Fish Eagle

YAY from me. I applaud the effort currently being made, and despite our low cacher numbers, I firmly believe that it can happen, and will be wonderful for caching in SA. The formalities that are necessary to make it happen are, well - necessary, but specifically for the MEGA purpose, and mustn't be taken "kop toe" either by the people directly involved, or those who perceive such formalities as a threat. Edit to add - no matter where in the country it is, we'll be there!!

Hey Neil, I don't question your bona-fides or passion for the game at all. I have the greatest respect for you. I think we've both been around the block a few times, and understand that we can disagree vehemently about something without losing respect for each other. If I appeared to be "playing the man" instead of "playing the ball" - I apologise, that wasn't my intention.

Or, the third choice, which for me is the obvious one..... To accept that geocaching should be a non-competitive pastime, and not try to make a life-and-death competition out of it. Every time a coconut - whenever there's any stress within the geocaching community, it's to do with being competitive. If you have a passion to compete with someone else, then go orienteering, or trail running, or play golf, or any other of the myriad highly competitive sports which were designed to be competitive, and have extensive rulebooks which makes them competition compatible. Try to compete at anything which doesn't have very specific and enforcable rules, and you'll have a disaster.....and that, in my opinion, is exactly what's happening here. Wonder what would happen if we turned game viewing in the Kruger Park into a big competition, and awarded silly badges for rushing around as fast as we can trying to do more, bigger or better than the next game viewer.....?? Wonder how the authorities and other park visitors would like that...?? Again, I say NAY to powertrails, and I also say NAY to the silly badges and anything else that promotes competition between geocachers. Edited to add: Why am I so passionate about opposing this drivel...?? Because I've invested a lot of time, effort, and love for the game into the growth of geocaching in SA, and it breaks my heart to think that newbies will see this as the premier example of how the game works. Maybe I should move to the Western Cape. They've got it all figured out right - the shipwreck series, and the Simonsberg/Swartkop series are in my opinion perfect examples of powertrails.

I'm glad to see they're keeping the Finds & Challenges Completed count separate. Hmmm, lessee how this works... Any challenges in Gauteng yet? I am thinking of creating one... Now where is that thing called a GPS..? It seems that we cannot publish challenges in South Africa? Or am I just missing something? Works fine in SA. I just published a challenge in Nelspruit. Search on "Nelspruit, South Africa" and you should see it.

NAY Utter drivel, and in my opinion, the only issue that winds me up with enough emotion to get me banned from this Forum..... which might still happen. But, this ridiculous power-trail is within the guidelines, so I have to respect that it is "legal" and "the will of the people", and the "will of the people" will always prevail despite those who don't like it. Fortunately, I can play the game how I want to, totally independant to anyone else, and nobody other than Groundspeak will tell me how to play it, not GoSA, nor power-trail creators, nor any other self-appointed, opionated authority (but I do respect their bona-fides in doing what they are trying to which comes from a passion for the game). Being an optomistic sort of person (normally), I hope for some good to come from this current wave of "whatever" is happening now, but I have my doubts. It's the same path every "bigger" geo-country has walked already as part of their evolution. Some players love it, some hate it. In case you're unsure (LOL), I'm part of the "hate it" contingent. I liked it back in the good old days when a smiley had some real value, and if you have more smileys than fond memories, then you're playing the game backwards.... (a quote from a wise old-school player - you know who you are). My own personal viewpoint, as mentioned in another thread - I'll try to look for some "good" and "fun" in this ridiculous power-trail next time we're in Gauteng - maybe, but no big deal either way. I think that it could be fun trying to walk the western trail in two days - which for me, at 30 kms a day and many caches to take time logging, could make it a memorable challenge. But, I need to look at the route first - does it have any allure at all or will it just be a two-day walk along an uninteresting Gauteng road? Being out in the country, it might be nice, and could be fun to walk it with some good mates, but I'm not convinced yet.... Stop/start driving every 200m to log an inane micro - you gotta be dadgum joking unless someone can enlighten me about what's fun about that. "Dadgum" used intentionally knowing that the Forum software would change what I wanted to write to "dadgum" anyway. My greatest respect to the current Groundspeak volunteers. I'm very pleased that I've "been there, and done that" before this happened.....

I received a new shipment today of 20 coins which will be made available along with other sundry geocaching hardward at the QS #7 - Jhb - Mushroom Fun event tomorow. Please put one aside for me. If you can get it to RedGlobe, we'll be seeing them in Sept. Let me have your banking details and the amount, and I'll use the magical electronic thingy to get the bucks to you yesterday.

