Smokehouse
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Posts posted by Smokehouse
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Well let's see:
"I'm sorry you went to all the trouble to lookup Joshua Tree, and perform calculations, only to find that you had forgotten (or had not realized) that land usage is not at all evenly distributed (picture your house on the .3 acres of Mather Point at the Grand Canyon - your 1900 square mile 'yard' becomes moot )."
I think I said of course not all of it can be used by the public and I was using your example not mine.
"A bad citation and a poor use of math do not make you a bad person. Nor do they automatically invalidate your thoughts and feelings."
I was using your example and I think you will find my calculations are accurate although rounded.
"The point I was trying to make was that it does not matter how you interpret natural history, planetology, or the ecosystem. It does not matter what you feel. Nor does it matter what I think or feel."
So how does anyone know anything?
"Public land is managed, and the managers have rules. Respectful lip service and dutiful compliance generally means access can be negotiated. Vocal objections and defiance generally means that your activities have to move elsewhere."
Eveerything can be negotiated and I don't believe I advocated telling off a beuracrat/land manager. I just don't think there is a problem with questioning their premise. There is nothing wrong with vocal oblections and I don't break the rules, so I am not sure you inderstood or even read my posts at all. I just don't take what beuracrats tell me as gospel, so sorry if I think diffferently.
"Bucking the system will get you little support from the general public, and you will almost certainly find that the majority of cachers turn against you when it comes down to a choice concerning their access vs. your principles."
What system exactly was bucked. I think most people that do this hobby obviously do it because they like the outdoors and wouldn't do anything intentionally to hurt the ground, there are exceptions to everything, granted. Don't worry though, I'm not starting a movement.
"Getting worked up at me will not change this."
Not worked up, I just enjoy debate and hearing the other side, however wrong they may be.
"Relax, enjoy come caching. Litter a little or cut off trail if it makes you feel better, just don't get caught by the authorities if you want to keep caching on public land..."
Thats a good idea, I planned to place a cache this weekend and thanks to your suggestion, I think I am going to slash and burn a few acres to get rid of the ticks, they're bad down here, and then I have about a weeks worth of garbage that I need to dump, so I can't think of anything better, I may just toss it in the St. Johns.
"P.S. Don't worry, this thread has caused nothing beyond mild amusement at my end. I'm much to full of myself to let online rants get under my skin"
No worries, although not exactly a rant, I jsut enjoy debate, espically when the other side still hasn't refuted anything that I said other than what I say doesn't matter, I wish they were all that easy. Glad I am amusing you
The KGB
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"But of course, the logic (or not) of this, and how it relates to my point does not matter. No matter how vastly superior your logic, and no matter how mortally wounded I become from your rapier wit - the people who actually control the land use policies lean towards my way of thinking. And, have done so pretty consistantly despite pendulum shifts between left and right in US politics over the decades."
Rapier wit aside, I was using your example of 1,000,000 people at my house in one day. So ligic (or not) of this response was to your example of 1,000,000 people on my .5 acres here in Florida all in one day. I simply pointed out that the size of JT park was not all that small, sure a lot of that most would never see, but it is the park service and people that think the way you do, that force people to cram into a tiny area out of 800,000 acres. If you read my original post, I did state that common sense needed to be used. I love the environment just as much as you do, I do not believe that I pay for it so I should do whatever I please with it. If the land is there for us to enjoy, I would like to be able to enjoy it without someone in a big hat telling me that the destruction of the earth could result from my walking on it. You still didn't really refute any of my post other than making fun of it, so it still stands wounded pride or not. The earth has been here for billions of years, and while we have to take care of the environment, I don't think that people (we are animals too) can cause more damage to the environment that does mother nature.(forest fires, tornados, earthquakes, drought, mudslides, hurricanes, tsunamis, hail storms, hard freezes, heat waves, lightning, floods, the list goes on and on.)
"P.S. I am surprised that you bothered to research the park for your cutting analysis, but did not look more closely at the environment. Geologically speaking, JT may have had its rocky landscape formed a million years ago, but the fairly unique ecology, which supports all the plants that give it its name, is not nearly as old."
So the place has evolved over time and adapted to whatever changes have occured in that area, that's really interesting. I would imagine that the ground over there has changed over the billions of years the earth has been here, and from what you say, it continues to change and adapt, and was doing so long before man was here. That is really fascinating, do we know what may have been growing there millions of years ago, before man arrived, or has it always been Joshua trees? I would be willing to bet that over a few billion years, there may have been all kinds of things living there and growing there. Seems kind of like a cycle, but what do I know, you were shocked that I even knew anything about it.
