Kerry.

More thoughts on Averaging Cheers, Kerry. I never get lost everybody keeps telling me where to go

There's been nothing to suggest any dabbling with the system in recent times and even to any great extent in "other areas". As for WAAS the US Airforce has the perogative to put WAAS into a Military Emergency Mode in cases of dire need. I suppose in cases of dire need they also have other extreme capabilities . Cheers, Kerry. I never get lost everybody keeps telling me where to go

There's been nothing to suggest any dabbling with the system in recent times and even to any great extent in "other areas". As for WAAS the US Airforce has the perogative to put WAAS into a Military Emergency Mode in cases of dire need. I suppose in cases of dire need they also have other extreme capabilities . Cheers, Kerry. I never get lost everybody keeps telling me where to go

More comparisons with averaging v not averaging are Here Different receiver as that used in the previous comparisions on Averaging and the Effects of Obstructions on Averaging but the outcomes don't vary much. Cheers, Kerry. I never get lost everybody keeps telling me where to go

More comparisons with averaging v not averaging are Here Different receiver as that used in the previous comparisions on Averaging and the Effects of Obstructions on Averaging but the outcomes don't vary much. Cheers, Kerry. I never get lost everybody keeps telling me where to go

Charge , yes, that's probably going to be inevitable GPS is one of the biggest changes & assets to surveying since dot. Surveying accuracy & capability is quite staggering, besides it was surveyors who developed the work around to sqeeze millimetres (even less) from a system capable of 100m. The mapping stuff could probably be a reality now except the satellite system itself would never handle the extra bandwidth but certainly dedicated geo sats on the side. You'll be surprised the amount of mapping info they can now fit on one CD. Actually in Germany (I think or over that way somewhere) the in-car navigation systems link to the local weather forecast and traffic control system which makes for intelligent route decision making. It's a turn by turn description with pre-warning and lane changing requirements etc etc with the voice selectable from 12 languages (male or female). Been the odd miss-adventure but like the BMW driver who drove off what the system thought ("in 400 metres turn left") was a bridge. Was actually a ferry ramp and of course the ferry wasn't home and BMW's don't float Cheers, Kerry. I never get lost everybody keeps telling me where to go

Charge , yes, that's probably going to be inevitable GPS is one of the biggest changes & assets to surveying since dot. Surveying accuracy & capability is quite staggering, besides it was surveyors who developed the work around to sqeeze millimetres (even less) from a system capable of 100m. The mapping stuff could probably be a reality now except the satellite system itself would never handle the extra bandwidth but certainly dedicated geo sats on the side. You'll be surprised the amount of mapping info they can now fit on one CD. Actually in Germany (I think or over that way somewhere) the in-car navigation systems link to the local weather forecast and traffic control system which makes for intelligent route decision making. It's a turn by turn description with pre-warning and lane changing requirements etc etc with the voice selectable from 12 languages (male or female). Been the odd miss-adventure but like the BMW driver who drove off what the system thought ("in 400 metres turn left") was a bridge. Was actually a ferry ramp and of course the ferry wasn't home and BMW's don't float Cheers, Kerry. I never get lost everybody keeps telling me where to go

With regard the ball bit if one was to find the centre of each respective ball then that's the difference (shift/direction etc) in the positions relative to respective datum. Cheers, Kerry. I never get lost everybody keeps telling me where to go

With regard the ball bit if one was to find the centre of each respective ball then that's the difference (shift/direction etc) in the positions relative to respective datum. Cheers, Kerry. I never get lost everybody keeps telling me where to go

At the current Barcelona meeting the European heads of Government decision regarding Galileo: "In the field of transport, the European Council welcomes the progress on GALILEO and asks the Council (Transport) at its meeting in March to take the necessary decisions regarding both the funding and launching of this programme and the setting-up of the Joint Undertaking, in cooperation with the European Space Agency" It sounds like the "necessary decisions" are to be yes. Cheers, Kerry. I never get lost everybody keeps telling me where to go

At the current Barcelona meeting the European heads of Government decision regarding Galileo: "In the field of transport, the European Council welcomes the progress on GALILEO and asks the Council (Transport) at its meeting in March to take the necessary decisions regarding both the funding and launching of this programme and the setting-up of the Joint Undertaking, in cooperation with the European Space Agency" It sounds like the "necessary decisions" are to be yes. Cheers, Kerry. I never get lost everybody keeps telling me where to go

My thoughts on Averaging and Obstructed Averages, new thoughts coming. Cheers, Kerry. I never get lost everybody keeps telling me where to go

My thoughts on Averaging and Obstructed Averages, new thoughts coming. Cheers, Kerry. I never get lost everybody keeps telling me where to go

