Maingray

I doubt it's an issue of GS playing nice or not; they were likely simply believing the CO. Volunteers are well, human, and Reviewers / Lackeys have to have some faith in the CO's honesty. Sometimes, honesty is they all can rely on. Neither I nor you can prove the intention of this cache, but pocket (aka moving aka event-only) caches are not new, were banned years ago for rampant abuse, and some groups still try and get them through by any means possible (and within businesses..and armchair caches.. and virtuals..ignore offlimit areas..etc etc). I've seen many examples and suggestions on Facebook of how to do this.

Exactly. Our pathogenic friend speaks great sense.

First looks: http://gpstracklog.com/2013/11/garmin-monterra-android-first-looks.html

I'd recommend either the Oregon 450 or 62S. Kids will easily navigate the Oregon, 62S less easily. But with the ribbon menu and knowing what each bytton does, they would get eventually.

I agree, and this needs to be revisited. But again, I place this at the feet of local cachers rather than directly with Groundspeak.

Agreed. However, a state wide organization..community... can do this. I'd rather it was handled by local cachers than a Washington-based company. To your example, I would argue that had VA a state organization with a mandate to act quickly and verbalize the issues to the VA DOT there might have been some compromise. I don't think a company based across the country would have helped. Groundspeak sets and evolves the global guidelines; reviewers filter on these; the local community then facilitates and sets it's own quality.

No... I didn't say that, I said that reviewers review according to the guidelines and current land policies. You don't see what isn't published as, well, it isn't published. My point was that there is a lot of active stewardship going on before it's listed. If things are missed, then the community can help by pointing issues out, or even "vote with their feet" and find / place things only they would like to find. No black helicopters.

Inner Sanctum ? The Guidelines aren't hidden from view.

Not really, cases like that should be managed locally, not in a thread about caching in general. I'm sure every Reviewer tries their best, but they are human. I was replying to Microdot who took the global view that Groundspeak doesn't steward the game.

I can't recommend Delorme for any of their handheld units. Shoddy build, non-intuitive UI and lack of recent handheld interest go against their use. It has maps, but tells you it can do step by step directions but it is completely suboptimal compared to the premium navigable maps garmin sell (they also sell satellite and topo solutions). Delorme do great maps, they should have stuck to that. For the OP, I'd go for either the 62s or the Oregon 450t and use some good rechargeable batteries. If the internal LiON is a deal breaker, then maybe the Montana. They also have one click transition from street routing to direct routing seems to fit your specific need.

..and you only see caches published as the result of review, where such things are considered and the guidelines evolve. You have no clue what things are pushed back and never listed which do harm the environment, are in areas which are clearly offlimits, areas that would otherwise be far too cache dense and environmentally damaging, or line highways (now oflfimits), or need permits... nor are these cases discussed publicly in respect to the CO. There is a LOT of stewardship that you simply never get to see. The review process is a great asset that we can offer to land managers.

I think that's a fair analysis. Given the degree of disparity I've experienced though, I struggle to map the concept of community as a group of people with common interests onto any particular subset of individuals. In fact I have to wonder if disparity and community aren't mutually exclusive? I think that it is fine to have different views on caching, but a community SHOULD exist which advocates the general hobby. If anyone pushes their own personal agenda at the expense of other's enjoyment and (for example) invokes a ban on a certain aspect of caching, then that is wrong. Hopefully community pressure and a general want for geocaching to persist will win out.

"Willing" to let guidelines slip just for power trails? Please give examples.

Sorry OT, but just want to correct some persistent errors in NC and beyond that I think give property managers the wrong impression. The only designated Wilderness (Birkhead) in the Uwharries is to the north of the Star. The Star is not in the Wilderness area, but in National Forest. I would be surprised if they had allowed 52+ dense caches in the Wilderness area. Yes, to your general point, there is progress and while NC National Forests did want ALL caches gone a few years ago (about 1,500 prime hiking caches across the state back then)...and back on topic, this progress was made a state wide organization pulling together with folks willing to (and empowered to talk by the state cacher community) communicate quickly to the NC National Forestry Service.

+1. The roadkill virtuals, amongst others, were the beginning of the end. All you see now are, in the main, the creme de la creme of Virtuals, a snapshot if you will, and it gives people warm fuzzies. Luckily, they won't be back (unless in some new, twisted permutation via the Lab Cache).

That's not in the Wilderness-defined area, and would have only required permission from the NFS. But yes, the NC state caching organization brokered a permit system with the NFS in NC, which originally wanted all caches out *that day* statewide (Uwharries, Pisgah..). The wilderness and NFS areas in NC have dedicated Rangers assigned to each district who actually interact with cachers and other activities for permission. It's great to see them now allow some caches even in their Wilderness areas. It's a great area, not too rough or hard hiking, and there are still some restriction on proximity to trails, renewal etc. Working together, statewide, is cool. PS While you may think the Rangers on the ground have the best knowledge, it's usually not the case when it comes to things like geocaching permission. They often give folks bad information "on the trail". And while Reviewers may speculate, they usually know the overall caching picture in the area..and advocate for it's best interest and make sure no caches are placed offimits. They use maps and permit numbers, not speculation. Which, back to the OP, is something that should be in his / her final dissertation report .

Agreed. Much the same for this area, so as much as possible is transparent.

I think the main problem is that a lot of people feel that the log name is too severe, and will apparently often ask the Reviewers, via email, to deal with the cache rather than post the NA log.

As has been mentioned, Wilderness (designated) do not usually allow caches and unless they have permission / overlooked by reviewers, there wont be any in there. When you communicate back to the Wilderness guys (and for your own information as this will impinge on your hypothesis) , please make sure that they know there is a review process for a cache to to be listed on geocaching.com, and that the reviewers are happy to work with any general permit scheme they come up with . I'd love to see well-thought out and well placed caches be more common in Wilderness areas. PS here is a good and useful resource to find designated Wilderness areas in the USA, and who manages them. http://www.wilderness.net/map.cfm

"Reviewer Attention Required" should be the new "NA". It's a better description and loses the angst some folks have.

Much the same conversation with a lackey as Keystone. I found 5 Lab Caches at the Hampton Roads Picnic Mega in VA this weekend with a lackey. They were fun, nice large containers and a good online history lesson with each one. Physical codes present at each one to log them in the Lab "web app". The link to the cache were provided by a QR code and a URL within the registration package and scattered throughout the event site. Some tech glitches with the phones working for some, but all worked well.

Cute, thanks! Yeh, lots of confusion with the number of souvenirs..here was all that they said, "Start plotting your crafty strategy, rally your friends and prepare for a month of geocaching like no other. August is being celebrated by geocachers around the world as the “31 Days of Geocaching.” Find a geocache, log a “Found it” (or an “Attended” for an Event Cache) and earn a unique calendar-style Geocaching souvenir for each day in August. That’s 31 souvenirs up for grabs." http://blog.geocaching.com/2013/07/geocaching-plans-for-july-13-and-all-of-august-you-do-now/

Just past eleven years here.

Shall I tell him? Or you?

Good stuff.