Roman!
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Posts posted by Roman!
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I've actually received a few messages in the last few days and like the message center for the most part but here is what I'd change:
I don't like not having the body of the message in the email and having to log in is just to reply is extra work.
Perhaps a choice of communication should be offered.
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I know there is no fine line on what constitutes a power trail but it would be nice if one could be established so that they could be separated from and not affect geocaches.
I think this is what is really lacking. If someone wants to throw a pill bottle out the window of a van every 160 yards on a utility road in the hinterlands, hooray for them, doesn't affect me.
It's when this behaviour starts being applied beyond "power trails" - and it does - that it becomes bothersome to cache owners and problematic for honest geocachers. If we could better differentiate between this variation of geocaching, which some people apparently enjoy, and original-style geocaching, there would be less conflict. It would validate those who seem to need the validation, and give the rest of us a clear way to differentiate our geocaches and our geocaching from that.
The first cache was a traditional and there was no PAF or previous log posts to help, are you saying all your finds are trads and you never used PAF or read previous logs for help.
Anything else is an evolution of geocaching, you see, you are not an honest geocacher either.
i do however agree that TCM should not be applied beyond obvious power trails and would not be impressed with anyone who did.
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Somebody decides to open a road in the park besides your pool because it's a good shortcut. More people start to use it. Unfortunately, it's a dirt trail and dust keep going into your pool.
You're asking them to pave it.
But their answer is that if you don't want to use it, you just have to ignore it.
I don't understand the analogy. What does your pool represent, and what does the dust getting into it represent? From my point of view, the better analogy would be a hiking trail up a mountain. You want to drive your car to the top, so you demand that the trail be paved. When people object, you call for the hiking trail to be closed to everyone.
The dust is effecting some people's "pool" of cache hides. One among many negative "dusty" effects, people are treating good quality caches, especially non-traditionals, like all that matters is they are useful for qualifying for a challenge cache - mass hunting for dozens in a day and sharing final coordinates to make the process quick and easy.
Except GS does not care about the dust in your pool, if they did then they'd archive all existing challenges, they're concerned about too much work for the inspectors that have to inspect the dirt roads.
As for mass hunting , like thats going to go away, its not about challenges, its about find count.
I don't even know how a challenge can create mass hunting, the xxx finds in a day are accomplished on PTs by most and they only need to do it once, most other challenges require caches spread out over distances.
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I've done hikes pushing 20 miles on many occasions most with major elevation gains of 2500-4000 feet to grab a cache.
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This thread was started as a shortcut to boost finds. I would have to agree that TCM goes against one of the basic principals of geocaching which is to sign the log and put it back in the cache. Remember virtual caches? As I remember they were grandfathered because of log issues. I'd sure disapprove if someone were to use the TCM approach on one of my 13 year old caches. Numbers have created a dark side to geocaching for some. Are numbers really that important? ...... Not for this player, that's all they are, just numbers.
From Geocaching 101, "How is the game played":
7.Sign the logbook and return the geocache to its original location.
I agree, those who run PTs using TCM and other various techniques to quickly increase find count are playing a game. This is all fine and well but they shouldn't be telling anyone that they are geocaching.
Yes, numbers have created a dark side.
That is a guidleline so new cachers don't take the container home or move it to a "better spot" both action which can result in DNFs for future cachers. On a power trail using TCM the cacher does pkace a container in the exact same spot so there is a cache for the next cacher to find.
What about the other steps? Are you cheating if you don't do them? You must be, hence we are all cheaters
Register for a free Basic Membership.
Visit the "Hide & Seek a Cache" page.
Enter your postal code and click "search."
Choose any geocache from the list and click on its name.
Enter the coordinates of the geocache into your GPS Device.
Use your GPS device to assist you in finding the hidden geocache.
Sign the logbook and return the geocache to its original location.
Share your geocaching stories and photos online.
There are many other levels to the game. Keep reading the guide to learn more!
Now read the last line that says keep reading the guide, it doesn't say rule book, the only rules are those where it states they are rules and even those seem to be negotiable.
Maybe there is a dark side to you, many others don't agree, I think puzzle caches are the dark side.