"And, this is the part that is hard for some to swallow, there will be no grassroots uprising against the tryranny of banning geocaching. The vast majority of your fellow citizens will care no more about your right to play hide-and-seek for Happy Meal toys than they cared about my right to claw up many unique rock formations all over the country."
I sure hope you dodn't hammer any spikes into the rocks, and I hope you didn't drive to the climb or hike through the woods to get there.
I am sorry if I wounded you or hurt your feelings, but your opinion on this is no less relevant than mine. So you can throw away my argument if you'd like, but I have the history of the earth and all the natural destruction that has occured over billions on years, that tell me that it's not as fragile as the extreme environmentalist would lead you to believe.
Thanks in advance for your maturity.
PS thanks for proving my point!
The KGB
[This message was edited by The KGB on April 24, 2002 at 09:05 PM.]
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jfitzpat you mentioned the Joshua Tree National park, here is some info I found from their website:
"Joshua Tree National Park is immense, nearly 800,000 acres, and infinitely variable. It can seem unwelcoming, even brutal during the heat of summer when, in fact, it is delicate and extremely fragile. This is a land shaped by sudden torrents of rain, strong winds, and climatic extremes. Rainfall is sparse and unpredictable. Streambeds are usually dry and waterholes are few"
Now your example about 1,000,000 people coming over to my house, well thats is not a very good example. If I had 800,000 acres and 1,000,000 people all came over in one day, you could have 1 person on 0.8 acres of land and chances are you wouldn't run into that many people.
So if you had 800,000 acres and 1,000,000 came by your house in a years time, that would be 2,740 people everyday and in an 8 hour day it would be about 230 people an hour. Now 230 people on 800,000 acres everyday gives each one of those people 3478 acres all to themselves. That would be 5.43 square miles per person. I would imagine that most people visiting your 800,000 acre home would not walk all 5.43 sq miles.
So using your example, I would love to have 1,000,000 visitors to my 800,000 acre home espically if I can tax tehm to maintain it and then charge them to come over. Oh yeah, and whats with the weather they have there, seems pretty rough, and it's odd that after all these billions of years, its still there.
"But, as I indicated in the previous message just because a person can count does not mean that he/she will get it."
I just saw a post that made a lot of sense too. Why do we have to pay people to maintain the trails all year long if the environment is so fragile. It's because nature tries to reclaim the trail and the Park Service chainsaws it back down. That makes no sense?
Just my 2 cents
The KGB
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Thank you for understanding my post!
The KGB
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I am not one to start an argument but the lands DO belong to us. I don't see deer being taxed to the hilt to keep up their bedrooms and bathrooms. I for one am not one who believes that my walking on the ground is going to cause irreperable harm to the environment or vegitation. It's an interesting thing, the earth is pretty rugged. Billions of years of earthquakes, tornados, floods, volcanos, hail storms, meteor showers, forest fires....I just find it difficult to swallow that my walking on the dirt in a park is going to stop the earth on its axis and fall to pieces. We tend to think of history in a very limited view, when history includes all that time before man was created. the earth has been here for a long, long time and it is very tough. I am not proposing dumping your engine oil on the beach, you do need common sense. I really don't want to have to file forms with the state so that a federal employee somewhere, probably in a big city, can tell me that I can't place a box in the woods. have you seen all of the roads that the park service plowed through the parks, all of the inns, the benches the walkways etc...and miy sister is one of them. These are the same folks that will place hair from an endangered species in a park, to make people think that that area needs to be sealed off because some non-existent lynx has passed through. Everyone has an agenda.I do believe that most of the people in the Park Service love nature and the environment as do I, but things can be taken too far.
I know it is easy to read a post and not understand the tone of my thoughts, but this in no way is meant to be rude or argumentative, just a stream of thoughts.
PLEASE DON'T THINK OF THIS AS A FLAME, IT WAS NOT WRITTEN IN THAT FRAME OF MIND...
The KGB
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I know it doesnt have a map but if you know an address it will tell you the zip, sorry if you have already tried it.
The KGB
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I like to walk around in a tan trench coat with dark sunglasses on. I usually try and move in a very suspicious manner and when I actually see another human being, I freeze in the woods and throw a trash bag over myself.
The KGB
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I think that this needs to be stopped beofre it gets any worse. The point of this whole exercise is to use a GPSr to find a cache hinned somewhere in on the world. This is not the first time I have seen a cache like this that all you have to do is drive up to, there is no need for a gps or evan a compass. If this is the type of caches people want to do , maybe there should be a seperate site for them. I think some virtual caches are ok, but the ones that have nothing to do with GPS and don't even have you get out of your car are very far from where this site is and where it should go.
