Ruud4d
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Posts posted by Ruud4d
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In addition to all this good advice and comment you might considder not to retreive a trackable from a cache when you know you won't have internet to properly log it. 10 days after the drop is quite some time. In these cases you might think about discovering the trackable.
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A fun coin! Great!
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If the one who put it online is the owner, it's up to him to do that. If it's not his, he should remove it.
The one who buys the trackable, is owner and responsible. When you're not the owner, you should try to fullfill the goal.
When a trackingcode is shown online, others might grab it virtualy and place it in a cache virtualy. If you don't mind as an owner, that's ok.
And don't forget that the one seeing the trackingcode can act like he wants: ignore it because he didn't actualy see the trackable or discover it.
So it's up to the people how they play the game. Do it your way...
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Und aus Holland kommt auch ein Verbündete denn auch ich bin Opfer.
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It happened when I received the coinset for the Autumn edition, that's why I just post this here.
When my package arrived, it was in a sealed plastic bag. Inside were only two coins.
Three of the coins were lost because the envelope was cut (by the coins sharp pocket edges).
I sent an email to Chuck asking for replacement of the lost coins.
No problem, he would send them soon. When I asked him about the costs, he said there were none.
Even when I offered to split the costs, he said no.
They have arrived: Thanks Chuck!
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Whether it should be Their Option to keep or remove these logs is the matter of discussion here and personally I'm hoping that GS will make a ruling one way or another based on the players opinions. Your opinion seems to be that they should. Mine is that they shouldn't. (Keep in mind that I also have a very strong feeling about the log itself...not JUST the icon.)
That being said, I'm not upset with anyone who is still playing by the rules. Currently the rules allow deleting. I want to see that changed to protect EVERYONE'S rights in this game.
Discovery on coins is a Privilege - not a right
Why would a new owner of a coin have the right to delete the log of a cacher who was given the Privilege to log the coin by the previous owner? Shouldn't that Privilege be honored by it's next owner? Shouldn't the next owner respect the (wishes of) the previous owner?
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WOW!
Enough said 'bout the coin.
P.S.
Thank you for the personal note, Kat. On order #1
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Oops. $95.00???? Did I read correctly? 95 USD for one single coin it says.
I like the coin but I'm not willing to pay that price.
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Perhaps the activation of a coin should change a little. When you activate a cache and offer it to review, you have to agree to the Terms of Use and the Guidelines.
When activating a coin, you should also agree to a Terms of Use.
Those ToU could be the same as for geocaches.
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@LadyBee4Tee.
If GS would clearly have Term of Use on which you should agree when activating a coin, would you still be activating coins?
And one of the rules of those ToU would be that you respect logs on coins and can't delete them without good reason.
And adopting a coin is like adopting a cache. You automaticaly agree to those ToU.
The trackingnumber is sold to the manufacturer of the coin. There actualy are ToU to these tracking numbers. So when they are on a coin, the coin is made with permission of GS.
For the money you paid, GS promisses to maintain a site where you can activate the tracking number and do all things we do with coins (trackingnumbers). So you buy a service of GS. But there are conditions on using it.
But those are not clear to someone who bought a coin. So when you activate a coin, you should agree on honorring the ToU.
I hope I'm clear.
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Say I purchase a Parking Facility, and there are a handful of vehicles parked there. I have new plans for this facility - I want to resurface it or use it in a different manner so I am going to have these cars removed off my Property. Same thing with a coin I have purchased with my own money it belongs to me, it is my property, and if your log is parked there, and the log is in the past before I owned the coin then I will consider having them removed, of course as I reiterated before, they would only be discover logs from events where the coin has not traveled and the discoverers have not spent anytime with the coin but only viewed for a few seconds then I will probably delete the logs.
And if the log owner did not receive a log deletion notice they would not even be aware of it being archived.
We are talking about GEOcaches and GEOcoins. Not GEOparking lots. But I will use your example. When you buy a parking lot and you have new plans for that facility, you must first ask permission with your local authorities if you may change it. Otherwise your parking lot stays a parking lot. The only thing that changed, is the owner.
'either way actually GS ownes all of the coins and the caches. we just find them and hold them for awhile.'