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Let's look at geocaching 101 some more:
I guess you're a lost cause or just don't want to see it. Never mind, have it your way.
Here's your choice:
Either a couple of lackeys cheated on thousands of caches or TCM is not cheating, I go with the latter.
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Let's look at geocaching 101 some more:
At its simplest level, geocaching requires these 8 steps:
Register for a free Basic Membership.
Visit the "Hide & Seek a Cache" page.
Enter your postal code and click "search."
Choose any geocache from the list and click on its name.
Enter the coordinates of the geocache into your GPS Device.
Use your GPS device to assist you in finding the hidden geocache.
Sign the logbook and return the geocache to its original location.
Share your geocaching stories and photos online.
There are many other levels to the game. Keep reading the guide to learn more!
1) you can register for a premium too but I guess you get basic first.
2) I found my first cache without ever visiting the hide and seek page, I used the app.
3) Never in 4 years have I entered my postal code.
4) na
5) I either use the app or upload the cache, rarely do I enter coordinates.
6) I've found caches without my GPS or any GPS.
7) I've stamped logbooks and have others sign for me and have moved caches.
8) I do not share stories and photos on every single cache I find.
If these were rules pretty much every cache I gave found or most anyone else has found would not be legitimate.
Now read the last line that says keep reading the guide, it doesn't say rule book, the only rules are those where it states they are rules and even those seem to be negotiable.
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Those are guidelines, and they have exceptions.
Look at
What kind of cache should I look for on my first adventure?
Cache Type: Traditional Traditional Cache Icon
Difficulty Rating: 1 Difficulty: 1 Star Icon
Cache Size: Regular or Large Regular Cache Size Icon Large Cache Size Icon
You should also check to see that other geocachers have recently logged finds on the cache page (also called the cache listing). This indicates that the geocache is most likely still in place and findable. Find logs are indicated on the cache page with a smiley face.
Does that mean every newbie has to check if other geocachers recently logged the cache and only search for a 1/1?
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Says who,
TPTB, GS, geocaching.com.. whatever you like to call them:
For newbies: (how is the game played)
5.Use your GPS device to assist you in finding the hidden geocache.
6.Sign the logbook and return the geocache to its original location.
Can I move cache once I find it?
Please do not move a cache from its original location. If you feel that the cache may not be located in the correct location, please email the cache owner directly or post a log on the cache listing page, notifying the owner of your concern. Cache owners are responsible for maintaining their cache placements.In case it's not clear you can use Google translate or any other translation website
Those are not the rules.
What are the rules of geocaching?
If you take something from the geocache (or "cache"), leave something of equal or greater value.
Write about your find in the cache logbook.
Log your experience at www.geocaching.com.
Again, geocaching is evolving, regardless of your opinion TCM is an acceptable tactic in general. Not moving a cache is a guidleline as most caches should not be moved but there are exceptions where it is or was ok such as moving caches.
Just look at no ALRs yet we have earthcaches and challenge caches, again, changes due to the evolution of the game.
EDIT: found another area of the site with rules, still no mention of not moving a cache:
1.5. Are there rules?
We like to keep things fun for everyone, so we have a few rules we encourage everyone to follow:
Sign both the logbook and log your find online to get your smiley. Geocache owners love reading about your experience.
If you take a trinket from the geocache, leave something family-friendly of equal or greater value. Avoid placing food or scented items as these attract animals.
Be mindful of non-geocaching onlookers. Curious people have been known to take or damage geocaches.
Make sure you don't accidentally venture on to someone's private property. Caches won't require you to trespass.
If you find a problematic cache, please contact the owner directly or contact us.
Leave the geocache area better than how you found it. Try not to disrupt local wildlife and pack out any trash you see.
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It also a practice that my conscience would never allow me to participate in. Then you make a video telling the newbies this is the way its done. Go for it. I'm not mad, I'm disappointed.
Same here. You're supposed to find a cache, sign the log and replace the cache, not find the cache, replace cache with presigned log and hide taken cache elsewhere.
A video showing a lackey doing this is setting a bad example for newbies who will copy this behavior as they think that this is the way it's supposed to be done. Well, it isn't.