Anders, yeah I wouldn't be too sure what an extra sat or 2 would really do. I suppose it would depend on some things we don't really know. Galileo is supposedly 30 all up (includes 3 spares) but not sure what the upper limit could really be but it would have to have some upper limit purely from a signal view point. GPS as you know is a 24+3 system (total 27 from a max limit of 32 vehicles) but has run around the 28/29 for quite some time so things don't really appear all that much different. Cheers, Kerry. I never get lost everybody keeps telling me where to go

Anders, yeah I wouldn't be too sure what an extra sat or 2 would really do. I suppose it would depend on some things we don't really know. Galileo is supposedly 30 all up (includes 3 spares) but not sure what the upper limit could really be but it would have to have some upper limit purely from a signal view point. GPS as you know is a 24+3 system (total 27 from a max limit of 32 vehicles) but has run around the 28/29 for quite some time so things don't really appear all that much different. Cheers, Kerry. I never get lost everybody keeps telling me where to go

Anders, so what's going to be the difference compared to GPS L1, L2 & L5 apart from the fact that one is actually being progressed today and one is still being decided around a table. Galileo's biggest problem is the decisions (as you say) not the technology and when it's all said and done is there going be a real difference in accuracy. Funny about the eiro bit The following is Galileo's accuarcy specs Open Service - single freq, accuracy @ 95% Horz=15m, Vert=35m, no integrity, no monitoring, standard ionosphere model and no certification/liability. Open service - dual freq, accuracy @ 95% Horz=4m, vert=8m, ionosphere corrected by dual freq, no integrity, no monitoring and no certification/liability. Safety-of-Life Service - currently dual freq only, accuracy @ 95% Horz=4m, Vert=8m, integrity monitored and will be a certified/liable system. Certification/liability comes at a cost to the user Public-Regulated Service - dual freq, integrity yet to be defined/decided (@ Aug/2001), dual freq iono corrections, accuracy @ 95% Horz=4m, Vert=8m, certification/liability still under review. Then there's the other commercial services including additional encrypted signals (same as what third parties provide with GPS) plus the wireless communication networks (so very revenue driven). I don't see anything in all that which says galileo is anymore accurate than GPS and actually the modernization specs have GPS down to 1.5m Cheers, Kerry. I never get lost everybody keeps telling me where to go [This message was edited by Kerry on March 13, 2002 at 03:45 PM.]

Anders, so what's going to be the difference compared to GPS L1, L2 & L5 apart from the fact that one is actually being progressed today and one is still being decided around a table. Galileo's biggest problem is the decisions (as you say) not the technology and when it's all said and done is there going be a real difference in accuracy. Funny about the eiro bit The following is Galileo's accuarcy specs Open Service - single freq, accuracy @ 95% Horz=15m, Vert=35m, no integrity, no monitoring, standard ionosphere model and no certification/liability. Open service - dual freq, accuracy @ 95% Horz=4m, vert=8m, ionosphere corrected by dual freq, no integrity, no monitoring and no certification/liability. Safety-of-Life Service - currently dual freq only, accuracy @ 95% Horz=4m, Vert=8m, integrity monitored and will be a certified/liable system. Certification/liability comes at a cost to the user Public-Regulated Service - dual freq, integrity yet to be defined/decided (@ Aug/2001), dual freq iono corrections, accuracy @ 95% Horz=4m, Vert=8m, certification/liability still under review. Then there's the other commercial services including additional encrypted signals (same as what third parties provide with GPS) plus the wireless communication networks (so very revenue driven). I don't see anything in all that which says galileo is anymore accurate than GPS and actually the modernization specs have GPS down to 1.5m Cheers, Kerry. I never get lost everybody keeps telling me where to go [This message was edited by Kerry on March 13, 2002 at 03:45 PM.]

in about 2006/8 but it could have been 2015 without some smart people who come up with a solution ahead of time but these things still take time. And to think what you've ordered is probably already outdated by newest model out the back. Cheers, Kerry. I never get lost everybody keeps telling me where to go

in about 2006/8 but it could have been 2015 without some smart people who come up with a solution ahead of time but these things still take time. And to think what you've ordered is probably already outdated by newest model out the back. Cheers, Kerry. I never get lost everybody keeps telling me where to go

I thought the IIF modernization program has been in motion since 96 but certainly boeing have been working on this contract since at least 1998. However in the meantime there been some new technology developments which has allowed some of the IIR replenishment sats (there's at least about 16 of them in storage) to become basically de-facto IIF's well ahead of time which means we'll see the benefits of the IIF's much sooner than was originally expected. Backward compatability won't be a problem and even with the old IIR's (let alone the new modified IIR's) accuarcy improves with each new one so things will certainly get better especially with a civilian dual freq option. Cheers, Kerry. I never get lost everybody keeps telling me where to go

