Zeke&Josie

I agree – As a hiker I’m disappointed as well. What’s interesting is that the “product specialist” told me that the trip odometer should always read greater because, since it is bouncing around inside the accuracy circle every second it will continually add up that inaccuracy and add it to the total distance. When I told him that I was consistently getting a lower measurement compared to the track log he implied that I was not reading it correctly. I think the problem has less to do with accuracy of the reception, and more with type of terrain traveled and moving along a straight line at a constant speed/velocity. In other words the less movement in the x-y plane the more accurate the information. I guess that is fair to expect, but I just didn’t think the error would be so great. Maybe Garmin thinks we’re hiking along interstates. I guess I should have been clued into the “flakiness” of the trip computer page when, out of a 105 page owner’s manual it receives only 1 page of instruction - yet instruction on how to play the games like “Gekoids” receive 4 pages. I have always had a good experience with their support. In this case I was treated like I was bothering him and that I was expecting something from this GPSr that it was never design to do. Utimately maybe I am.

I spoke with Garmin today about this Trip Computer issue. First let me say that their tech support was extremely busy and the “product support specialist” I received was about as receptive as a pissed off badger. After-holiday blues along with dealing with hundreds of Garmin customers all morning probably had something to do with it. Anyway I started off with the question “As a hiker how do I determine how far I have traveled along a given path or trail” His answer was what I expected – “Use the odometer on the trip computer or save the track log” After I explained to him the significant measurement differences I was receiving between the two (see my previous post) he then explained that it would not be uncommon to see those differences because the two pages/methods measure distance readings in totally different ways. He stated that the odometer updates a distance/position every second (you cannot change the method) and based on satellite coverage (i.e. accuracy) and “many” other parameters this distance could have errors. He did not go into the definition of “many”. The track log however is user defined (with a default value of “auto”). He stated that “auto” is probably the most accurate of these user defined methods. Which is what I always keep mine set on. So once again I asked him “So As a hiker how do I determine how far I have traveled along a given path or trail. Which is the more accurate the odometer or the track log” The answer was “It all depends” and without looking at satellite coverage and many other parameters (eg. type of terrain traveled) one or the other may be more accurate. The only way to definitely confirm is to download the track log to the computer and compare it to a map. Yeh- I’ll just pull out my laptop computer that I carry along the trail He also stated that the GPS60CSx it designed to give the consumer only “estimated or general information, not an exact measurement” (which in some respects I agree). After waiting on hold for an hour and speaking with him for 10 minutes I ultimately never really got answer to my question. I’m certainly not expecting this GPSr to provide me a measurement down to a gnat’s a**, but when the differences in the two readings are, in some cases, 100%, it makes me wonder. Am I the only one that finds this disheartening? One of the most basic questions a hiker has along a trail is to know how far they have traveled or how miles remaining to get to their destination. I made the assumption when buying this product that it would provide me with a semi accurate, at-a-glance, answer to that basic question. Stupid me!!! I’ll just go back to looking at the map like I’ve been doing for years.

Actually what I found out is that accuracy has very little to do with the problem and, assuming I do not have a defective unit, I consider this a major problem. All you need to do is go on a hike and you’ll see the problem. This weekend while hiking I did some “experiments” and here is what I found out: While hiking to a destination the Garmin GPS60CSx tallied up the following information upon my arrival (accuracy was between 15 – 45 feet during the trip). Track Log – 9.28 miles Odometer (from Trip Computer Page) – 8.08 miles The green trails map and hiking description specify a length of - 8.8 miles If I had to take a guess I would say that the Track Log was the most accurate due to washout and blowdown detours we had to take. I decided to measure the return trip and the GPSr gave me the following information: Track Log – 9.31 miles Odometer – 7.45 miles Interesting that the Track Logs were almost identical and the odometer was significantly different from both its first measurement and reality. The next day I hiked up to a different destination and got the following data: Track Log – 2.7 miles Odometer (from Trip Computer Page) – 1.73 miles The green trails map and hiking description specify a length of - 2.7 miles The return trip gave the following info: Track Log – 2.65 miles Odometer (from Trip Computer Page) – 2.08 miles Once again - Interesting that the Track Logs were almost identical and the odometer was significantly different from both its first measurement and reality While driving home from the hike I decided to do the same experiment in the car and noticed that if you‘re traveling at a relatively constant speed the odometer is fairly accurate. Once you start doing a lot of stop, go, accelerating and decelerating the odometer’s error becomes larger and larger. Here is what I think is happening. The odometer has nothing to do with your position being tracked across a “map”. I believe it (the algorithm) uses speed and the time traveled to determine a distance traveled (i.e. D=RXT). In the world of hiking, where you are typically traveling between 0-4mph, going up switchbacks, taking a break, looking at the scenery, etc, these speed errors (which at these slow rates are already full of errors) translates into an even worse odometer reading. So if this is the case, what else is bogus info on this GPSr? How else do you determine an accurate distance traveled at a quick glance? I mean this is a $450 GPSr, shouldn’t I be able to determine how far I’ve travel without going through the steps of saving a track log???

