP. THIS is a new one! Perhaps its because i'm in the IT profession (specifically web design). I can't speak for Rattlebars, but I'm guessing that's where he's coming from also. Looking at a white font on a black background is a similar feeling to finding a broken plastic tupperware container hidden in a nasty wet used tire (which I have found by the way).. Perhaps everyone is being a bit too sensitive. It was a very good article and the content was great! Fair enough, but hopefully you see my point (which Scuba and RK also echoed in slightly different language) regarding how Rattlebars chose to deliver his otherwise-useful message. (You should have seen my initial reply, which I subsequently edited - let's just say it included the phrase "GFY"....) I'm also in the IT profession, although not in web design. As I'm sure you obviously saw, I used a site template that I acquired, as my basic page format. (My site/page format *before* I recently overhauled it had a color scheme was probably easier on the eyes, but the page formats were awful...very "1997"!) This new color scheme happens to work great (well, *I* think so) for the majority of my pages, which are graphic in nature, but you're right, for text-based material like these articles I can certainly see your point. I increased the font for those articles as a short-term fix, but based on this discussion I'm going to rethink my color schemes as well, for these pages where text is dominant. Thanks for the worthwhile discussion (now); perhaps others reading it might benefit as well (even though we're totally off-topic from the OP!). (***EDIT: Quiggle, I just saw your post above, which you were obviously posting at the same time as I was. This will be my last off-topic post on this.)

Heh! I must admit that I've gotten into more than my fair share of debates on these forums about Micro Spew and The New Numbers Game (I've given up fighting those, by the way...I've come to realize it's a losing battle - the masses have spoken and that's what they want), but this is the first time I've ever gotten into it publicly regarding my choice of fonts and colors on my web site, and the differences between public and private, and constructive vs. non-constructive criticism. And the funniest (and saddest) part is that all I did was post a one-line response/link to an article I wrote almost 4 years ago, that is directly pertinent to the OP. THIS is a new one!

Obviously this thread is now going off-track, so my apologies to the OP. Since that other poster elected to make this a public discussion, I will continue to respond publicly as well: ReadyOrNot, please scroll up and re-read the comments. You are correct, he did not insult me personally per se, but he did indicate that my page layout was disrespectful to its readers and that I was thus not being respectful. Furthermore, he did this publicly and non-constructively as opposed to privately and constructively. Please read my response above and ask yourself: Would you feel the same as me if the post were made in the way he did, vs. the alternative that I suggested? Folks, this is PERTINENT to this thread in terms of how you might respond to fellow cachers as to the quality of their caches as well. Private, constructive criticism goes a H*LL of a lot farther than public insult, even if your underlying point otherwise has merit (as Rattlebars' point did beneath his poor choice of style in presenting it). It seemed fine to me... He even said that the article was good. Time to move on? I think his comments would have been better delivered by him, and received by me, privately and constructively. You obviously think his comments, delivered publicly and in the third-person fashion that they were, were just fine. We agree to disagree, then. Thank you for confirming why I used to frequent these forums on a daily basis, but now only come here once every month, or even less often than that. You have a nice day.

Obviously this thread is now going off-track, so my apologies to the OP. Since that other poster elected to make this a public discussion, I will continue to respond publicly as well: ReadyOrNot, please scroll up and re-read the comments. You are correct, he did not insult me personally per se, but he did indicate that my page layout was disrespectful to its readers and that I was thus not being respectful. Furthermore, he did this publicly and non-constructively as opposed to privately and constructively. Please read my response above and ask yourself: Would you feel the same as me if the post were made in the way he did, vs. the alternative that I suggested? Folks, this is PERTINENT to this thread in terms of how you might respond to fellow cachers as to the quality of their caches as well. Private, constructive criticism goes a H*LL of a lot farther than public insult, even if your underlying point otherwise has merit (as Rattlebars' point did beneath his poor choice of style in presenting it).

Odd that a long essay on the merits of quality in one's endeavors and respect for others would be written in white font on a black background in size one text. Is he kidding? To me, that shows disrespect for the reader tantamount to be the equivalent of "Ha ha, no hint for you!" or hiding a micro under a rock amidst hundreds of rocks. Dave wrote a very nice article on quality work and showing respect for compatriots. He should practice it himself. RATTLEBARS Next time you have otherwise-useful criticism to offer, may I suggest that a. you do so constructively instead of crassly, and b. you do so via private Email and address me directly, as opposed to publicly and via the third-person ("he...") as you have done? I might just have a little more respect for you. Still, your basic point, however classlessly you have stated it, has merit. I have re-published the articles in a larger font. Allow me now to respond in kind and offer you a PUBLIC lesson on the difference between proper constructive criticism that might be well-received and respected, vs. what you posted here: Compare what you posted here publicly, and the manner in which you did, vs. a PRIVATE Email to me that would have said something along the lines of: "Hey Dave, you wrote a very nice and useful article, but the font and color on your site make it a bit hard to read. Any chance you could increase the size and/or change the color scheme to help that out?" You think that maybe, just maybe, I might have reacted a bit differently and with more respect toward you if you had done that? Hmmmm?