Says who, things evolve, power trails are a part of that evolution and so is TCM, as thing evolve further the geocaching community will determine what is and is not acceptable. Can't wait to see what the oldtimers are complaining about 5 years from now.
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Good for you, I’m glad you enjoy geocaching after all, that’s what it’s all about. I have a suggestion for you, if you want to call yourself open-minded, you might want to change your signature line. It makes you sound pretty judgmental about how others choose to geocache.I geocache because I find it fun, I enjoy doing power trails, takes me to so pretty cool places, I also like hiking, I have many high terrain mountain top cache find, I've done bike trail, hike trails and just bought a kayak and done my first boat only cache.ive been to 32 states and 7 provinces since I started caching 4 years ago and I would not trade any of the experiences I've had, I appreciate them all. You see, I alway have and will continue to geocache for the journey as well but that's just one aspect of geocaching, numbers are another, I'm thankful I'm open minded enough to enjoy all the different aspects this game can offer.
How many times have you seen someone post it's not about the numbers? At least with my signature I don't have to respond.
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Complaining about cheating is cheating.
I tried to think of any other topic where this logic makes sense. I only found one.
This is true:
"Complaining about complaining is complaining."
Otherwise, your statement makes as much sense as:
"Complaining about Monday is Monday."
Austin
But complaining about Monday could be mundane.
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I'm sorry but I can't go along with the TCM approach, I think it waters down and cheapens the game.
It removes one of the basic precepts of the game which is, find a cache, sign the log and rehide for the next geocacher to find.
The way I see it, the CO cheapens the game by planting a series that's so repetitive that 3 cache monte is an acceptable approach. Given such a series, I don't see how cachers actually taking the CO up on the suggestion can cheapen the game even more.
Create an activity and you'll create competition, it's human nature, PTs are a natural evolution of the game, problem is most forum posters are long time members and they oppose the change.
Me, I like ol' time rock and roll, my kids think I'm square and a few choice other words, I really should get hip but I am one stubborn SOB, gives my kids a heck of a laugh.
Yes I am a long time player and oppose the idea of the TCM (at this point I’m not aware of any change being made). The demographics of the players have changed over the years with the introduction of the smartphone, which brought geocaching to the masses. In the early days of geocaching we had a relatively small group of players that shared many of the same interests and ideas about the game. A geocache was placed somewhere of interest which usually involved a hike. You would hand enter the coordinates into your GPS unit, print out a map and go look for it. Some of my favorite hiking spots I discovered because of geocaching. When you did find the cache, it was usually a good size ammo can with tradable goodies for the kids and a logbook you could sign and sit back and read about the other stories of previous visits. Geocaching was about the journey, not how many caches you can find in a day and what shortcuts can to use to bloat your find numbers. Playing PT’s you are probably so focused on numbers that you are missing out on the things going on around you. Driving down a highway and stopping every tenth of a mile to grab a film canister in a pile of rocks is not my idea of fun (or geocaching for that matter). I could do this without a GPS receiver. Now lets introduce the concept of TCM, which purpose is to save time and skip the process of signing the log at the cache site just so you can get to the next pile of rocks faster so that you can bump up your find totals. TCM is just another nail in the coffin to the roots of geocaching. It reminds me of when I was shopping in a store and saw they now have a monopoly game with a electronic bank and credit cards so you don’t have to even count your money any more, you got to be kidding me! Is it still monopoly? Yes, but not a version I would play with my children. To answer your signature line ” Show me someone that says it's not about the numbers and I'll show you someone that can't count”. 1…2…3…4…5…6…7…8…9…10. I always have and will continue to geocache for the journey.
I geocache because I find it fun, I enjoy doing power trails, takes me to so pretty cool places, I also like hiking, I have many high terrain mountain top cache find, I've done bike trail, hike trails and just bought a kayak and done my first boat only cache.ive been to 32 states and 7 provinces since I started caching 4 years ago and I would not trade any of the experiences I've had, I appreciate them all. You see, I alway have and will continue to geocache for the journey as well but that's just one aspect of geocaching, numbers are another, I'm thankful I'm open minded enough to enjoy all the different aspects this game can offer.