I was curious if anyone else noticed an issue relating to the trip computer page on the Garmin GPSMAP 60CSx I have noticed that if you are in an area where the accuracy reaches a certain point (approximately 100 feet) and/or the GPSr goes into 2D mode, the “Odometer” will no longer continue to “count up” even though you are still moving. The “Stopped” time will also begin counting up, in other words the unit thinks you are standing still even though you are still moving. However if you go to the map page the present position icon will continue to show (fairly accurate) your movement along the map. In other words, depending on which page you look at, your either moving or you’re stopped. As an example I walked along a 4 mile trail last weekend and the unit, for a continuous period of time, entered 2D mode with an accuracy of approx. 100 feet (I had some fairly large mountains to my sides and front). At the end of the trail I only showed 3.06 miles traveled. When I was able to get back into 3D mode and 15 feet accuracy at the end of the trail, the unit began counting from 3.06 miles (i.e. it does not catch itself back up). Both the map, hike description, and the track log confirm the trail at approximately 4.0 miles. Can anyone else confirm this anomaly????

In my humble opinion Garmin should not label it as a "barometer". It should be label exactly what it is - an altimeter, and like an altimeter, the pilot is always adjusting the kollsman window to the current altimeter setting (i.e. in Hg) from the closest airport, Flight Service Station, etc to ensure he/she has an accurate altitude reading on their altimeter. I stand corrected. It is labeled as altimeter. I guess what I'm referring to is the pressure plots. To me it's useless data.

You are correct. The more often you calibrate the GPSr the more accurate your information is going to be. Of course if you are hiking the only known data is going to probably be your elevation (assuming you are not carrying your trusty wx station with you). It all comes down the the old saying "garbage in, garbage out".

Here’s my observations on the barometric pressure readings for the Garmin GPSMAP 60CSx. I’ve had it for approximately 2 weeks and have not had any issues or problems. I have a fairly expensive weather station at home so I’m lucky enough to have an accurate barometer reading when I calibrate the GPSr. If I calibrate it using my known elevation the barometer reading is always within .01 inHg. If I calibrate using my known baro reading from my weather station, the Garmin is always within 10 feet of the true elevation. So the GPSr (as far as barometer) seems to be accurate. In the “inHg” measurement world .01 = 10 feet, .10 = 100 feet and 1.00 inHg = 1000 feet. So as far as I can tell the Garmin GPSMAP 60CSx is not a true barometer (it is not a weather station). In other words when you input a known barometer reading or known elevation, and then begin an ascent or descent it is using the baro data to determine, or get a more accurate determination of the elevation. So if you are standing still for a long period of time and a low pressure system begins to move in around you, the GPSr will think that you are climbing.

I guess it’s my turn to chime in with my two cents about the new Garmin GPSMAP60CSx. I received my new “toy” last Tuesday after owning the Garmin GPS III plus for many years. My first impressions were that it was a huge step forward. So here are my observations: Pros: Nice color screen, easy to read in bright conditions. Quick reception/acquisition of satellites, and continued lock-on, even in heavily wooded areas, is very, very impressive. I even walked around inside a large store/warehouse (with a high ceiling and large glass store front) and my tracks on the map page were extremely accurate. I tried this in another store, just for fun, but ended up losing reception. It had a much lower ceiling and no glass store front. Barometer appears to be extremely accurate. I have a weather station at home and it is always within .01Hg. Extremely accurate as far as position. But I guess that’s the purpose of a GPS. Cons: The “wandering around” problem. The GPS seems to think it’s moving even when it is at a full stop. Example: If you set the GPS down and watch the trip odometer it can actually register a movement of up to ½ mile (or more) after about an hour. Garmin needs to address this issue immediately and it needs to be their first priority. Like many other people I spent hundreds of dollars on a GPS for accuracy. Another problem I have noticed is on the odometer page, the “moving time” will immediately start advancing once it registers a movement (i.e. greater than 0.0) however once you stop (i.e. speed is showing 0.0), stopped time does not begin advancing. It may be that the “wandering problem” and this issue are related – which I am being told by Garmin ultimately relates to the sensitivity of the SIRF chip. Basemap, as far as highways, is non-existent. The major interstates and major highways are shown, but my 5 year old Garmin GPS III plus had a much better basemap. I guess its Garmin’s way of making you purchase their extra maps – which I have done. Real time tracking will not work. I have seen this issue reported on this forum and I know other people are having the same problem. This appears to be a problem with all programs - nroute, and all third party programs. It will transfer maps, waypoints etc, but will not real time track. I have spoken with Garmin and they have not heard of this being a problem. I guess we need to all speak up. I have contacted Garmin, by phone, twice, on some of these issues this week. The first representative was not aware of the wandering problem. The second representative said they had a meeting that morning about the issue and was told that the engineers are working to resolve the “wandering” issue in the next firmware update. Summary: My primary purpose for the upgrade to the new 60CSx was because of the increased sensitivity and reception due to the SIRF chip. My favorite pastime is hiking, and over the years I have always lost satellite reception once I entered the woods. This should no longer be a problem, so ultimately I am very satisfied with the new product.