Searching_ut

As has been mentioned, GPS requires a clear view of the sky to work correctly, so you'll need to take the unit outside and let it sit for awhile to update the almanac. Keep this requirement in mind when you use the unit over the years. Sometimes you'll get a lock when there is metal, or terrain blocking the sky. If you notice the unit doing this, don't count on the accuracy, because it's most likely receiving reflected signals (Multipath), which will result in accuracy problems. The position accuracy is based on the concept of the signal traveling in a straight line from the satellite to the receiver.

I've even loaded the old roads and rec, as well as the original TOPO maps into my Dakota 20 without any problems, although I have upgraded mapsource, which is free from garmins website. Right now I have a combination of the 24K topo, and GPS Filedepot maps loaded (TOPO Maps) loaded for 500 plus miles around me in any given direction. I didn't take the time to find any good maps for mexico prior to my recent trip down that direction, and did find that you don't want to rely on the basemap down there. It's pretty accurate for shorlines, and that sort of stuff, but the road data was off by as much as a quarter mile in many areas.

Thanks Starbrand, this is a very well done comparison. You've done a great job of figuring out worthwhile methods of trying to quantify the differences in the units.

For the most part, Raster maps are a negative in my opinion. That said, for many areas, or types of maps, especially photo type maps, raster maps are all that's available. Myself, I get frustrated enough with the currently available maps that I often wonder if they're worth the trouble. Map errors can often cause me more headache than not having a map at all. I haven't played with this new update for Garmin yet, so I'm not sure if you can overlay the images in the same manner you do on the Delorme units. There are several programs that will allow you to do so on the PC however, so you could build them that way prior to converting to the format required to upload if you needed to. On a small screen though, the vector maps really shine when you try to zoom in. To have high enough resolution in an image to zoom in tight requires significant amounts of memory. This means lots of disk space for storage, and long transfer times to move the data from place to place.

Interesting update. It will be a week or two before I get the chance to play with it, but hopefully, by then everyone else will have figured out how to easily do things by then so I don't have to learn the hard way myself . While I'm thinking people will figure out how to get aerial photos loaded somewhat easier than what I'm able to do with my PN-40, I doubt the memory issues of raster images will be easily overcome. It will be fun to see how this plays out.

OK, I do terribly bad reading between the lines and really need things to be spelled out pretty clearly for me so bear with me please. Am I correct in understanding you to be kind of saying that maybe the Spot is not as good as a PLB? I'm not trying to argue since I have no idea. I've got a Spot and was planning on upgrading to the Spot II in November so all this discussion is good info for me. Thank you for any clarification you can give me! I don't know that the data is really there yet to say one is definitely better. The ELB/PLB system has been around for years, and recently upgraded in regards to frequency use and the addition of PLB's. It has primarily been used by ships and aircraft until fairly recently. Some issues with PLB's, if you don't have a PLB with GPS, it can take a couple hours for the system to get your rough location, then the local search and rescue guys have to locate your exact location with short range equipment. Regarding the call centers, with a PLB it's a government sponsored multi country consortium, with the SPOT it's a private business that you pay a subscription fee to to provide either emergency response and automated all is well messages, or that and tracking via google maps. As for who rescues you, it will almost certainly be the same people either way. With a PLB, you still register the unit and provide contact info, and the emergency centers will first try to contact you to verify false alarms etc. Then they call local emergency services and provide the information that and emergency beacon has gone off, and any location data, and registration data that they may have. One thing that probably gives SPOT users a bit of concern is the way the Okay and tracking signals work. If the spot unit doesn't have a good GPS fix, it doesn't send the signal, expect for the 911 signal. The GPS unit in the older unit was older tech, much like the original etrex series, and often had GPS lock issues. With the new spot, I've so far found driving around, the tracking messages have gone out every ten minutes within just a few seconds. I've also found it will send out the "I'm Okay" signal, even if I power it up in my basement, which is an area that so far my PN-40 has never been able to power up in and get a position lock in. The spot also sent out the e-mail message within two minutes of my turning it on, albeit with a position error of almost 100 feet. (It showed me in the next door neighbors back yard) As I figure out how to share my maps, and travel places other than from home to work and back I'll post examples of how it tracks.