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This discussion seems to be missing some relevant points. Unless TCM is actionable by Groundspeak by removal of finds, it can't really be called "cheating". And Roman, if that's the way you want to geocache, go for it. You don't need to use a lackey for justification, which is really all you're doing here. Just play the way you want. I don't care for the method, and I'd never play that way, as it would feel cheesy and cheap to me, but that's my opinion applied to the way I geocache.
One of the best things about geocaching is being able to play the way you want. You like FTF's? Go for it! Trackables? Have fun! Only like full-size caches in parks? Great, there's a ton! Play the way you want, and don't worry about how other people play, and you won't have to worry about justifying something. If you use a technique in a gray area, then you should be prepared for a cache owner to object. In the end, in a disagreement, Groundspeak is the judge.
Power trails don't really interest me, as I don't care much about numbers. My favorite caches are always the unique, special, creative ones.
When I did my first power trail (Route 66) with my kids I signed every cache at GZ and returned it, later, on our way to Boise to do the Owyhee PT with friends we discussed the pros and cons of using TCM. Although the PT was a heck of a lot of fun the main purpose of a pt is finds and TCM just makes sense. There is a time and a place to use this tactic. I've done numerous and hike trails where TCM would not be acceptable. I feel most geocachers can distinguish when and where it is ok to use TCM and respect caches where it should not be used. There is a lot of ignorance on this forum towards PTs and TCM and seeing one the lackeys post a video of his group using the method on a pt where it is an accepted practice, ho could I not jump on the opportunity to point it out?
On a side note I'd consider PAF or asking anyone but the CO for help with a puzzle a lot closer to cheating than TCM ever is.
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I suspect it is more than "stupid cache submissions". Because the challenge cache hiders continue to push the envelope on challenge caches, both the reviewers and HQ are constantly having to re-evaluate the limits they have put in place. Most of that burden, of course, would fall on the shoulders of the volunteer reviewers, who get to deal with sometimes angry and/or impatient wannabe challenge owners. Then, perhaps, it gets taken to HQ for review. That will still take more time from the reviewers who now have to pass on to HQ what his/her thoughts were and explain anything that isn't clear from the message history. It is a moving target... herding cats... nailing jello to a wall.
That's pretty much what I had in mind when I used the term "stupid challenge caches": challenge caches aiming at stressing the limits to the breaking point.
While I was down on the idea of having challenge caches reviewed through a different channel like EarthCaches, perhaps what might make more sense is a way for reviewers to approve challenge caches that raise no issues, but automatically boot challenge caches that the reviewers feel are questionable immediately to a central review committee that has experience with the limits and with dealing with combative COs. They wouldn't be needed for most challenges, but they'd be the experts we need to handle the exceptional cases.
Actually I like your idea, if challenge cache submissions are so rare but create so many problems have a global challenge cache reviewer that can make consistant and unbiased descisions. If there is only one reviewer his/her descisions can be more easily accepted and result in less problems for the overworked staff at HQ.
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I'm sorry but I can't go along with the TCM approach, I think it waters down and cheapens the game.
It removes one of the basic precepts of the game which is, find a cache, sign the log and rehide for the next geocacher to find.
The way I see it, the CO cheapens the game by planting a series that's so repetitive that 3 cache monte is an acceptable approach. Given such a series, I don't see how cachers actually taking the CO up on the suggestion can cheapen the game even more.
Create an activity and you'll create competition, it's human nature, PTs are a natural evolution of the game, problem is most forum posters are long time members and they oppose the change.
Me, I like ol' time rock and roll, my kids think I'm square and a few choice other words, I really should get hip but I am one stubborn SOB, gives my kids a heck of a laugh.
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Trying to be positive I do like the fact that when I clicked on the message link within an earthcache page the message line came repopulated with: Regarding GC4G724: Lynn Canyon Park Earthcache –
This will make sending the required answers easier.
But it would be even easier if the link went to e-mail with the e-mail box similarly populated with an initial line identifying the cache. In fact, since e-mail is sent in HTML, the ID information could including a HTML link to the cache instead of just a name and number that then has to be used to look up the cache.
