SG-MIN

My take on it is that there is no unmanaged land. Private property is managed by someone to protect the owner's interests. Public lands are managed by someone to protect the public's interest. Infrastructure, such as stop signs and telephone switch boxes, are owned and managed and have rules regarding what can and can't be done with or to them. Therefore, everywhere you might want to place a cache is managed and owned by someone. That we 'own' and therefore can do as we like on public lands is simply not true. All Americans 'own' the National Parks, but we can't place caches there. All Alabamians 'own' our state parks, but we can't litter or shoot the animals there. Somebody sets the land use rules regardless of who owns it. So now comes geocaching, a game where we all want to go place cache hides. Do we seek permission for our hides? The Groundspeak guidelines indicate that we must, if they are to be listed on geocaching.com. Do we do that? In large part, no. Do we check the boxes that tell our Reviewers we have permission when we don't? Yep, with the vast majority of our listings. Is it silly that some forums posters get all het up about following the rules they want to enforce on others while ignoring this one? Yeah, it's a riot! I would venture to say you are walking a hard line there. If I take everything you just wrote to its logical end, what you are petitioning for is the EXPLICIT permission, whether written or verbal, for every cache hidden. Now, where I agreed with your presumptions on most issues, I cannot go this far with you. I agree that all land is managed by someone, but does that mean that explicit permission is required for each cache? I don't think anyone want to take this arguement to its logical ends - the logistical mess that would ensue would be catestropic to our community.

You're calling bumper sticker material "removable"? Calling that removable is like calling paint or permanent marker "removable". Sure, you could technically remove it... scraping for a while with a blade or using chemicals... but it's not anywhere near as temporary or truly removable as a magnet. So no, if it were me, I definitely wouldn't equate the two. On metal it is as easy to remove as a magnet - I had to test it in order to make sure it would be weatherproof. With my (a guy's) fingernails, it is easily removed. Trust me on this one.

to answer again quickly... If my perception is wrong, I wish to be corrected - that is why I am even discussing this topic in the forum.

hey, I don't want to play along. Niavity is bliss - I would rather play dumb. Lets see how I could weasel myself out of this. Me personally, I would see a guardrail as being implied concent in most cases. Of course, since I am new to this, I would trust my reviewer to point out any inconsistancies. The one cache I have placed, I was asked if it was on private property (and I appreciated the heads up question) to which I responded it was a public park. Since I was never asked to provide explicit permission, I assumed that a public park constituted implied concent.

There seems to be something a bit contradictory about this: "On another note do the "proper authorities" really want to be notified of every cache? Can you imagine how many times the road department would be called if everyone had to call for permission, and then have the reviewer call as well? Of course, I still agree that they should be contacted for permission." Are you recommending that everyone get proper permissions at all times or not? Personally I do not have any guard rail caches - but it begs the questions of implied concent. At what point is "explicit" permission needed. I belive this is where AlabamaRambler is getting upset. To answer your question, PROPER permission is always needed.

Oh I had no interest in getting the low down. If I am not caching, it seems like it is much more uplifting to browse area caches I plan on getting then getting bogged down in the semantics and personalities of the forums. I bit on this thread because as a new cacher, I am honestly interested in the preservation of the sport, and the intergrity of the search. As such, my first comment stands.

apparantly as a newbie to the forums, I am missing some info on previous dramas. What a shame.

I am not a reviewer, nor do I envy their work. I fully agree with you on the need for appropriate permissions to be obtained, but "ensuring" that seems like a monumental task aside from the honor systems. Even if there were a persmissions contact area, how could a reviewer know that contact information was authentic and not just the cache placer's cell number. On another note do the "proper authorities" really want to be notified of every cache? Can you imagine how many times the road department would be called if everyone had to call for permission, and then have the reviewer call as well? Of course, I still agree that they should be contacted for permission. The ones that are obviously over the line and in need of permission are "business caches" whether they are the cracker barrel caches, or the dreaded wally-world caches. If I were a business owner I could deffinetly want to know of a cache on my property. Those would also be easier to follow up. "clink" "clink" - there's my 2 cents.

I recently have had sucess using kitchen storage containers with gaskets. I am talking about the ones your mom uses to store the flour in. They come in a varity of sizes and materials, and have the cam latch that tightens down on the gasket keeping the contents secure. These are easy to work with and offer many options. You can also lock them if needed.

Here is what Webster says defacing is: 1 : to mar the external appearance of : injure by effacing significant details <deface an inscription> 2 : IMPAIR 3 obsolete : DESTROY In the case of a small sticker on the back of a stop sign I do not see how any of these imply. There would not be any altering of the sign.

You all are taking about the magnet. Legally, I don't see the differance between a sticker, a magnet, or for that matter any of the thousands of micros that are inherently visible to the public. If visability is the crux of the problem, we are all in trouble.

the sticker is made from bumper sticker material that I picked up at a sign store. It is a small sticker located on the bottom of the sign next to the post. It is at a T in the road, so the only people would could see it would be someone who for one reason or the other would be walking next to it. It is located in a very desolate area of the county. The only information on it is: 3609756 08612348 GCW78K The casual observer would have no idea what this meant, but a geocacher would know what to do. By the way, all the number above are made up.

I did forward the email. Either way, the reviewers need to be on the same page.

There are several options I COULD utilize - I am curious, if the method I used is legal.

Perhaps I should not bring this up yet because my cache is still being reviewed, but I really wanted your opinions. Is putting a removable sticker on a the back of a stop sign considered: "deface(ing) public or private property, whether a natural or man-made object, in order to provide a clue or a logging method" I originally had the idea for a stage in a cache that took people to a remote stop sign (it fits the theme of the cache - trust me on this one). I emailed one of the reviewers who had published my previous cache to ask if I could write with a sharpie the coordinates of the next stage. I received an email back stating that according to this website writing on the sign constituted vandalism, but that a sticker would be okay. Upon submission of my cache, which is quite complex and detailed, the new reviewer refused to publish the cache because to him/her the sticker constituted vadalism. I recognize there are several other options I could use, but because of the nature and theme of the cache, a small (2" x 3") sticker is the ideal medium. What are your thoughts? Is a removeable sticker on the back of a stop sign defacing property?

If you are not a premium member, you may use this trick: I find a zip code for a city (www.usps.gov) I will be driving past and then search based on that zip code. I then just select the waypoints in the directions the road travels and save them as a *.loc file. In other words, I-80 runs east west so I find a city on I-80 and only download waypoints that are listed as being east and west.

How do you all know a geocacher's ranking?