Does it come with batteries, and if so, what type? Thanks for posting this BTW. Maybe you can show us some tracking results? The unit came with 3 AAA Energizer Lithium disposables, with Lithium being recommended in the instructions. It also came with a case that can be cliped on with an included carabiner, or worn on your arm with an included arm band. Time will tell how long they last in tracking mode, and various other use patterns. I'll try to use the tracking feature and report my findings as soon as possible. I can easily do in the car, and urban areas, it's going to be a little difficult sneaking a back country trip in for maybe three weeks or so though. When I was at REI, they had a non GPS version of a PLB for $300, which is cheaper than a spot when you figure out the total cost for a couple years. I got the spot though because I mostly wanted something for non "Call out the everyone" sorts of emergencies, and to let people know roughly where I am since I wing it so much. PLB's are higher power transmitters, and should work well, but you can't really test them. So far, the SPOT seems to connect well, so I would expect a hgh probability that it would work in an emergency. Mostly though, I just want something to let people know roughly where I am, and to signal I'm okay, or stuck, but non 911 sort of trouble, friends or family please come and get me.... Regarding SPOT subscription price, $100 per year for basic service, an extra fifty for the tracking feature, and I paid 8 dollars for rescue insurance, which I have no idea if I need or not, but figured it was worth the maybe. I'll try to provide better details over the next few days.

As mentioned briefly in in another post, the topic of the soon to be released SPOT II, GPS, personal tracking device was of interest to me, or more importantly my wife because of some of my recreational behavior. My local REI just received a few, and I picked one up. Here are my first impressions of this device, which although not really a geocaching device, may be of interest to those who’s caching activities take them far from the beaten path, often times alone. SPOT for those unfamiliar with the device is a GPS receiver that doesn't provide navigational information, but instead uses a satellite phone network to send all is well signals, position data for tracking at 10 minute intervals you contacts can access through google maps, or that will send a 911 signal to the companies call center where they are supposed to notify authorities that you're in trouble. I find it of interest for use in areas where cell phones don't work. First, the new device is quite a bit smaller than the older SPOT. It’s about the length and thickness of an etrex, but a little wider. The unit takes 3 AAA batteries, under a O-ring sealed door that uses two screw type fasteners to secure. The screws are a little awkward to use on my unit sometimes trying to come out of the lid as well as the thread inserts, and aren’t the easiest to use, but you don’t change batteries that much so it shouldn’t be a problem. Well have to see what I think of this over time. The buttons on the unit flash with different lights, so you know when the unit is turned on or if it‘s sending messages, receiving GPS signals etc.. I’ve only observed the original spot in use, having never owned one, but from what I did see, the new unit gives much easier to decipher status information.. Most important though, the GPS receiver on the old type spot receiver was fairly low sensitivity and slow to lock. The new unit seems to have a competent modern receiver that locks on quite quickly, and the unit so far has been very reliable at sending my signals out. Having let the unit get a good GPS lock yesterday, I find today it will power up, lock on, and send an all is well message in under 4 minutes from inside my house. It will be a few days before I can play with the tracking feature in hiking type conditions, but so far the unit seems fairly impressive.

One thing I haven’t noticed being mentioned much yet, is that disagreement of opinions doesn’t mean lack of respect, or not “Getting along” I disagree on many things with those I respect and admire the most, to include my wife. We’re completely opposite in many areas, me being quite conservative, and her being quite liberal. That said, I think we complement one another quite well, and the result is a balanced team, better all around as a result of the combination, or differences. When it comes to GPS units, bottom line, virtually any modern GPS unit will do a great job getting you to the right spot to find a Geocache. Everything else is whistles and bells, the usefulness of which in the end is just opinion. It’s fun, and in my opinion somewhat educational to debate, but not really of any real importance. I will admit I probably learn more about different units because of the debate, and the “Reason X is Better than Y” definitions and comparisons than I do from using the units on my own.