The only reason for this to be a link to messages instead of e-mail is to drive people to use the message center no matter how deficient it is as a communication mechanism.
Omg, yesterday I'm agreeing with cezanne, today I'm defending GS, my world has been turned upside down.
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I've already deleted the few that I've received, and conveyed my reasons to the senders for not participating in this new system, but if/when they continue I suspect I won't be the only one trying to automate an advice to message center users that I only respond to emails.
Can't we just have an opt in/out though (similar to blocking friend requests)? Failing that, couldn't you include the message content in the notification, and an email reply link?
So you don't like the change and decide to punish the finders of your cache?
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Trying to be positive I do like the fact that when I clicked on the message link within an earthcache page the message line came repopulated with: Regarding GC4G724: Lynn Canyon Park Earthcache –
This will make sending the required answers easier.
Don't know if it would be possible but if there was a way that the questions that needed answering were also prepopulated.
But of course if the CO does not pay attention to the message center because he has to log in to read it and deletes your log because you did not email him then it is not easier.
The message sent via the message center really needs to be part of the notifacation email sent to the recipient.
I do agree it would be nice if the email contained the body of the message and that it should but I can't see it being a problem of logs being deleted.
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Accidentally coming across an FTF opportunity when far away from our home state of Texas. It happened in Ontario two years ago. We were returning to our truck after signing a blank log when two local cachers pulled up. We chatted awhile, then parted ways. About an hour later, we encountered them again and ended up finding a few co-FTFs. This is one of the ways that keeps this hobby interesting.
Ha, I live in B.C. And while traveling through Texas I checked new caches from my hotel room and noticed a series of 6 new caches had just come out so woke up a bit earlier and picked up 6 FTFs before continuing on my journey. The first 5 were in the dark but when I got to the sixth the sun was jus comming up and I found myself on top of a hill with a stunning view. Very cool and unexpected.
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Trying to be positive I do like the fact that when I clicked on the message link within an earthcache page the message line came repopulated with: Regarding GC4G724: Lynn Canyon Park Earthcache –
This will make sending the required answers easier.
Don't know if it would be possible but if there was a way that the questions that needed answering were also prepopulated.
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I'm sorry but I can't go along with the TCM approach, I think it waters down and cheapens the game.
It removes one of the basic precepts of the game which is, find a cache, sign the log and rehide for the next geocacher to find.
If this were to become accepted practice then I would be able to go find your cache,(it could be any of you) sign the log and because I'm too busy or time is short or I'm too lazy. "insert your excuse here", take the cache and drop it off at the next cache I find, pick up that one and repeat.
Geocaching would become Geochaos.
I'm not going to play the game that way but most assuredly, there are some that would, or at least would try..
The "slippery slope" argument doesn't persuade me. Certain areas have known "power trails," & it is there and there alone that COs are fine with container-swapping.
They're really grasping at straws now, I wouldn't condone the practice for a non-pt cache that was surrounded by a pt, in fact I wouldn't condone the practice for all PTs but there line of where it is ok and for the most part cachers respect that line.
Generally if the powertrail consist of nothing but film pots then it's ok.
I have done a few PTs and have come across caches along the way with unique containers and guess what, they were the original containers. TCM is not some free for all that in your hatred of power trails you imagine it to be.
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The forum regulars more or less see TCM as either cheating...
My mistake. My impression was that most of the forum regulars considered it as stupid.
There's also the alternative interpretation that might be considered. Power Trails aren't really geocaching, so there's really no sense in using regularly accepted practices with something that is basically a side game. Kind of like claiming a FTF.
Resorting to calling lackeys names?
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I'm outa here. See ya.
Every company I ever worked for I was held accountable for my actions at all times to represent the company in a positive light.
Now imagine if we found out the Lackeys were armchair logging thousands of caches, there'd be an out cry as it is outright cheating, the fact you're all focused on proving me wrong just shows there is absolutely nothing wrong with TCM.
Saving this for reference, three cache monte approved.
in General geocaching topics
Posted
Now you understand