Click: Dave's Opinions on Geocache Hiding

One of the most eloquent statements I've seen in any on-line forum in quite some time...well said.

I started almost exactly when you did down in So. Miss., and my early experience is almost identical. It was life-changing for me back then...the "hidden gem" locations in my own backyard (well, within a 200 mile radius!) that I discovered! Somehow I doubt today's new cachers are getting that same exhilaration.

That "trading cards" analogy is very interesting and pertinent; I hadn't looked at it that way. Maybe I'm just a terrible cynic, but when I see the new emphasis on it at the Events I've attended recently, etc., I see Amway: They're having this hypnotic effect on people (whether it's the collecting, the "Icon ho'ing", the reselling on eBay, or the selling itself among those arranging their production), and a small number of people making money off an unsuspecting/brainwashed larger population.

Your points are all well taken even though I don't necessarily agree with all of them, obviously. Where we DO agree, I hope, is that the fact that your bugs went missing has NOT ONE THING to do with the fact that they were carried farther away from Goal. They went missing because of clueless cachers who didn't take the time/effort to learn the basics of TB logging. This could have happened whether your bugs were closer or farther from Goal. I have a 5+ year history of carrying TBs thousands of miles, and every now and then they go against Goal, but they are ALWAYS properly logged. ALWAYS. As I've continued to say, that's all any TB owner can and should expect and hope for once his/her TB is released into the Geocaching community.

Actually, this type of response makes it sound like you care about the stats too and feel the need to explain yours. I'm well documented in these Forums that I have ALWAYS cared about my stats and the fact that the changes in the game since roughly mid'04 totally watered down any signficance of them (i.e, not that anyone is a "better" or "worse" cacher than anyone else, or that anyone is a "winner" or not, but just the ability to compare "relative experience levels", and also the ability to engage in "friendly competition" among caching buddies). But unlike my tirades last year, I'm over that now. Really. (No, REALLY!) ;-) ;-) In response to some other comments on this thread (which I'm too lazy to go back and quote directly right now), yeah, it could be that my Event attendance is in areas that are behind the national curve regarding the "Coin Fest" thing. The last 3 events I attended in MN (where I hide out most of the time during my work weeks) were all really enjoyable in that like most local groups, it's a group of really nice people I've enjoyed getting to know, but the whole Coin thing was really prevalent at all of them as well...TOO prevalent, in my opinion. Maybe it was just that the dominant personalities there were into the coin sales and so it was more pervasive than just the social aspect, I dunno. But for it to happen repeatedly at these events, along with my own observation elsewhere in the GeoWorld lately and the whole "let's get as many icons on our Trackable page as we can" thing, is what got my attention and spawned this thread. Like having to come to grips with the new reality as regards cache and stat quality, I guess I just need to come to grips with this new reality as well, and decide how to find ways to continue to try to enjoy the game in spite of it.

As a Geocaching "old timer", my disdain for The New Numbers Game and Micro Spew is well documented in these precincts; no need for me to re-hash all of that here again, after I peacefully took a break from the Forums for a year or so. During that time I've come to accept that this is the "new" game now, and I've cut back on my participation accordingly and work as hard as I can to locate caches that *I* would find enjoyable during the few times that I do choose to cache now. Apparently since "there's something for everyone", this is what I'm supposed to do now. So be it. Here's my new observation about another change in the game that's happened recently: I still enjoy attending Event Caches from time to time as an opportunity to meet and socialize with other cachers, and I've made (and continue to make) some nice new friends this way. However, I've also observed that these get-togethers invariably now have a significant portion of time/energy devoted to the sale of GeoCoins, and to the exchange of lists of GeoCoin tracking numbers so that folks can pump up their Trackable stat and icon lists. The original intent of TBs to travel from cache to cache and for cachers to enjoy the fascination of watching the geographic movement of inanimate objects has been supplanted by the Discovery of trackables for the sole purpose of pumping up those stats and icon lists, and the resultant Profit Motive of entrepreneurs who are able to cash in on that pumping, either by arranging the production of those coins, or by eBay or other forms of resale. Oh, and of course Groundspeak's profit motive as to tracking/listing, the blocks of tracking codes, etc. I'm not begrudging anyone for finding a way to cash in on this; more power to 'em, wish I'd thought of it. I also continue to observe that to many people, and despite the cries of those on these forums who say otherwise, The Stats Do Matter. When I reveal to those I meet at Events that I've been caching for over 5 years, invariably that makes me one of the 'senior" attendees at any Event, and the question is inevitable: "So how many Finds ya got?" My response is always the same: "I found about 1500 caches in my first 2 years of caching between '02 and '04, and then when Micros became the hide style of the majority back around mid'04, I decided it was less fun for me and I curtailed my activities, and I've only found about 300 or so in the 3 years since." Unlike my past tirades around here, no agenda with this post, just to share my observations and throw them out onto the table for discussion. I've given up "fighting the good fight"...as I've indicated I now cache very sparingly and try to get whatever enjoyment I can out of it when I do. The discussion floor is open for anyone who cares to partake...