Oh no, it looks like your geocaching days are over - so sad!! Sorry I can't help. My tech skills are about 20 years past their sell-by date. I hope you come right....

If you think the stock market crashed over the past few years, you ain't seen nothing yet.... The value of an SA geo-smiley has just hit rock bottom. Luckily that doesn't affect my retirement planning, or the enjoyment I get from the game, so I'm not fussed about it at all. If it floats your boat, go for it. If it doesn't, ignore it. Whatever.... I must admit that I've been scheming how to fit these powertrails into my framework of having geo-fun (which isn't stop-start motoring), so I've already semi-planned on trying to walk the western trail in 2 days sometime in November, and maybe staying/camping over at Brookwood Trout Farm which sounds quite nice. If you're interested, send me an email and let's talk.

Hey Rolf, CONGRATS and ENJOY..!!

My shipment arrived this morning and I collected it from the post office en route to the "QS #5 - Jhb - Picnic while Harvesting Gold" event. They are stunning coins, simple and ideal to pop in a micro. The down side is that all ten went like hotcakes and I have none left available for sale. They are indeed a worthwhile investment if you enjoy geocoins. Obviously Coins and Pins aka Geoswag did not consider the number of cachers worldwide and in South Africa who would want to own a SA Flag micro coin because they are all sold out. I do hope they make some more. Encore, Encore! I was fast asleep, and missed out on this coin - boo-hoo. If they do another run, please let me know.

Thanks cownchicken. Actually, I've completely retired from cache reviewing, relinquished my superpowers, and am now fully focused on trying to find the elusive things again!!

Sounds great! We'll help you host it...... We can have our own geocaching thing at a great place such as this, plus we'll make the journey to the venue worthwhile with a cache or two or more to find! It sounds like a great idea, but, as Worm said, I suspect that your chances of getting such an event published are very slim. I suggest that you talk to ROTSIP before you proceed any further.

Bingo...where's the "like" button?? I have such fond memories of the voyage of discovery Lindy & I had years ago when we discovered this wonderful game. If someone had jumped in then with a heavy hand, and said you shouldn't log TFTC, or you can't do this, or can't do that, I wonder whether we would still have been geocachers today....? So, my belief is - even if it isn't quite what you want as an experienced player, let newbies enjoy discovering the breadth and depth of the game with as little interference as possible. Newbies should be nurtured. If they only log TFTC - so what. One day when they own their own caches, they'll work out how the back-and-forth flow of pleasure works, and the light will come on..... and they'll still be geocachers, and they'll be reinforced by that "discovery" experience. My 2c worth...

Challenge caches - yep, they are allowed under certain circumstances as far as I know, but I've retired from reviewing and I don't keep up to date with guidelines changes, so you should direct your enquiry to ROTSIP for more info.

Interesting example above - and I agree with you about that because it's a "WRITTEN RULE". Groundspeak has provided a rule/guideline on geocaching.com regarding how to rate terrain/difficulty, and I support guiding and assisting newbies to conform with Groundspeak's written rules. The problem I have is with unwritten rules. Maybe the easiest way to clarify my viewpoint is whether one can provide a link to the "rule" somewhere on the geocaching.com website. If you can, then it's a written rule, and guidance to newbies could/should be provided. If you can't provide a link, then it's an unwritten rule, and off-limits IMO. Here's the link for your 3* terrain example above..... Link Here's the 3 examples mentioned a few posts ago.... I'm not aware of anywhere on geocaching.com that these items are mentioned. Can anyone provide links...??

Andy, i am not taking issue with you I think the topic was incorrectly named right at the beginning - It should have been called "Caching Etiquette" I think SS was trying to establish what sort of etiquette is followed when caching (within the rules made by GS). e.g. Wait for the FTF to log first. "Cut & Paste" logs are not nice, neither is a plain "TFTC" Never relocate a cache without speaking to the owner first and so on ... Some posts have tended to get a bit personal, but then that is one of the hazards of an open forum Maybe we should concentrate on that, and not on rules which don't exist. PT Phew - ummmm, nope, with the greatest respect - I don't agree... The "etiquette" that you're trying to dictate to others is "unwritten rules", and that's exactly the point I'm trying to make. If the "etiquette" isn't a Groundspeak rule, then please don't try to force others to do what you want them to do..... Nobody has the right to do that.