Your cache was way too commercial, I mean come on, take your picture in front of a Krispy Kreme. All anyone would have to do is look at your map and know right where to drive. I think maybe you should go through some of the caches on the site and get a feel for the purpose of geocaching.com.
DO YOU THINK THAT MAYBE THE INITIALS OF YOUR CACHE WOULD HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT.
Krispy Kreme Kache ?
The KGB
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"You are still welcome to Canada even if you dont like french."
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As much as I hate to admit it, my ancestors on my mothers side were French Huguenot and came to America in the early 1600's Charleston to be exact. I guess I am full of self loathing
"One minor correction here. There are only two states that actually have left the right to secede in their constitutions and that is Alaska and Texas."
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I knew about texas forgot about Alaska, but you are correct, I guess I should have said that all we would have to do is vote on it, but it is the right of every state written or unwritten.
The KGB
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"You are still welcome to Canada even if you dont like french."
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As much as I hate to admit it, my ancestors on my mothers side were French Huguenot and came to America in the early 1600's Charleston to be exact. I guess I am full of self loathing
"One minor correction here. There are only two states that actually have left the right to secede in their constitutions and that is Alaska and Texas."
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I knew about texas forgot about Alaska, but you are correct, I guess I should have said that all we would have to do is vote on it, but it is the right of every state written or unwritten.
The KGB
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hahahahah now that was funny!
I think I am just about done here and to my new canadian friends I say farewell and I will see you on other topics, I think its time to close this one down. I love America and you love Canada, nothing any of us say will change that. Long live Canada and Long live the United States!
The KGB
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"Our American cousins can keep anyone who wants to leave our fair land. As for medical procedures, instead you have to fight with your HMO to convince them to give you proceedures and some of the most important ones might not be covered by your insurance. The American President travels all the time."
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The American president is taken care of by the Navy so he doesnt have to travel, the doctor comes to him, if thats whay you meant.
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The average American family pays up to $1000/month for their HMO membership
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I don't know if this is true, I pay about $100/month and thats for a PPO which is better than an HMO, maybe you mean $1000/year sounds more like it, now it would be more if you had children and such, but $1000/month sounds awfully high.
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"our economy is relatively stronger and has been much less affected by events of late."
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I would say thats 50/50 and I'll let you guess which one I think is not accurate
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"I've wanted to point this out for a long time. The good ol U.S. Of A. doesn't have a name as much as it has a description. Canada is an excellent name for a country."
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That is true, back in the good old days
when asked where you were from, you would name your state as your country. I am from Florida so Fl would be my country, USA just means exactly what Rob said, just a description. Each state is like a soverign nation that has given up some of its rights to be part of the union and each state has the right to leave the Union.Now we have tried that little leave the union thing back in the 1860's and lost more people than all of the wars we have been in combined.
So it is true but I do believe that the United States of America is a great sounding name. I do think it would be interesting to see what would happen if say, North Carolina decided to leave the union, more interesting is really what that would mean as far as travel, taxes etc...
I think last year or so there was a state up north that was actually talking about it.
ps any of you folks up there in canada want to join us, just write us a memo and we'll hold a vote, it couldn't be that difficult
we'd love to have you, as long as your not french The KGB
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"Our American cousins can keep anyone who wants to leave our fair land. As for medical procedures, instead you have to fight with your HMO to convince them to give you proceedures and some of the most important ones might not be covered by your insurance. The American President travels all the time."
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The American president is taken care of by the Navy so he doesnt have to travel, the doctor comes to him, if thats whay you meant.
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The average American family pays up to $1000/month for their HMO membership
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I don't know if this is true, I pay about $100/month and thats for a PPO which is better than an HMO, maybe you mean $1000/year sounds more like it, now it would be more if you had children and such, but $1000/month sounds awfully high.
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"our economy is relatively stronger and has been much less affected by events of late."
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I would say thats 50/50 and I'll let you guess which one I think is not accurate
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"I've wanted to point this out for a long time. The good ol U.S. Of A. doesn't have a name as much as it has a description. Canada is an excellent name for a country."
_________________________________________________
That is true, back in the good old days
when asked where you were from, you would name your state as your country. I am from Florida so Fl would be my country, USA just means exactly what Rob said, just a description. Each state is like a soverign nation that has given up some of its rights to be part of the union and each state has the right to leave the Union.Now we have tried that little leave the union thing back in the 1860's and lost more people than all of the wars we have been in combined.
