LifeOnEdge!

ruffnit, You hit on the big question: What am I looking for? The best you can hope for is being told. Beyond that, you can hope you know the size. Right now, the larger it is, the easier it should be to find it. The next question always is: Where is this thing? That's what the coordinates are for, BUT there are inaccuracies on YOUR GPS unit, THEIR GPS unit, vertical offset (is it on a hill? is it up, down, or just where?) Remember that they probably didn't hide a bright orange ammo can in the middle of an open field. It's probably camouflaged and hopefully painted to match its surroundings. It may be hidden behind something. URP - an unusual rock pile, UPS - an unusual pile of sticks, UTS - Up the Skirt (your typical lightpole/parking lot hide), or it could be hidden in amongst something. Rockpile caches will give you fits. Zipped inside a bush, caches can be tricky to find. Simply hung or suspended by a string in a tree can give you a visual challenge. Another common tactic is to hang a smaller cache inside a vertical pipe or pole. Look for an exposed hook (like the end of a paperclip) that keeps this cache from falling inside such an object. Urban caches might be hiding as something you expect to find on the street, BUT would never guess that a cache is inside. What looks like an outlet cover just could be attached by magnets and contain a small, folded sheet of paper. In garden areas or wooded areas, that rock just might be plastic, hollow, and hiding something you need to sign before you leave. I gave you a laundry list of things you'll be finding in your first 200 finds, but I'll bet that you'll see all these things soon, so look for these. There are also some devilish hides that makes the ones above look like a hike with your Cubscout Pack. Fake birdsnests, hollow bolts, and containers small enough to fit inside your disposable ballpoint pen may take you several tries to find. There are even fake nails out there with tiny, tiny, tiny logs! You also will undoubtedly find bison tubes and nano containers. Bison tubes are similar in size to a fountain pen and 50 - 40% of the length. Nano containers look like the eraser on the pencil for a Kindergardener, but are magnetic, usually painted silver, black, or bright colors to match street signs, electrical boxes, and other painted, metal signs and containers. Waterproof Match Containers are a thicker, longer version of a bison tube that might be painted and hidden several ways. I like to hide mine on the ground or suspended in trees. Hide-A-Key Containers might be painted silver and hidden on a guardrail or painted dark colors and hidden in a fold of metal on a WWll tank or behind some sort of metal container. Electrical transformers and newspaper boxes are popular places for these. One final suggestion is to re-read the cache page for not-so-obvious clues: - Read the hints - Read the name of the cache for a possible clue - Read the previous Find Logs for key words that might be thrown in to help future cachers. "Branched out to find this one ..." might indicate that its away from the indicated coordinates and attached to a bush or a tree. "My kids found this one ..." might indicate this is hidden closer to the ground than you might have been looking. Also, if you looked and haven't found it, step back and take inventory of where you've looked and where you haven't looked. You might discover that you've been looking on the ground and find the cache suspended from a tree branch that's slightly above your head. If you have to watch your step when entering the woods, your eyes move down towards your feet as you enter. That cache could be hidden right above your head! Good Luck and enjoy your hunts. You're going to have a lot of fun looking for these things. - Pat

I think you forgot about the rain aspect. These are lousy cache containers. Unless you are totally into the idea of visiting it every few weeks to replace your water soaked log, try something else. Do you have any suggestions on a similar size or smaller magnetic container? Something that would fit under a bench? How about the same trip to Walmart, but in the sportings goods department, and get you a Waterproof Match Container? These are bright orange, plastic, and cost about $1 after tax. Attach two size-appropriate, rare earth magnets on the side. Paint them with plastic primer and then a good, dark color. And then print out the widest log you can for the container. You'll have almost exactly what you need for this bench. Let me know how this works if you do go this route. - Pat

kidco, The first cache you found today, or at least the first cache you posted a find on today, has the following coordinates as seen on the cache page: N 45° 51.957 W 064° 16.709 - Realize first that there is a lot to learn BUT none of it is difficult. You'll figure it out soon. Very soon. Rewriting the posted coordinates correctly (geocaching.com continues to leave off the "minutes" part of the units - why I am not quite sure), we got this: N 45° 51.957' W 064° 16.709' In words, this is the following: North 45 degrees, 51 point 9 5 7 minutes West 64 degrees, 16 point 7 0 9 minutes. When you read the coordinates off of your GPS unit, they should be in this format. If not, something is not set appropriately. When you enter the coordinates to a cache you wish to publish, you will find 4 places to enter numbers. Typically, the North and West are written in already. Do this first. Write out what the coordinates are from your GPS. This could even be the location of your house for now. In geocaching.com, go to the Hide and Seek A Cache area (found in the left margin of the main or subsequent pages), go down to Latitude and Longitude Searh, and then WDS84 Datum. There, enter these coodrinates and Search for caches in your area. Do you see the same caches that you saw previously? IF so, good. You're doing this right. IF not, then you are reading something or typing something or understanding something wrong. Try again. If you still have trouble, feel free to contact me and I'll try to walk you through this. - Pat