I thought the IIF modernization program has been in motion since 96 but certainly boeing have been working on this contract since at least 1998. However in the meantime there been some new technology developments which has allowed some of the IIR replenishment sats (there's at least about 16 of them in storage) to become basically de-facto IIF's well ahead of time which means we'll see the benefits of the IIF's much sooner than was originally expected. Backward compatability won't be a problem and even with the old IIR's (let alone the new modified IIR's) accuarcy improves with each new one so things will certainly get better especially with a civilian dual freq option. Cheers, Kerry. I never get lost everybody keeps telling me where to go

The overall situation between galileo and GPS is quite different in many respects. Galileo is a commercial enterprise and being funded (well that's the plan) by the EU. There's this thing that they don't wont to rely on other countries. However in doing this there's really a whole range of different countries, funding issues and so far there's really been no absolute get up and go with it as many countries appear a little hesitant (especially when it comes to euro's). Who will operate it, what's the structure of the revenue stream, what future regulatory actions will be put in place, the interoperability of a free open system (which GPS is) with a fee-based encrypted system, safety-of-life applications (especially if encrypted), misuse is a consideration with so many different countries at the controls, sprectrum use and will there be open specifications and standards for equal worldwide market access (as with GPS). That's one thing with GPS as some might not like it military controlled but ever seen the military go on strike 2 systems with joint operability is certainly an advantage but that also existed with GLONASS to a certain extent but never really got of the ground. Right now GLONASS is not really an operational system with only a very (very) limited number of sats still operational. Galileo still has some way to go and the first is the EU Transport ministers (all of them) agreeing and so far that's been one stumbling block. Maybe they've got over that hurdle as there was meeting due this month but then there's been do or die ultimatum type meetings before without results. Cheers, Kerry. I never get lost everybody keeps telling me where to go

The overall situation between galileo and GPS is quite different in many respects. Galileo is a commercial enterprise and being funded (well that's the plan) by the EU. There's this thing that they don't wont to rely on other countries. However in doing this there's really a whole range of different countries, funding issues and so far there's really been no absolute get up and go with it as many countries appear a little hesitant (especially when it comes to euro's). Who will operate it, what's the structure of the revenue stream, what future regulatory actions will be put in place, the interoperability of a free open system (which GPS is) with a fee-based encrypted system, safety-of-life applications (especially if encrypted), misuse is a consideration with so many different countries at the controls, sprectrum use and will there be open specifications and standards for equal worldwide market access (as with GPS). That's one thing with GPS as some might not like it military controlled but ever seen the military go on strike 2 systems with joint operability is certainly an advantage but that also existed with GLONASS to a certain extent but never really got of the ground. Right now GLONASS is not really an operational system with only a very (very) limited number of sats still operational. Galileo still has some way to go and the first is the EU Transport ministers (all of them) agreeing and so far that's been one stumbling block. Maybe they've got over that hurdle as there was meeting due this month but then there's been do or die ultimatum type meetings before without results. Cheers, Kerry. I never get lost everybody keeps telling me where to go

quote:Originally posted by worldtraveler: And then there's the third possibility... and possible intrigue. The park where I placed the cache happens to be in an area where there is a large concentration of embassies, including that of the U.S. Do you suppose the discrepancies could be due to the imposition of selective availability? If so, this may account for the greater discrepancy (~1 km) near the cache (and embassies) and somewhat lesser discrepancy further away at the hotel. I would doubt (very much) that even Selective Deniability (a little different to the old Selective Availability) could be that selective and really would eliminate that possibility altogether. It might be a map issue, it could just be that 0.01% inaccuracy period that the system can/will/could do sometimes? The distance sort of doesn't point to a datum issue especially as there's a difference in offsets within short distances and the shift is a little too much? Could also be local interference of some sort, could even be deliberate interference as that is certainly controllable over short distances. But it does sound more like a map accuracy or similar related issue as just because the maps are presumeably accurate in the U.S doesn't mean they are elsewhere. Cheers, Kerry. I never get lost everybody keeps telling me where to go

quote:Originally posted by worldtraveler: And then there's the third possibility... and possible intrigue. The park where I placed the cache happens to be in an area where there is a large concentration of embassies, including that of the U.S. Do you suppose the discrepancies could be due to the imposition of selective availability? If so, this may account for the greater discrepancy (~1 km) near the cache (and embassies) and somewhat lesser discrepancy further away at the hotel. I would doubt (very much) that even Selective Deniability (a little different to the old Selective Availability) could be that selective and really would eliminate that possibility altogether. It might be a map issue, it could just be that 0.01% inaccuracy period that the system can/will/could do sometimes? The distance sort of doesn't point to a datum issue especially as there's a difference in offsets within short distances and the shift is a little too much? Could also be local interference of some sort, could even be deliberate interference as that is certainly controllable over short distances. But it does sound more like a map accuracy or similar related issue as just because the maps are presumeably accurate in the U.S doesn't mean they are elsewhere. Cheers, Kerry. I never get lost everybody keeps telling me where to go