I don't understand what gives anybody the right to think that they can make "unwritten rules"? Groundspeak, and only Groundspeak owns this wonderful game, and they make the rules - the written rules, which are the only rules. And they've made as few rules as have been absolutely necessary to limit obvious abuse of the game and their website. Their intention for the game is, and has always been non-competitive, so please don't try to manipulate the game into a competitive "something" that suits your personal tastes. If the rule you want to see isn't formally written somewhere on geocaching.com, then there is no rule, and you have no right to try to impose it on anyone else - QED. Fit in, or go elsewhere. As an example - there are no rules about FTF whatsoever. If you can find any FTF rules on geocaching.com I'd like to see them. So don't try to create rules for FTFs - there aren't any. C'mon - lighten up, it's a game, not a fight for survival. As mentioned earlier by someone else, I shudder to think what a newby will think when reading this thread - probably run for cover...... what a pity.

If I understand you correctly - you can only "deface" something (like knocking nails into a tree) if you have specific permission from the landowner for your cache, and your hiding method. If it's at a location that you don't believe requires permission, then you must stick to the guidelines. Note that the guidelines say "By submitting a cache listing, you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location." You, with your local knowledge need to be the responsible judge of what you think "adequate permission" is, and that could range from formal written permission to no permission.

The guidelines are very clear about ignoring no tresspassing signs. Such caches are not appropriate, and need to be dealt with urgently. Please either log a "Needs Archived" log, or report it to a reviewer.

I'll try to explain the guideline interpretation. If you take something from your home (eg: a rock, a dead branch, a piece of driftwood, etc) and hollow it out in your workshop for a cache, then go and place that somewhere - that's normally OK because you're not defacing someone else's property. You're leaving something of yours there which can easily be removed and leave no trace behind, and no damage is being caused to anyone else's property, provided it doesn't fall foul of littering, tresspassing, etc, and has permission for placement when necessary. Now, let's get ridiculous, but it could be a good illustration.... If you take your portable drill to the cache location, drill a hole in a rock, and place a cache in the hole, that's not OK, it's defacement. If you pick up a rock somewhere else, take it home, drill it and fit a cache, then drop it off at your cache location, then that's normally OK.

....continued These are the main guidelines violations which I encountered..... 1. Defacement. The guidelines say "Caches that deface public or private property, whether a natural or man-made object, in order to provide a hiding place, a clue or a logging method." This means that you may not damage trees or structures in any manner to create a cache hide. The most common violation that I found was holes drilled in trees and fenceposts, etc. You may not drill holes to create hides. Size of the hole is irrelevant - a hole is a hole, and a tiny hole is as illegal as a big hole. The only concession that Groundspeak allows is with tiny tacks and nails in trees (like firetacks for a night cache), provided that they do not penetrate the bark. If anything penetrates the bark, it's not appropriate. General rule of thumb regarding defacement - if you can remove your cache within a few minutes, and leave no trace behind, then it should be OK. However, permission overrides this guideline. If you have explicit permission from the owner of the tree or structure for your hiding method, then it's OK, but..... the cache listing must contain wording like the following to discourage others from doing the same without proper permission. Sample wording:- "This cache placement was made with express permission from the land owner." 2. Buried caches. The guidelines say "Caches that are buried. If a shovel, trowel or other "pointy" object is used to dig, whether in order to hide or to find the cache, then it is not appropriate." This means: A cache above ground, hidden in a pile of leaves, sticks, rocks or whatever is "covered" not buried. Below ground if you have to use anything but your fingers to make the hole or expand an existing hole or if you have to use anything but your fingers to add material that shores up the hole it is buried. The amount that is below ground doesn't matter if you had to make the hole with anything but your hands. If you dig 6 inches down to set a 5 gallon bucket in the ground with anything but your fingers it's buried. If it is an existing depression or hole in the ground that you do not have to expand with anything but your fingers and do not have to use anything but your fingers to add material (and only used your fingers to cut/shape/ or connect the material) to strengthen the hole then it is allowed. Caches hidden on beaches or sand dunes may be lightly covered with sand. For both of the above, I'll be disabling cache listings with violations of this nature, and the cache owner will have 3 options: A. If the hide method has express permission from the owner, then the above suggested wording must be added to the listing, and the cache may be re-enabled. B. If the hide method does not have permission, then the cache owner may seek permission, and if obtained then add the above wording to the listing, and the cache may be re-enabled. C. If permission cannot be obtained, then the cache must be removed and the damage repaired as best as possible. If a "legal" hide can be made nearby then the listing may continue (with a co-ords change), otherwise it will be archived. 3. Roadside memorials. The guidelines say "Be respectful when considering cache and waypoint placements in areas which are highly sensitive to the extra traffic that would be caused by vehicles and humans (examples may include archaeological or historic sites or cemeteries)". As reviewers, we generally don't allow caches on, or close to graves or memorials, so that enthusiastic searchers are not disrespectful to such sensitive locations. Typically, a minimum of 5 metres away is appropriate, or sometimes less if the listing makes it clear that the cache is not on the gravesite. I have taken advice from Groundspeak on this subject, and they would rather not see caches on, or close to road death memorials, as they are not respectful of the dead, could be promoting an agenda, and don't conform to the "light, fun activity" which is what geocaching should be. I'll be disabling such cache listings, and once the cache has been moved a respectful distance away from the memorial and the co-ords, listing and hint updated, then it'll be re-reviewed and re-enabled if it complies. Some people will hate me for what I'm doing, but I'd rather have that, than have geocaching outlawed by major land-owners and know that I should have done something when I could and I didn't..... Andy Geocaching.com Volunteer Reviewer