However, putting them on your Garmin is NOT an option...sorry. You can trace it out, and either upload it as a route which, isn't particularly detailed, or upload it as a track. I generally use expertGPS to do this, mostly out of habit as I was doing it with my old yellow etrex 8 plus years ago. That unit didn't allow map uploads, but you could still see the track on the "Map" page. With the newer ones, the track will be overlaid on the map you are displaying. With my Dakota, I can upload hundreds of tracks, change the colors etc which is an easy way to map out trails prior to your adventure. edited to add, I'm pretty sure the free usa photo maps allows the same thing, or you can try a trial version of ExpertGPS

Is you legend one of the old blue ones with a serial cable that slides on, with big contacts you can easily see, or is it one of the newer versions that have a Mini USB connector you plug into the back?

Go to Amazon.com and search for"gps data logger mac". Seems to be several to choose from. Regards, Mike Any GPS that records a track can do what you want in regards to the timestamp, and the data can be downloaded and manipulated or printed out in many different formats. (I'm not a mac person so I'm not necessarily up to date on mac related issues) Rather than doing a printout, there are programs where you can direct the software to your track file, and the location of the photos, it will then go in and imbed the position data from the track into the exif date of the photo file automatically, based on the time the trackpoint was saved, and the time the photo was changed. Most of the programs even allow you to make adjustments for times when the cameras clock might have been off by a little bit.

Ah, this forum is light duty for not getting along. Try getting a bunch of 4 wheel drive buffs together in moab if you want to see some good banter. Of course it then turns into the testing and proving phase, which unites everyone in pitching in to pick up the pieces and trying to get everyone back from the trail so the crying in the beer can start, followed by the "banter" which leads to day two of carnage....... My wife would probably trust me to get together with this group. I'm of course banned from others.

This is true. Consequently, I find it just as convenient and more reliable to use the Topo maps that come bundled with my PN-40 for that. I just eyeball the current position indicator with respect to the bounding contour lines and estimate local elevation. Probably, good to within ±20ft and no worse than the barometric altimeter's estimation at its best. People like me, who are into Peak bagging sorts of adventures, and often use the GPS unit for fitness testing (In my case seeing how much age is slowing me down) tend to like the barometric altitude feature. GPS units have altitude errors of roughly twice the positional error, which makes using one to measure how much altitude you gained or lost difficult at best. Most people aren't so much involved in climbing, and only notice how far off their odometer readings are, without realizing the altitude data is even worse. for those who aren't into climbing though, I can't imagine the barometer to be anything but a waste of battery life.

The topo you're looking at can't currently be displayed on your 76 and has to be used in conjunction with a laptop. Unfortunately, the 24k type maps that can be loaded into don't show the elevation profile for below the surface of the water. Don't tell Roddy I said this, but the only easy way I know of to display a raster map like you're looking at on a handheld is if you use one of the Delorme units, with a subscription to download the raster maps. As far as the Garmin 24k you mentioned buying, Garmins 24K topo is based on DEM data which doesn’t show contour lines for the area covered by water, so the map doesn’t show where the main channel is. The old 1:100k topo shows them, and that’s what I use when I’m down there, but they switched that to a DEM model as well, right after version 3 I believe it was, so I don’t know where you might find a version made from old scanned USGS maps. Since you are only going to be in the area for a short time, I’d just download one of the free 24k maps for Utah and Arizona (The free southwest TOPO has the best data for Lake Powell, and shows the channel with a line), or go with TOPO 2008 rather than buy the 24k, which is somewhat pricey in large part because of the street data which you don’t need. Garmin has some other maps available for lake use, but I haven't ever tried or used them. Even though it will be on the cool side while you’re down there, I think you’ll love it. Some of the best scenery in the world, and unlike the summer months when boat swarm the lake like ants, you’ll probably find some quiet and solitude. Be advised, Rainbow bridge is about 50 miles or so from Wahweep, and those houseboats only putter along at between 5 to 10 mph so it will take you awhile to get there. Another plus about your going in the off season is that entering the canyon where rainbow bridge is, it gets narrow, enough so only one boat at a time can go through in one spot. In the summer, you can have dozens of boats jockeying for position in there, many driven by people who’ve enjoyed an adult beverage or two too many. The boats end up kicking up quite the waves due to how the wakes bounce off the cliff walls. As a result, it can be somewhat uncomfortable to get through during peak summer times, especially if you happen to get a little wind involved as well. A couple more pieces of advice would be to pick up one of the Lake Powell guide maps at the marina; you’ll find many points of interest on some of them. Also, be advised that while some of those big open areas of water can be quite scenic, when it comes time to camp, the wind can kick up fairly stiff in the evenings, which can result in some pretty big waves, so the smaller tighter areas tend to work out better to spend the night in.

