L0ne.R

Not all COs are friendly and nice benefactors. Many only want to supply lots of smileys. It's not always kind to send finders to unattractive locations for poor quality, abandoned hides.

Me too. I find it helps if you state that in your cache description. For example we said this on one of our cache listings: "Please let us know if the cache is in need of repairing - even small repairs. Thanks." And you know what, someone let us know that the magnets holding the cover down were not fastening properly. But... they put it in their found log not an NM. Experienced cacher too. 10+ years of activity. Hesitant to use the NM log. In the end, it falls upon cache owners to read all the logs that come through and respond to issues no matter what log is used. And they should do it in a courteous way so that they don't scare off finders from logging NMs and NAs and important information in other types of logs if they choose. So because many finders (probably most finders) won't use NM/NA, and many owners won't respond to issues, GCHQ had to come up with another tool to encourage COs to monitor and maintain their caches. It helps keep their database attractive to customers. Seems like a good business strategy to me.

The problem is more and more finders in more and more places globally will not log an NM or NA. If they say anything it’s in a ‘found it’ log, a DNF and sometimes a note. They don’t want to get an owner upset or get labelled ‘cache cop’. If owners get irritated by a CHS note, imagine the kerfuffle an NM or NA could cause. Just recently I received an angry reprimand from an owner for logging an NA (signs and fencing said the trail was permanently closed).

The D/T rating is a tool, not a score.

Which cache? What's the D-rating?

I'm glad I opted out of the new version. I agree, there should be no default log.

Noting what it looks like on the app and on the website. The app: and what it looks like on the website: We have to select our log type, it's not automatic. But I see that someone could tap/click the first item on the list and not read the options. In that case, 'Write Note' as it appears on the website, is a better first option on the list.

In the Help Center Groundspeak suggests that it means the cache is placed above the snow line.

Pot/kettle? Not necessarily. Follow the guidelines. As finders we would never leave throwdowns, and report any damage to the cache or environment. As hiders we would act quickly on reports. We would monitor and maintain what we leave behind. Remove that item when we no longer want to monitor and maintain it. We would not damage the area when placing the cache so that when the cache is removed there would be no trace. If geotrails form, the cache could be moved, or removed and archived.

I don't recall advocating for that - you've come to the wrong conclusion there. OK, so what is your point when you said "the national park service here just nail signs into trees all the time.... doesn't seem to bother them.... as does our Royal Botanic Gardens....."?

You are correct. The best were a couple of DNFs. A DNF in Dec 2019. Followed by 2 finds on March 8th 2020, one that said "Only cache lid remains, informed CO" (should have added this to the above post). Followed by the list of 4 finds I posted above. Followed by a DNF. Followed by 4 more finds on the lid. A couple of people posted a photo of the lid - a very cracked peanut butter jar lid with a 1 inch hole. Followed by an OM in April, when the owner visited with a replacement cache.

The CO did not object: S Premium Member 1 1 Found it 03/17/2020 ****Geocache is gone!! **** Here’s a pic of the remains we found T Premium Member 2 Found it 03/16/2020 Found only the broken lid. I’ll take it as a find. a Premium Member 3161 Found it 03/12/2020 Met up with <> for a pleasant walk thru <> Park only a broken lid with geocache printed on it .. will claim as a find a unless CO objects... cache container needs replaced as this was a good place to hide it. K Premium Member 3327 Found it 03/12/2020 Met up with <> to capture some caches in <> Park; ..all we could find was a lid off the cache container, but nothing else! Needs to be replaced Unless CO objects, we are claiming a find here!

There is a guideline for throwdowns and how COs should handle them (visit their cache and remove the throwdown). If I recall from other forum discussions, if finders complained their logs would be reinstated. From the guidelines below it sounds like everyone but the person who left the throwdown get to keep their find. https://www.geocaching.com/help/index.php?pg=kb.chapter&id=38&pgid=427 7.11. Respond to "throwdowns" Throwdowns are strongly discouraged A “throwdown” is a container placed by a geocacher who cannot find the original cache. Some geocachers place throwdowns so that they can log a find on a cache that they suspect is missing. Geocaches should never be replaced without the permission of the cache owner. This can lead to multiple containers, geocacher confusion, and disputes about whether someone is entitled to log a find or not. How to handle throwdowns Cache owners are responsible for maintenance. When you are aware of throwdowns, check if your cache is still there and remove the throwdown cache. Consider disabling the cache until you can remove the throwdown or replace the original cache. If you do not disable the cache, you may want to honor Found It logs for the throwdown. However, the geocacher who placed the throwdown does not have a strong claim to log the cache as found.

That said, even ammo cans have their limits. Yes, definitely. In a fire, the metal may have survived but the gasket is unlikely to be intact. I had an ammo can that was outdoors for 3 years, then the hinge pin holding the lid on rusted and snapped. I've seen a number of rusted holes in ammo cans. They are great but need to be checked once in a while. And I've seen intact ammo cans with a mess inside that could use a complete overhaul. No cache is full-proof. Ammo cans are fantastic but even they need to be attended to and sometimes replaced. Here are a few examples in rough shape:

Sure, if the CO provides a logbook which s/he checks. If the online logger's signature is not in that logbook, then he can legitimately delete the log because it appears to be false.

I would argue that it is up to the owner to provide the log and keep a functioning log in the cache. He did not. As a result of his negligence, deleting online find logs is not justifiable.

OK. Sounds like you are opting out of putting a gasket in the peanut butter jar lid.

Sounds like you arguing that a gasket can sometimes fail and therefore not worth having in a recycled jar, or ammo can. Maybe you are warning people not to place caches upside down. I agree, I've seen water mishaps because a cache container was placed upside down.

Excellent advice.

I've used peanut butter jars. And I've seen many peanut butter jars used as cache containers. They all leak. But... Not if you put a gasket inside the lid. Cut out a circle of fun foam (or rubber) to fit snuggly inside the lid.

I see that too. I wonder if some cachers feel that the important thing is keeping the listing active. Perhaps they're hoping that if the listing remains active maybe someone will toss a throwdown and keep it going, before a reviewer gets wind of the growing DNF list. I don't understand why else they are unwilling to disable.

And this is an example of quality community maintenance on that abandoned cache:

The trend I see is that containers and logbooks are for the most part, treated by COs like items that are forced upon them in order to list a cache. They look for minimum cost and effort to comply. Something free or cheap (under a dollar), most unsuitable for outdoor use that will not keep the log dry. They use scraps of paper which they never intend to look at again. When the scraps get full finders replace or add more scraps of paper. Because finders prop this type of CO behavior up, by leaving more scraps rather than logging NMs, some areas get more caches like this. Until it's really difficult to find anything but bare-minimum, unmaintained, poor quality, community-maintained caches.

I absolutely do not see this happening in Canada, where we have the feature. It's rarely used. But when it is used (in either direction), I really appreciate it. I'm in Canada and agree. It's rarely used and not really of much use.

Peanut butter jars don't have narrow necks.