rogbarn

Thanks to 5Wishes for another group of county errors. There certainly are a lot of them out there. Just a comment to anyone reading this that wants to send in corrections. In my experience, the NGS is pretty firm in requiring the PID and the designation when identifying stations needing corrections. Knowing what they need will help them cut down on the paper work needed to process all the corrections we're sending in. Also, in the post from 5Wishes, no state was entered. It looks like a minor omission, but it really helps. Fortunately, I had just read the post with the link to the map of PID prefixes, so I figured it out pretty quickly. Hopefully, 5Wishes has already done that. (Sorry, I'm not trying to pick on you, just wanted to point out how to make reporting easier).

Thanks for the update and the details. A bit of clarification: NA0635 now shows on the NGS site with designation S 310. But the stamping shows "STAMPING: S-130 1942". Do you know if they will update the stamping?

In this thread on center of population markers, I speculated that they took an existing mark and converted it to a center of population marker. I don't know if that is correct. Since it is only 33 miles from my house (straight line distance), I will put in on my list of interesting nearby markers I need to find someday.

Shucks, for a minute I thought I saw pocket queries for benchmark lists. Sigh.

Any idea why JV0578 is now listed as Howard County? All the others have not changed.

I started a new topic in the NGS forum for listing database problems exposed by holograph's new website. While I agree that dates can be interpreted in different ways, the issues are usually interpretation not database problems. But in many other cases, there is a problem with the information on the datasheet. That's what I started the new topic for. Go here: Extreme Errors, originating from extreme benchmarking.

holograph has started a neat new website called Extreme Benchmark Hunting. He also started a thread called Extreme Benchmarking in the regular Benchmark Hunting forum to talk about it. His method of listing the extremes by various catagories in each state is one of the main methods that I have of identifying possible errors in the NGS database. This is why several people have started waving their hands to identify problems in his list. Most of the time, the problems are in the database. Use the opportunity to research the problems and then send it in to the NGS, making sure you include the PID, the designation and a careful description of the problem, including any research that you did and possible explanations that might help them find the problem. For example, I found a group of 5 stations that had obviously incorrect elevations. I estimated their elevation from topozone. Playing with the numbers a bit, it became obvious that the elevations were recorded in feet but entered in meters. Problem and solution in one package. I've started this thread to allow specific problems to be listed so we don't step on each others toes. Although the research isn't necessary, having the PID and a brief description of the problem will help all of us know what problems have been identified. Plus, I'll be able to add it to my list of errors identified by geocaching and reported to the NGS.

A very interesting compilation. I had a lot of fun going thru all the different parts. I have a couple of comments/suggestions: On the Extreme Benchmark Hunting page: a. There is a link to the GC page. How about a link to the NGS page so we can easily get the latest datasheet? The format is: http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/ds_mark.prl?PidBox=LE0438 b. Why does Missouri show 5 stations with no altitude. You seem to (properly) exclude stations with zero altitude in other states. On the Geocaching Benchmark Hunting Statistics page: Include the top 10 (or whatever you decide the cutoff should be) similar to the way you do it on the Extreme Benchmark Hunting page. And lastly, a count of geocaching recoveries by state. Just some ideas, whether you use them or not is up to you. Thanks again for the great page.

One of my favorite recoveries was for JY1113 (GC page and NGS datasheet) which I reported to the NGS. The following year, the Ohio Dept of Trans filed a report which gave it a poor condition because it is now under a wooden deck. I wonder if my report prompted the subsequent visit and report. Has anyone else had a similiar experience?

In researching my previous reports to the NGS, I realized that I have 10 reports listed under INDIV before GEOCAC was available (or at least before I knew about). Once a good list of initials are created in the other thread, it would be interesting to see how many reports can be found with our initials under the INDIV grouping. If you have made such reports, put a count here and let's see how many we get: RCB: 10

APC: ArtMan BDH: Bill93 BMC: BuckBrooke Buckner Miller Creel V CB: GEO*TRAILBLAZER 1 GJA: 299792458 Gerard Ashton GRR: gnbrotz MHB: Embra MPR or MR: elcamino RCB: rogbarn TAK: Black Dog Trackers WD: seventhings

Where is this sinkhole?

Does the date in parentheses have some special significance? Is it just the date of the adjusetment? Is an adjustment made in 1986 somehow different than one made in 1992 if they both use NAD83? I've never paid much attention to those dates and I'm wondering if I'm missing something.

hehe. I love statistics. Thanks. How many of those geocaching recoveries were "Recovered as described" and how many had additional information?