Well, if Roddy can't make it, I'll volunteer to fill in for him. Second week of next September, in the Wolf Hole Mtn. area, about 30 miles south of St. George. Hey, if you're serious, e-mail or PM me a few months out. My life is such I can't make long range commitments like that, but I think it would be fun. Looking at the profiles, it looks like Roddy and the Michigan Cache dude like Arizona, and might be bribed if enough cold brew was involved. I haven't explored much south of Saint George, and would love the opportunity. If we all got together, we could scientifically test to see which is better. For user interface, I suggest bringing several newbies along. We'll set up a series of ice chest caches full of cold beer. To start, half will be given PN units, the other half Garmins. Once the GPS units have been handed out, someone who has consumed at least a 6 pack will take two minutes to explaing the operation of the unit. The newbies will then head out, finding and consuming the beers along the route. whoever makes it to the most ice chests obviously has the unit which is so easy even a newbie Drunk can use it. of course there might be a couple bugs to work out in this plan, such as what to do about the Delorme user who will inevitably get lost.......

For me, I just buy whatever I want, but try to keep it within reason as there are so many toys to get my hands on. Of course, life hasn't always been that way, and who knows what the future will hold. All I know is that now, thanks to being a Dave Ramsey sort for many years, and finally being an empty nester, the future looks toy filled. As to what gets used most, I'm somewhat curious as to what percentage of GPS owners geocache? I know maybe a couple hundred people with handheld GPS units, of that maybe two or three cache at least occasionally. I do a fair bit of hiking, and a remarkable number of the people you see once you get a few miles back have GPS units. Of those, most seem to have eTrex units, closely followed by 60 series, with many other units thrown in the mix in lesser numbers. How many of those Geocache though?