Ground Speak Does Not Own Coins you purchase or Caches you maintain - You are the Cache Owner, GS does not fix your cache, or supply it with swag or cache log or find the spot to place it, you are the Cache Owner and when submitting you agree to certain terms and one term is that you can not delete legitimate logs. There is no such agreement when it comes to coins. They are property of the coin owner.
GS owns the tracking number on the coin (wrote this earlier) and facilitates the website. That way that number is only useful on that site. When GS goes broke, the website is gone. Your GEOcoin then turns into just a coin. Just a piece of metal.
Let's ask GS to have Terms of Use on coins.
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I own 2 caches in which I put a few coins that should stay in those caches. They were to be discovered, not to be moved.
The thought behind it was that those coins were a bonus for those who finished the caches. They were a 37 and 25 kilometre walk.
Mind you, this was about 6 years ago when coins and their icons were kind of rare.
I put pieces of paper in the cache to make it easier for them because after a long hike, you might not want to note these small letters.
There were of course people who didn't want to log the coins because they didn't move them. And some never logged any trackables.
But by many it was appreciated.
What if I would sell these coins? Would you as the next owner get rid of the logs?
Not me. Not even if the log consisted of only a dot. Because they sometimes did refer to the coins in their cache logs.
So the logs are part of the history of the coin AND the caches. And discover logs could be part of an event log.
I strongly feel that coinlogs should be looked at the same as cachelogs. And I hope GS feels the same.
When you want to buy an older coin without history, look for an unactivated coin.
By the way, I don't think activated are worth less then unactivated ones.
The value of a coin is determined by what someone pays for it.
Part of that value is the tracking number. Coins with tracking numbers are (most of the times) more expensive then those without.
But the trackingnumber is a service provided by GS. So it may have Terms of Use. Maybe those ToU should be brought to attention when activating a coin and one should agree to them. Just like submitting a cache to the reviewers.
That way logs may be protected. Also when being adopted. And perhaps they should automaticaly be locked after a period of time.
So let's request this feature...
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I forgot to say something I wanted to say.
Grounspeak is not a police officer. So they will not correct anyone who does something like this.
But you can ask them to restore the logs. I suggest you do that. Write an e-mail to contact @ geocaching.com.
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I have removed the reference number from the original post. Apparently, several people thought it was their duty to contact the owner about this. If it's not your coin, or your log, leave it alone.
Please do not contact the geocoin owner if you are not involved. It has been discussed here many times that in the long run, it is the geocoin owner's choice whether to keep old logs on an activated coin. It's no fun to lose a log, and it's not the nicest thing to do, but it is their choice.
Thank you.
I'm sorry Eartha. Won't happen again.
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I will state this again in case it was missed--I haven't deleted any logs of the coins I have adopted. I have deleted a couple of logs on coins I have activated myself that I deemed inappropiate after emailing the person and asking them to change it. I have not deleted any logs after adopting the two caches that I have adopted and in fact left the original owner's name in the title. I hope that is clear.
That is clear. I was not attacking you in any way. Not your behaviour but of any secondhand-coin-buyer who deletes logs. This is NOT PERSONAL. This is a general discusion. OK, it started as a personal discusion.
However, just because a person has the tracking number of the coin does NOT mean they have actually seen the coin. Many people at events have a list of the tracking numbers of their coins that they have at the vent. I had a coin given to me and I still get discoveries because the previous owner left that number on their list they handed out. The coins in question were in my binder and not at those events. I didn't even delete those logs.
I read the entire page and what I see is that they are saying use the log deletion power wisely.
I know of owners who circulated lists of trackingnumbers. That's not wrong. But when a cacher has only seen the number, not the trackable itself, he or she should not log it.
The owner of a trackable who knows for sure that a log came from someone who didn't see the actual trackable, can immediately delete that log after informing the logger. Or if you see that a log was clearly a mistake, you can perform the same action.
Example: I had logs coming in on an activated coin that had never been seen by anyone. I wrote them before I deleted the log saying there was probably a symbol missread. I got the answer that was indeed the issue. Two people logging from the same missread number. They had no problem with the deletion. I think that's what's meant be using your powers wisely.
If your not sure as an owner, you can contact the logger and ask for an explanation. If it is valid, leave the logs. If not sure, leave the logs.
When you can folks do a favour by letting them have their icon, let them.
But when a owner is deleting valid logs, I think that's not done.
I think we are thinking alike here.