It is certainly a confusing situation. I'll admit that I've had fun examining various maps, plotting various coordinates, trying to interpret various clues. The only thing that I can think of is that two different datasheets got crossed and the coordinates for one got listed with the description of the other. In two different cases. At this point, my suggestion is to email Deb and/or Cheryl with all your findings and wait. Since it is not an easy fix and research will have to be done, don't expect a quick response (but you never know!) Meanwhile, keep up the benchmark hunting and may your next hunt yield easier findings. p.s. Is that the entrance to the Lincoln Tunnel just to the east of the school?

My understanding is that it is easier to get intersection points (those towers, spires, tanks, chimneys, etc) listed as destroyed than markers. I culled out a group of markers in Missouri that had refereneces in their description to being destroyed. I sent them off to Deb Brown without any further documentation. She accepted some of them and gave me this guideline: "In the future, if you come across any text that says the station is actually destroyed (not just "will be" or "possibly") and the reporting agency is NGS or a state related then those would be the ones to let me know about." Sometimes we find stations that actually mentioned that they were destroyed but are still listed as not found. This helps us determine when we can easily have them officially changed to destroyed.

Happycycler and I have been on two benchmark hunts and both were lots of fun. I'd travel some to meet fellow hunters and do some hunting. Happycycler might even come with me. We're in St. Louis and I'd consider driving an hour or even two to find a mutually convenient place.

Wow, that's quite a list! I'm now up to 616 entries in my table. Keep 'em coming. > FO1716 (listed as Grant county; there never was a Grant County. It's near Grants, NM, in Cibola County. It refers to Grants as being in Valencia County. Very confusing, if you don't know what's real) Well, there is a Grant County in New Mexico, it just not there. It's further south, I-10 runs thru it. Of course, it's still a problem since, as you mention, it's really in Cibola County. > Listed as Cibola county, might be Cibola county due to SCALED > ER0116 They might not accept this change, but you never know. The description doesn't help resolve any. But I think it is firmly enough in McKinley County that it should be changed.

Wow, between Artman, BuckBrooke and 5Wishes, I've added over 50 stations to my list of geocaching assisted corrections. As usual, I have a couple of nitpiks: BuckBrooke - FO1678 (GUAJE) is already listed as NM, Los Alamos. FO0098 is B 81, FO0095 is A 81 I'm still wondering about KV4107. It will make for an interesting report from Harry when he gets back there. I'm also wondering about Peaked Mt. The amazing part is the I used to live in the same town, Monson, Mass. (it was 25+ years ago. where does the time go?) I never visited Peaked Mt. though. Also, Bill93 said: > I've got some routine destroyed intersection stations reported and pending also, but I don't think Roger is counting those. Actually, I found a group in Missouri that were officially listed as "not found" but the description clearly indicated that they were destroyed. I sent them to Deb and she accepted them as destroyed. The interpertation is fairly strict, I sent a larger group and in some cases the description only implied that they were destroyed, or would be a some future point, or something like that. Deb left all of those as is. It had to say specifically that the station was destroyed. But, since it is helping to clean up the database, I did include those in my list. If Bill93 wants to post or send me his list, I will include those also. Thanks to everyone for their contributions. It's interesting to see how much we are helping.

Welcome to the wonderful world of benchmark hunting! To help you decipher datasheets better, I would suggest that you go to the Tell me more about DATASHEETS link on the main NGS datasheet page. From here the two best pages are under the heading FORMAT, "samples" with hyperlinks to explain some of the various sections and "specifications". There a lot of material in there. Be aware that some sections of the datasheet are not useful to the benchmark hunter but others can be very useful if you know what you are reading. In particular and in reference to your questions: 1. The coordinates on the datasheet is about the 8th line down, starting with "* NAD". It provides coordinates in the format of DD MM SS.S or DD MM S.SSSSS. Longitude provides for a three digit for degrees. This can be entered manually into your GPS by changing the units of the GPS to DMS or by converting the DMS to the usual GPS default of DD MM.MMMM and then entering. Or, you can run the datasheets thru BMGPX to create a GPX file that can be loaded to your GPS automatically. 2. Many descriptions give meters first and the feet in parenthesizes. Meters is usually "m" or "M". If you give us a specific PID, we can read it and be a bit more sure about that generalization. I hope this gives you a start to understanding the datasheet and encouragement to go out and find the benchmark. As you learn more and have more questions, feel free to post them here, there are a lot of amateurs and professionals that will be willing to provide answers. edit for typos

CallawayMT - thanks for the additional info. Maybe someday, I'll get to visit them all! You mention 15 signature disks. At the NGS website about the events here, there are 15 events listed, but there were two disks placed at the Falls of the Ohio, one in Louisville, KY and one in Clarksville, IN. This makes 16 all together. Or am I missing something?