Wow, I thought I'd actually worked quite hard to list not just the pros of the PN series GPSr's, but also the cons. I haven't bothered to count the number of words for the pros and the number of words I typed for the cons of the Delorme GPSr's, but I thought it was about evenly split. I'm sorry that the "cons" of the unit really aren't all that impressive of a list. So that would leave me to ask a question of the Garmin loyalists. My question is, if my post was so incredibly imbalanced and not fair enough in pointing out the cons of the Delorme PN GPSr's could you please provide a link to just one of your posts where you've actually discussed in detail any cons of a Garmin unit you are recommending? Now to keep it on equal footing as my post you have to show me where you discussed the cons before anybody either pointed them out or asked about them. Maybe you folks have been just as up front about Garmins as I was about the Delormes which I am a HUGE fan of, but if you have been then I have to tell you I've missed those posts. ...... Ok, it's now been I believe about 34 hours since I wrote the post above. So far I hear a lot of Delorme bashing going on, but not a single person has been able to provide a link to prove that my challenge in the 2nd paragraph of my post quoted above was wrong. I guess that should tell folks something. Do you trust advice from folks that don't bother to give you the pros and cons? Or, do you trust somebody who did disclose not just the pros, but also dared to show the cons of the units he recommends and even after doing so still dares to declare even though it's not perfect he can still in good faith recommend it. I know I can sleep very peacefully tonight because I know I'm not withholding information from people asking for help. To the OP or anybody else reading all the bickering I don't know what to tell you. I've been very up front and honest in my assesment and also about my own personal experieces. I just wish others would also be as open with the products they recommend. Good luck in trying to dig any useful info out of these threads. It is there you'll just have to work harder to find it since some just come looking to disagree and argue. Happy caching! If you're looking for pro's and cons, feel free to look at the stuff I put out comparing my PN-40 to my Dakota. I called them as I see um there, pro's and cons alike. Unlike many here, I bought, payed for out of pocket, and have available to me mulitple different units. If I thought the PN-40 was that great, it's the one I would grab when I head out the door. As it is, I haven't given it away, but I prefer different units in most situations. Unlike many, if asked, I'll post examples where measureable showing what I see, why that which bothers me does so. For the most part, I don't even try to get into the "Which should I buy" discussions, except when I start seeing what I consider wildly exaggerated stuff, which from what I've observed tends to occur more with the PN-40 than most other units, which isn't really fair for those with limited budgets looking to get the unit that will work best for them in the sort of conditions they'll use it in. For those with exceptionally strong opinions on any specific unit. Do you actually have, own and compare side by side? What sorts of maps and mapping software do you have, and how do you use your map? How much do you travel, and in what sorts of areas? To give good advice, you've got to understand the differences in how terrain, vegetation etc. cause variation in behavior, and how maps vary in quality by region, topography etc. That's odd since I've seen some of the more exaggerated posts coming from you, especially about the routing. You also claim the PN series is bad for tracking while several others (who have made side-by-side comparisons) seem to indicate otherwise. In fact, aside from another poster who seems to like to make some crazy claims and even do some very "lopsided" research (say for instance, telling us that Garmin must be better because they've sold more units than DeLorme...well DUH. Let's see, DeLorme only markets to the USA?? DeLorme has been around a fraction of the time Garmin has...very scientific research there ), I find I have to come in and respond to more of your posts than most others. Comparing units for how YOU use it, knowing you don't use it primarily for caching, isn't helpful to those who are asking about a CACHING GPS. I believe everyone here will agree that there's a tool for every use and some tools can be used for more than one task but no unit is perfect or even suited for everyone....and OBVIOUSLY, the PN isn't your cup of tea. That doesn't mean it's not a great tool for those looking for a caching unit! You obviously know your electronics, but your reportings seem a bit biased to me....the bias being toward your usage. I love that a relatively newb poster and owner of the PN has come in and stated his displeasure in the CO (especially for CACHING)...how difficult it was to use etc. However, that poster backed what a few of us have said about the PN. I suppose he too is a fanboy and biased? For those wondering, I have owned the OR 300 and own the PN-40. I bought the OR 300 when I accidentally left my beloved ORANGE on the hood of my Jeep, right before a caching trip. I used the OR 300 in the presence of another OR owner who showed me a bit on how to use it, but still, even with my continual toying with it, couldn't get it to work as I had heard it would. I sent the OR 300 back as defective due to the compass and accuacy issues not indicative of proper function. During the time I used that unit, I was increasingly upset when trying to figure out how to use it (NOT due to suspected defective workings), so much so that I commented to my son that I'd love to smash it against a wall and then again under the tires of my Jeep. My son, about as unbiased as you can get (he just cares if we are directed to the right location without doing the drunken bee dance), announced the OR was JUNK (but some of that was due to the suspected defective workings). Now, I NEVER had the urge to smash my PN, never got that upset while learning to use it...telling, isn't it? Also, some will say I tried to learn the OR 300 on the fly...that's EXACTLY the same way I learned to use my PN-40! Some will even tell you I wasn't smart enough to figure out how to get the OR 300 set up properly...if it's THAT hard to figure out, why do some of those same people who told me that (not smart enough to set it up properly) also claim the PN is hard to use (or used to until we finally got through that it's not, they then moved on to claiming the T8 is hard to learn...more BUNK). Roddy, I kind of hate to debate your points, because you seem to be taking it a little personal. Just remember, I wouldn't mind sharing a beer or two with you, just disagree with your "Passion" on "Some" things. I didn't claim the PN- was bad for tracking, but I don't find it to never loose lock, or suffer accuracy issues as you've often claimed. Go back and look at my comparisons. I showed it does nice accurate tracks in good conditions, suffers some in others, and considered it to be very comperable to other modern units. You seem to take my not thinking it's better as a slam on the unit. I looked, I compared, and I tried to quantify to the extent possible. Remember, GPS units have this great little function called a track log where it saves data for you regarding where it thinks it is, altitude etc. It makes it very easy to quantify what is going on with the unit at intervals you select. By the way, I'd be quite interested in seeing your results if you could run two units side by side. I think you might even surprise yourself if you get out and try to measure and quantify your results rather than just go by perception. Regarding the maps/routing, take the time to try and see what others are pointing out. Wander out into a lot of different areas, see how the map accuracy issues really mess with routing/navigation in those areas, and run the side by sides to see how nice it is to have data on where you can and can't turn left, abiltiy to rapidly re-route, stuff like that. Once you've used good road navigation units, it's hard and extremely frustrating to try and use the PN-40 to get places. I've got a lot of different mapping products, and even have a copy of Delorme TOPO going back to version 2. I still think it ranks at the bottom of the pack for mapping products. Anyway, just remember, we're only talking about tools here, please don't feel it's a battle.