So it is true but I do believe that the United States of America is a great sounding name. I do think it would be interesting to see what would happen if say, North Carolina decided to leave the union, more interesting is really what that would mean as far as travel, taxes etc...
I think last year or so there was a state up north that was actually talking about it.
ps any of you folks up there in canada want to join us, just write us a memo and we'll hold a vote, it couldn't be that difficult
we'd love to have you, as long as your not french The KGB
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No offense but what in the hell are you talking about?
The KGB
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No offense but what in the hell are you talking about?
The KGB
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It will work in France but for some reason the GPS will begin to develop a really bad attitude, will probably point you in the wrong direction and will have a little smell to it. Other than that GOOD LUCK
The KGB
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It will work in France but for some reason the GPS will begin to develop a really bad attitude, will probably point you in the wrong direction and will have a little smell to it. Other than that GOOD LUCK
The KGB
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"I have been trapping sage grouse at night for the last three years. We trap the birds and put radio collars on them and leg bands"
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Why wouldn't you just leave the birds alone?
The KGB
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I love Tom Clancy, do you have the list of the order of the books, everything I have seen is by publication date, so I am not sure whichone came first etc.. I know Red October was the first book, but is that the very beginning of Jack Ryan?
Hard to believe Clancy was an insurance broker, before deciding to write A book. Some of the books can be a little tedious due to a lot of repeating of phrases and very wordy decriptions etc.. but they are well worth the read.
Wait till you get to "Sum of All Fears", there is a movie coming out on that one soon!
The KGB
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My initials are KGB and the logo is the old badge from the soviet Secret Police. It's funny because nowadays most people have no idea what it means, kinda sad really. But its just my initials, thats it...
The KGB
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Rob,
I totally agree with everything you just said. I know you and I have had some fun on this Canada / US thing, and it is all in fun, but this is serious and I am very sorry for the death of your soldiers, you are correct it does sound like the pilot freaked and it is my understanding that he asked permission to straffe with his machineguns and was denied, then it sounds like he thought he was being fired at again. I will admit I have never been in the military, although my family does have a long history of service, so I can't possibly imagine the stresses on of all the people involved, US, Canadian, whomever. I am sure they will have the full report soon, and hopefully all the questions will be answered and you can be assured that we will do the right thing for the families. I also read today that these are the first casualties that Canada has had in a combat zone since the Korean War, so I am sure that makes it more shocking. I do believe that the reason for the number of accidents is the amount of action our military sees. I, like you wish it were less, because I am tired of paying to police the world but it has to be done.I thought it was great that Canada was the first to step up to the plate. I remember seeing a memorial service they put together days after 9/11 and watching it on C-Span and it was amazing, and it certaintly made me feel better.
So I appreciate your last post here and it shows a lot of thoughtfulness in what you said.
Your American Friend,
The KGB
The KGB
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I think that you have to understand that because we are involved in the world and are called to have our troops everywhere that friendly fire accidents do happen as horrible as they are. If you climb a ladder 50 times a day for 10 years, you are going to fall off that ladder more than someone who climbs a ladder 1 time every year. As horrible as it is to say, accidents do happen, and when you are dealing with explosives and live ammunition it gets even more dangerous. I am sorry for your loss, I am sure it is the same way I felt when I read your original posts in this forum giving the US a "gentle ribbing" about all of our soldiers that were killed by friendly fire, this is what you wrote:
"Friendly Fire, AIN'T!
You may not know this but your Armed Forces are know world wide for having more casualties BEFORE the war starts from accidents and more casualties during the war from friendly fire then enemy fire."
"It definatly was not ment as an insult! More a gentle ribbing! As for your comments about the US being there for us... I'm afraid that the ONLY country we are worried about invading us IS the U.S.!!!
"Now I know you were just having fun with this when our soldiers were killed and I woun't do the same to you, because it isn't really funny or worth a "gentle ribbing", and because we don't know the details of what happened, you may want to hold back some of that anger until you know what caused the accident. I can assure you with 100% accuracy that it wasn't on purpose, I can't think of any reason why the US would want to kill Canadians, it just doesn't make sense, so it was obviously a mistake. This is not meant to be offensive either, I know it's not fun to see the news that your troops have been killed in a friendly fire accident, nor is it fun to read posts having someone poke fun at it.
I am sorry for your loss and it is my understanding that Bush called your PM instantly and offered whatever was needed and has told the military to comply fully with a Canadian investigation into what happened. I hope to know what happened soon, until then I am sorry for your loss, all "gentle ribbing" aside.