I don't know why this coin owner is deleting the logs. The OP is venting that he is upset that this is being done. I can sympathize with that but I also think that it is the new owner's right to with their coins as they see fit. It's not something I have done or may ever do but I still think they have that right.
And here we are not thinking alike. I don't think it's the owners right to do as he likes.
You gave an example with a house, I will give you an example with a car.
When you buy a car and go out driving it, you have to obey the rules (unless you are on your own property). The fact that you own the car, doesn't give you the right to do as you see fit.
There are no terms of use when you activate a coin. Maybe there should be, because the trackingnumber stays property of Groundspeak and they can deactivate it.
And I think that maybe they should explain good trackable ownership somewhere.
This is an opinion like what you wrote is an opinion. I totaly respect that. Thank you for sharing it.
I'll weigh in on this issue, because it is very interesting to me. When you own a coin, what you own is a metal disk in your posession. There is a tracking number on the coin, but is the number itself owned by anyone? The number on the coin acts as a key to open files on Grounspeak's servers. Surely the coin owner does not also own Grounspeak's computers. Thus, the coin owner has no real claim to the logs and Groundspeak can treat tham any way it chooses.
My own personal feeling is that coin logs are historical records and should only be deleted in very special circumstances such as if a law were being broken or the information in the logs might hurt someone. I would like to see Groundpseak freeze all coin logs after a certain period of time such as six months and they could only be deleted on a case by case basis. I buy activated coins from time to time and so far I have never deleted any logs.
I think this is a good idea. You just got yourself a +1 from me
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Use your powers carefully. The complete set of logs tells the story of the cache or that Trackable Item. Once it is deleted, you cannot restore it. You also have the power to permanently encrypt a log, which is a nice alternative to deletion.
You see? Cache or that Track able Item.
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A coin has a trackingnumber so it can be tracked and discovered once activated. In fact you agree on that as an owner of a coin. If you show the coin to people, they can note the number and write a log.
When you buy an activated coin, you agree on that as well.you accept that it has a history. As a buyer of your mothers house, you agree that someone has lived n it before you.
When there is someone who saved the tracking number, he has proof that he saw the coin and could log it again.
The new owner is accepting discover logs on the coin. So he does agree that people can log it when they have seen it. So why is he denying that fun to the other people who saw the coin before he got it?
If you read a little further, you see Groundspeak sees a coin the same as a cache. And when you addopt a cache, you don't delete the logs before you got it.
Or do you?
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No, a new owner of a coin cannot just wipe clean the logbook of the coin.
A trackable is the same as a cache.
When someone has moved or just seen the coin or TB and noted the number to look it up on the geocaching pages and then made the effort to log it, the log should never be deleted.
Unless a log is not conform rules of geocaching.com.
You can look it up: guidelines on Log Deletion.
If there is a reviewer, you can ask him to unarchive the logs.
I know one: Dominus Youp. If you write him an e-mail thru his profile, he will get them all back.
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I got my set in. The over-complete set!
It had a Cool Tribal Sun as a bonus.
Thanks for this great coin(s), Vanelle!
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Ik heb me net ingeschreven voor de GOTHeo 2012. Na Vinnie1 is er iemand anders opgestaan die dit event dat eigenlijk voor scouts georganiseerd wordt, nu ook weer voor cachers te maken. Dat is jacala2. Ik denk niet dat we de soep en spaghetti van de moeder van Vinnie1 kunnen verwachten maar ik heb me toch maar ingeschreven.
Persoonlijk ga ik voor de 20km maar er is ook een kortere versie 15km.
Zie ik jullie daar op 1 april? Nee, geen grap!
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So you like teasing...
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And when you are the owner of the cache in which the coins is at that moment, you have the same option.
When you're a visitor of the cache it isn't in, you can only ask the coin- and cache owner to mark the coin missing.
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Yea, it happens. I don't much care for it either, but it is the choice of the coin owner to do so if he/she pleases.
I feel differently about that. I see a coin the same as a cache. When found (or rather moved or discovered), an owner cannot just remove the log. It would be something else if it was a virtual log. In that case the logger has never seen the coin. But once you have seen it, held it in your hands, the log should not be removed.
Geocaching.com site update February 20th 2013
in Geocaching HQ communications
Posted
I am missing PQ's. Normaly I all have them by now but at this time it's only 3 out of 10 (two accounts).
While writing this, the fourth came in.