Something isn't working right here. You should easily be able to record the entire days track, as the eTrex line saves a minium of 10,000 trackpoints in the active track. Have you tried downloading your track to see if it's recording more than what is showing on the display for some reason? How many trackpoints is it saving prior to cutting out on you?

I wouldn't think you would have to worry about the units being compatible. Your Nuvi maps have to be unlocked for each unit it’s used in, so you would basically have to buy two copies of your street maps with two garmin units, or get separate software for each unit if you go multiple brands. Kind of makes it 6 of one, or half dozen of another as to how that would work out. Having two options for maps can be a plus sometimes, or lead you more confused at other times. There is a learning curve involved with having mapping products from different vendors, but I’ve never considered that to be a problem. Myself, I’d keep the nuvi, maybe update it’s maps if you haven’t already done so, then get the handheld with the feature set that suits you best, bearing in mind that whichever unit you get, you’ll have to get separate mapping software to use with it either way you go.

Wow, I thought I'd actually worked quite hard to list not just the pros of the PN series GPSr's, but also the cons. I haven't bothered to count the number of words for the pros and the number of words I typed for the cons of the Delorme GPSr's, but I thought it was about evenly split. I'm sorry that the "cons" of the unit really aren't all that impressive of a list. So that would leave me to ask a question of the Garmin loyalists. My question is, if my post was so incredibly imbalanced and not fair enough in pointing out the cons of the Delorme PN GPSr's could you please provide a link to just one of your posts where you've actually discussed in detail any cons of a Garmin unit you are recommending? Now to keep it on equal footing as my post you have to show me where you discussed the cons before anybody either pointed them out or asked about them. Maybe you folks have been just as up front about Garmins as I was about the Delormes which I am a HUGE fan of, but if you have been then I have to tell you I've missed those posts. ...... Ok, it's now been I believe about 34 hours since I wrote the post above. So far I hear a lot of Delorme bashing going on, but not a single person has been able to provide a link to prove that my challenge in the 2nd paragraph of my post quoted above was wrong. I guess that should tell folks something. Do you trust advice from folks that don't bother to give you the pros and cons? Or, do you trust somebody who did disclose not just the pros, but also dared to show the cons of the units he recommends and even after doing so still dares to declare even though it's not perfect he can still in good faith recommend it. I know I can sleep very peacefully tonight because I know I'm not withholding information from people asking for help. To the OP or anybody else reading all the bickering I don't know what to tell you. I've been very up front and honest in my assesment and also about my own personal experieces. I just wish others would also be as open with the products they recommend. Good luck in trying to dig any useful info out of these threads. It is there you'll just have to work harder to find it since some just come looking to disagree and argue. Happy caching! If you're looking for pro's and cons, feel free to look at the stuff I put out comparing my PN-40 to my Dakota. I called them as I see um there, pro's and cons alike. Unlike many here, I bought, payed for out of pocket, and have available to me mulitple different units. If I thought the PN-40 was that great, it's the one I would grab when I head out the door. As it is, I haven't given it away, but I prefer different units in most situations. Unlike many, if asked, I'll post examples where measureable showing what I see, why that which bothers me does so. For the most part, I don't even try to get into the "Which should I buy" discussions, except when I start seeing what I consider wildly exaggerated stuff, which from what I've observed tends to occur more with the PN-40 than most other units, which isn't really fair for those with limited budgets looking to get the unit that will work best for them in the sort of conditions they'll use it in. For those with exceptionally strong opinions on any specific unit. Do you actually have, own and compare side by side? What sorts of maps and mapping software do you have, and how do you use your map? How much do you travel, and in what sorts of areas? To give good advice, you've got to understand the differences in how terrain, vegetation etc. cause variation in behavior, and how maps vary in quality by region, topography etc.