OP thread starter here. I'm not going to get in the middle of y'all's semantic disagreement of "ownership" vs. "control", but I would like to sum up with this: Do we all agree that in the situation where a TB has been taken "farther from goal", but it HAS BEEN PROPERLY LOGGED into the cache where it has been dropped, the TB owner (i.e., the person who purchased the TB tag/tracking # and released it into the Geocaching community at his/her own risk) has the following privileges: (1) May choose to complain that the carrier of the TB carried it "farther from goal" than preferred (2) May choose to publicly defame the carrier of the TB who did so with a forum thread or with unflattering log entries either on the TB page or the cache page where the TB was properly logged (3) May choose to travel to the new location of the TB to retrieve the TB for re-release or re-acquisition because it is of that much personal importance to him/her (4) May choose to accept the fact that "thems the breaks" when a TB is released into the Geocaching community, and should otherwise be thankful that at least the TB was PROPERLY LOGGED as to its movements, and thus is still in legitimate circulation with a CHANCE that it may yet reach its goals What other privileges does the TB owner have?

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...=y&decrypt= Found it 2 different times back in '03; it's still in circulation as of today.

It's been rumored that one or two exist. Some even have flush toilets in their homes.

Yes, I agree. Most novices aren't running PQs and filtering on size. They just have to open "nearest" and keep looking through the caches 20 at a time to find one that's 1.5 or less on difficulty and regular sized. Of the first 100 caches we found, 67 were regulars. We had to drive a ways to come up with 100 finds, and it took 9 months of caching almost every weekend. But micros were less than 1/3 of the hides out there. Sigh, yes we do indeed agree. But of course you know where I stand on the evolution of the game since you and I started back in '02-'03...no need for me to re-hash it yet again....

That's great advice (seriously), but depending on your location that may be quite a challenge, to cull through the hundreds of nearby micros to find one to hunt.

OK, I started this thread, I moved a TB or two "against goal" (out of literally hundreds of TBs moved thousands of miles (as a professional traveling consultant)), let me tell you how much I don't "get" the game: (1) When I started playing over 5 years ago, this game was about finding not-micro-sized containers in the woods, where the primary focus was getting out to locations you wouldn't have otherwise discovered. Cache hides may or may not have been challenging, but the goal was to ultimately ACTUALLY FIND the container, and more often than not without having to fear detection by non-cachers. And one could count on a majority of containers being large enough to actually hold a travel bug (let alone any other trinkets). It's true that one can still play the game that way, but it is also clear that the majority of this game is no longer played this way. (2) When I started playing over 5 years ago, the Travel Bug part of this game was straightforward. You bought TB tags from Groundspeak, and you knew that if you released a TB out to the Geocaching community at large, you did so at your own risk, with no further controi. All you could reasonably hope for was that cachers would log the movements properly, and since our game was more of a subculture and less mass-market than it is now, you had a better chance that most cachers had a "clue" and could learn the basics of correct TB logging without their brains exploding. It's true that one can still play this part of the game that way, but it's also clear that a signficant part of it is no longer played this way. (3) When I started playing over 5 years ago, TB stats were generally legit. You either moved TBs, or logged notes when you "saw" TBs, and that's how your stats were gathered. Soon, competition for these stats overtook the original purpose of TB movement, and "Discovered it" was born. Then, competition for "Icons" became a focus, and the GeoCoin business exploded. Now, instead of GeoEvents being about the oringal intent of cachers socializing and sharing stories and caching experiences and tips, they're primarily about coin sales and the exchanging of lists of Tracking Numbers so that attendees can artificially inflate their stats and icons. You're right. I don't "get" the game anymore. I work to find caches that take me to interesting locations, and I move and correctly log TBs. I just don't get it.

Couldn't agree more. And I wrote this article back in '04 to express the same intent (it was pre-Katrina but I think it's still applicable to anywhere now...)

Just a "thoughts and prayers" post to everyone in SoCal re the fires, from a Katrina survivor in South Mississippi who appreciated the same from the caching community when we had our disaster in '05.

Those Mississippians...what a bunch of whiners! (hehehehe...see my location, left <--- )

I just don't get the school of thought which ignores the goals of the owners, but whatever works for ya... As far as the tweak of your handle, that was actually a typo. However looking back and reading your response perhaps it was a Freudian slip. Thank you for confirming why I seldom cache anymore. TB carrying is pretty much all I do "actively" anymore; with all this whining I may just have to stop that too. Guess I'll just leave the TB game to all the "discoverers" now, so you can all revel in all your glorious icon stats...whoopity doo.

You release a TB, you take your chances. I commute between the Gulf Coast and MN every week; TBs go with me unconditionally, and I log their movements properly. You should expect nothing more or less than that. And I also caught your tweak of my GC handle; very mature. As I stated to the other TB owner in my OP: Grow up.