KGB
The KGB
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I think that you have to understand that because we are involved in the world and are called to have our troops everywhere that friendly fire accidents do happen as horrible as they are. If you climb a ladder 50 times a day for 10 years, you are going to fall off that ladder more than someone who climbs a ladder 1 time every year. As horrible as it is to say, accidents do happen, and when you are dealing with explosives and live ammunition it gets even more dangerous. I am sorry for your loss, I am sure it is the same way I felt when I read your original posts in this forum giving the US a "gentle ribbing" about all of our soldiers that were killed by friendly fire, this is what you wrote:
"Friendly Fire, AIN'T!
You may not know this but your Armed Forces are know world wide for having more casualties BEFORE the war starts from accidents and more casualties during the war from friendly fire then enemy fire."
"It definatly was not ment as an insult! More a gentle ribbing! As for your comments about the US being there for us... I'm afraid that the ONLY country we are worried about invading us IS the U.S.!!!
"Now I know you were just having fun with this when our soldiers were killed and I woun't do the same to you, because it isn't really funny or worth a "gentle ribbing", and because we don't know the details of what happened, you may want to hold back some of that anger until you know what caused the accident. I can assure you with 100% accuracy that it wasn't on purpose, I can't think of any reason why the US would want to kill Canadians, it just doesn't make sense, so it was obviously a mistake. This is not meant to be offensive either, I know it's not fun to see the news that your troops have been killed in a friendly fire accident, nor is it fun to read posts having someone poke fun at it.
I am sorry for your loss and it is my understanding that Bush called your PM instantly and offered whatever was needed and has told the military to comply fully with a Canadian investigation into what happened. I hope to know what happened soon, until then I am sorry for your loss, all "gentle ribbing" aside.
KGB
The KGB
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How about a piece of cardboard, and lets say a Star Wars action figure as the TB. on the cardboard you past tthe general instructions and seal them up using the cardboard as the backing. Then attached to that would be the more detailed instructions or something to that effect.
The KGB
Be careful where you place a cache, or they might be prohibited on all Parks
in General geocaching topics
Posted
Well let's see:
"I'm sorry you went to all the trouble to lookup Joshua Tree, and perform calculations, only to find that you had forgotten (or had not realized) that land usage is not at all evenly distributed (picture your house on the .3 acres of Mather Point at the Grand Canyon - your 1900 square mile 'yard' becomes moot )."
I think I said of course not all of it can be used by the public and I was using your example not mine.
"A bad citation and a poor use of math do not make you a bad person. Nor do they automatically invalidate your thoughts and feelings."
I was using your example and I think you will find my calculations are accurate although rounded.
"The point I was trying to make was that it does not matter how you interpret natural history, planetology, or the ecosystem. It does not matter what you feel. Nor does it matter what I think or feel."
So how does anyone know anything?
"Public land is managed, and the managers have rules. Respectful lip service and dutiful compliance generally means access can be negotiated. Vocal objections and defiance generally means that your activities have to move elsewhere."
Eveerything can be negotiated and I don't believe I advocated telling off a beuracrat/land manager. I just don't think there is a problem with questioning their premise. There is nothing wrong with vocal oblections and I don't break the rules, so I am not sure you inderstood or even read my posts at all. I just don't take what beuracrats tell me as gospel, so sorry if I think diffferently.
"Bucking the system will get you little support from the general public, and you will almost certainly find that the majority of cachers turn against you when it comes down to a choice concerning their access vs. your principles."
What system exactly was bucked. I think most people that do this hobby obviously do it because they like the outdoors and wouldn't do anything intentionally to hurt the ground, there are exceptions to everything, granted. Don't worry though, I'm not starting a movement.
"Getting worked up at me will not change this."
Not worked up, I just enjoy debate and hearing the other side, however wrong they may be.
"Relax, enjoy come caching. Litter a little or cut off trail if it makes you feel better, just don't get caught by the authorities if you want to keep caching on public land..."
Thats a good idea, I planned to place a cache this weekend and thanks to your suggestion, I think I am going to slash and burn a few acres to get rid of the ticks, they're bad down here, and then I have about a weeks worth of garbage that I need to dump, so I can't think of anything better, I may just toss it in the St. Johns.
"P.S. Don't worry, this thread has caused nothing beyond mild amusement at my end. I'm much to full of myself to let online rants get under my skin"
No worries, although not exactly a rant, I jsut enjoy debate, espically when the other side still hasn't refuted anything that I said other than what I say doesn't matter, I wish they were all that easy. Glad I am amusing you
The KGB