I've just got back home after a wonderful geocaching trip around the country. We had a ball hunting a variety of caches from the very easiest to the most challenging, and must thank and compliment the cache hiders for the standard of caches that we found, and the great entertainment provided. However, there was one downside. I came across an abnormal incidence of illegal hide methods, especially in two cities. As a reviewer, I can (and sometimes do) turn a blind eye to the occasional less significant guidelines violations that I come across when playing the game. But, the extent of what I saw, the amount of "monkey-see, monkey-do" emulation that's already happened, and the risk of further proliferation of these bad habits has forced me to do something about it. I've taken advice from Groundspeak, and they've confirmed that these bad practices need to be addressed, and must be nipped in the bud before they become generally accepted as OK. Sadly, it's my duty to do that... The guidelines for the game have evolved over several years, in more cache-dense countries than SA, and in all cases, the guidelines have arisen from experience and hard-learnt lessons. We're fortunate in SA that we do not have to pay the "school fees" that those pioneering countries have paid, and we already have a set of guidelines to help us achieve balance and sustainability of the game in the long term. You may be asking "Hey, what's the big deal?". Well, it isn't a big deal until major landowners start banning geocaching on their lands, then suddenly it'll be a big deal, and it'll be too late. Remember what happened with the Kruger Park. The guidelines are all about respect for landowners and the environment, and ensuring the sustainability of our sport in a non-intrusive and environmentally friendly manner. In my next post (below), I'll deal with the specific guidelines violations that I found, but I have one last general comment..... As disappointed as I was to find many illegal hides, I'm even more disappointed with the total apathy of the so-called "responsible" SA geocaching community. Nobody seems to care... Everyone hunts these caches, enjoys them thoroughly (obviously - being illegal they're unique, different, and great fun), writes complimentary logs about what great hides they are, knows that they are obvious guidelines violations, and does absolutely nothing about it - very sad!! I urge you to take responsibility and report guidelines violations - either publically using a "needs archived" log, or by private email to a reviewer if you wish to remain anonymous. How would you feel if (eg) all municipalities in a province / the country outlawed geocaching on all their lands? And you stood back, and allowed that to happen? continued.....

Thanks for your kind wishes, and thanks for creating great caches which provided us with such marvellous entertainment in East London. Our 2,000th milestone cache, your Bat's Cave cache is one of the best in the country!! Thank you.

IMO, yes.A good-sized container with cool content, at the end of a long tough hike is a special cherry on top. A micro in that circumstance would be a big let-down. As the owner of many travellers, I have no problem with my travellers "getting stuck" in special remote caches. So, sorry to disagree, but I think micros in remote places are a horrible idea.... But, that's my personal opinion.

After our last gorge hike, where I took some strain, and had a bit of a fall - I said "never again, I'm getting too old for this..." But, that gorge is like a drug, so I'm in, especially for a wet one - whoopee!! I'm guessing this will be about the ninth time for me...?? Here's a link to a writeup from three years ago, and the pics on this log should give an idea of what it's all about. Thanks GPS Storm for getting the ball rolling!!