I just looked up the datasheets for the L&C markers in Missouri. I caught a county error on the one in St. Louis. It is listed in Cole County instead of City of St. Louis. If you look in the county file provided under "Get Misc Files" section of the yearly archives, Cole County is mo051.dat and the City of St Louis is mo510.dat. It looks like a typo during data entry. The problem with these county errors is that they do not appear in the correct county file which is a common way of downloading datasheets. I'll email Cheryl. I wonder if she feels her ears burning from all this mention of her name recently.

Artman - thanks for your list. That makes 429 stations in my list. plus I'll add the one from Harry to make 430. I should point out a few stats from this list: 430 stations listed 291 have been corrected 40 were left as is after research 4 were changed to destroyed 95 are pending 316 have county errors, sometimes across state borders 4 had obvious coordinate typos 53 were described as destroyed but were still listed as active 23 had bad elevations 34 had other miscelleous problems that require research

I would be very careful here. The coordinates for KV4106 are adjusted which means that it should be where your GPS says it is. That said, if you found the correct school (on Rand McNally, it shows "Daniel Webster Elementary School 2") and the spire you found looks like the one described in the description then perhaps you have a situation similar to the one I found in Paris, TN. GD1486 is described as "PARIS EPISCOPAL CHURCH SPIRE" but the coordinates point to the county court house, a couple of hundred feet away. In your case, my suspicion is that they described the wrong spire, the one at the coordinates is gone and therefore, the station should be listed as destroyed or least not found. Email Cheryl Malone with your findings (including that the school is described as School 2 on Rand Mcnally will help). But they still haven't decided what to do about the one in TN, so don't expect a quick answer. edit: change text GD1486 to a URL link to the geocaching benchmark page

I have tried to keep an informal list of the Lewis & Clark markers with some details about them. Now that several NGS people are actively reading these forums, I wonder if anyone can provide more detail? I should point out that although I list lat/long, in some cases it is _very_ approximate. Thanks for any help anyone can provide. Lewis and Clark Discovery II survey markers Seq # Event Name Location State Dedication date Latitude Longitude PID and/or nearby PID Designation 1 BICENTENNIAL INAUGURAL: JEFFERSON'S WEST Monticello, Charlottesville VA 1/14/2003 38.0099 -78.4536 near HW0496 2 Harper's Ferry WV 4/12/2003 39.3231 -77.7286 DF4764, near JC3935 HARPERS FERRY DISCOVERY II 3 FALLS OF THE OHIO Falls of the Ohio, Louisville KY 10/18/2003 4 FALLS OF THE OHIO Falls of the Ohio, Clarksville IN 10/25/2003 5 Western Governors Association Meeting, Washington DC 2/22/2004 6 The United States Mint, Philadelphia PA 3/12/2004 39.9529 -75.1482 7 THREE FLAGS CEREMONY St. Louis MO 3/13/2004 38.6457 -90.2856 8 The United States Mint, Denver CO 3/15/2004 9 EXPEDITION'S DEPARTURE: CAMP RIVER DUBOIS Camp River Dubois, Wood River IL 5/16/2004 38.8019 -90.1031 10 ST. CHARLES - PREPARATIONS COMPLETE, THE EXPEDITION FACES WEST St. Charles MO 5/22/2004 38.7733 -90.4821 11 Washington MO 5/24/2004 38.5610 -91.0102 12 Jefferson City MO 13 Kaw Point KS 6/26/2004 14 Kansas City MO 15 HEART OF AMERICA: A JOURNEY FOURTH Atchinson, KS KS 7/4/2004 39.6207 -95.0942 16 FIRST TRIBAL COUNCIL Omaha, NE NE 7/31/2004 41.4556 -96.0155 17 OCETI SAKOWIN EXPERIENCE: REMEMBERING AND EDUCATING Chamberlain, SD SD 9/24/2004 18 CIRCLE OF CULTURES, TIME OF RENEWAL AND EXCHANGE Bismark, ND ND 10/23/2004 46.764 100.849 19 EXPLORE THE BIG SKY Fort Benton & Great Falls MT 7/4/2005 20 DESTINATION: THE PACIFIC Long Beach, Washington to Cannon Beach, Oregon WA/OR 11/15/2005 21 AMONG THE NIIMIIPUU (THE NEZ PERCE) Lewiston and Lapwai ID 4/17/2006 22 CLARK ON THE YELLOWSTONE Billings MT 7/25/2006 23 REUNION AT THE HOME OF SAKAJAWEA New Town ND 8/20/2006 24 CONFLUENCE WITH DESTINY: THE RETURN OF LEWIS AND CLARK The Greater St. Louis Metropolitan Area MO 9/24/2006