Ah, so there are higher cap duracells. I've got some green band on top eveready batteries with that sort of capacity, but they drop off fast if they are more than a couple days out of the charger. Because of that I tend to not use them as much. As for putting the GPS units through a workout, I wouldn't have it any other way. You've got to play hard with all of the toys. Why would you need a handheld GPS if you're not going to get out and play? Now if the parts for My Polaris RZR get here thursday as promised, I'll give the units some serious track logging opportunities.

There are some slight differences sometimes in the routes the Garmin Handhelds take vs the NUVI's, but I agree, the basic routing is quite good, and the CN, or CN data on the 24k topos is probably the best overall quality road maps in the US right now. My Vista however is older than yours, and doesn't have expandable memory, so I'm quite limited in how much area you can load into it. That's the main reason I ended up upgrading this time around. For hiking, or road navigation I actually like my Vista better than my PN-40, but not as much as the Dakota. The Vista isn't as sweet for geocaching though if that's what I'm up to that day. There still is lots of room for improvement in making a One size fits all unit. I want the voice, traffic data, and all the other goodies of the nuvi combined with the functions and small handheld dakota package.

I used to make this suggestion, also. However, now that the Hi Res City 133 and the Color Aerial Photo Imagery is available for the DeLorme models, I have come to prefer to use that for my geocaching. Unfortunately, that is one characteristic that I don't expect that one could check out in a store. It's sad, but it's become quite difficult to get any good advice or help in a store anymore. When I purchased my PN-40, I initially drove to REI, which is about 30 miles from me, only to find the clerk had no knowledge of the PN-40, and couldn't be bothered to change out the dead batteries in the unit so I could actually fire it up and try it out. I ended up saying ..... with them and ordered over the internet being as how I didn't want to drive another 20 miles to Cabelas, the only other store in this area that carries the Delormes. Fortunately, when I decided to get the Dakota, the "Different" REI clerk was much better, albiet not at all familiar with the unit other than it was new and looked a lot like the Oregon.

Actually, it is possible. Depends on the usage profile (power saving mode or not) and the quality of the batteries (how drained can they be before the voltage collapses). Per DeLorme's manual for the PN-30/40, power draw without the SD card can be anywhere from under 350 mW in power saving mode, up to 690 mW with full backlight. Take a pair of 1.2v nominal NiMH batteries of 2100mAh each, that's 5040mWh... 5040/350 = 14.4 hours 5040/690 = 7.3 hours Of course, you won't get those maximums because the voltage will drop below an acceptable level for the PN before the batteries are completely flat. But 10 hours is not impossible in power-saving mode, or with some stingy power management techniques -- like actually turning the thing off once in a while ("we stopped for lunch...") but counting that time in your totals. And... there are NiMH batteries with higher capacities than 2100. Given that some people PROUDLY claim to be technically illiterate, it's also possible y'all aren't even talking about the same kinds of batteries. Actually, we could be speaking about different batteries. The ones I've been using are the low self discharge duracells, that are 2000 mah rather than the 2100 I thought they were when I posted earlier. That said, I'm not aware of any higher capacity Duracell rechargables in the AA format. I haven't ever run a capacity check on the Duracells, other than what the La Crosse gives, but I checked out some Eneloops a couple years back and they run more like 4600 mWh using a 1 volt cutoff. I could hook up to the delorme, measure actual current to see if it lines up with the numbers you posted, and figure out what the cutoff voltage really is, but there isn't any point to it really. It's easy to log the real world run time with GPS units while in the field. Simply clear the track, power down, insert new batteries, go until the unit dies, download the track and see how long it ran. Using the low discharge batteries I've been pretty consistant at between 5 and 7 hours in the field, an hour so longer when I was just recording stationary tracks to see how much the unit wandered.