I went to my first Event Cache after finding 37 caches. I asked one of the top cachers of Texas about a cache that I wasn't able to find. She just smiled, asked me how many caches I had found so far, and then told me to find a few more and caches like that would becomes second nature. Like the first response to your question told you (not in these words though), take it simple at first. Look for larger things in the beginning. Find a few, then a few more, and ride the learning curve. You may very well be looking for a couple caches that would have most cachers looking two or three times before finding it. OR the coordinates could be a little off and you're not spending the time you need to spend at the actual cache location. It could be almost anything. Realize that, between the error in your GPS and the error in the cache owner's GPS when the cache was hidden, you could easily be looking 20 - 30 feet away from that which you seek. You might consider pairing up with another cacher in the area and play the game where after one of you locates the cache, they continue to "look" until they are well away from the area. They then sit down and flash you a smile that tells you they know where it is. OR it might be you that finds it and moves to the side to watch your buddy find the cache. Give each other a chance. Find 4 or 5 or 9 or 10 and get a few finds under your belt! Good Luck!!!

What people are missing in all this is that ARCHIVING a cache simply removes the cache listing. Nothing more. This action can be and is often reversed. Its not a big deal. Why then can't these caches be archived, the cache owners fix them up, and then have their local reviewers un-archive the cache? In the meantime, maybe someone else places their cache and the cache owner is off the hook AND has a cache they can go after? Can't this turned into a WIN-WIN situation with the RIGHT ATTITUDE instead of it being a continual thorn in the side of all those involved??? *** I don't understand! ***

JABs, I'm not quite sure what you are asking or trying to tell us. I can only make a couple of assumptions: - Are you saying that you're (these are my sentiments) sick and tired of so many active caches out there in trouble with only a small percentage of cache owners being responsible and maintaining their caches - or - - Are you saying that you're (again, my sentiment) frustrated with archived caches sitting out as geo-trash after they are archived? I would like to share with you many, many aspects of this, but wish to do this outside of the forums. Feel absolutely free to contact me at lifeonedge@gmail.com regarding this. I think you'll be interested in some if not all that I have to say. For now, I'll say a couple things: - I too have been very frustrated with both of the above. I have tried to act on this and motivate others to no avail. I was even accused of stealing geocaches after I removed remnants of a destroyed geocache. - Too many cachers feel little or no need to maintain their caches. Attempts to inform or motivate these cachers have come to punishing those trying to help. This punishment comes from ALL LEVELS and is quite unfortunate. - I hate to admit this, especially publicly, but I too have become "under-motivated" in this regard after years of being told to "mind your own business" after asking cache owners what the status of their cache was. Where I would have jumped out of my chair and driven 100 miles one way to check on and replace a cache previously, I am now simply archiving caches that appear missing with the future hope of dropping by the cache site "sometime in the future." I can't say that I'm proud of my current stance, but "when in Rome ..." I really wish that the "community" would see that this is a serious problem that needs to be addressed and a set of common statements made that can be sent to lackadaisical cache owners who may or may not even be aware that their cache is in need to owner maintenance. I see growing discontent by many good cachers in this regard and only see a knee-jerk reaction to reign in these persons as malcontents. It's like an handful of surgeons removing tumor after tumor instead of raising the price of a carton of cigarettes AND informing th public of the dangers of smoking. I have taken all the steps that Keystone suggests above and have been told time after time that I am harassing those to which I write. It's a fine line. On one side you're caring and want to help point out a problem, but to someone else, you're trying to get rid of the very cache that some cachers found as their "first cache" and who hold emotional value. While you are seen as an "evil-doer" by some of your fellow cachers, we all lose sight of the big picture: How will geocaching be seen by John Q. Public when these piles of geo-trash are found, one after another, after these cache owner's simply lose interest in the hobby and walk off unaccountable? I see a day when geocaching is only allowed in certain areas, being banned from those places where the sport is seen as a nuisance. *sigh*

The following are just my thoughts and nothing more: - I don't see any reason you would hide a cache (visible or not) and not list it as a cache. - A bonus = bragging rights has less value than a bonus = a Smiley. Cachers who go after it and take the time to figure it out will expect, and rightfully so, to get credit for finding the cache. - Bolting this to the sign and admitting to it is criminal. (No. Really.) Doing this sends at least two messages: 1) geocaching.com condones such activities. (Since I DO NOT and CAN NOT speak for geocaching.com, I can't say if they do or they do not. But I'll bet you almost anything that they don't) and 2) it tells other cachers that this behavior is acceptable. I don't think this is a good idea on any level. It was a nice mental exercise though.

I agree with all the previous posts. Putting it all together, I would suggest that you go to your local hobby store (Hobby Lobby or Michael's both are good) and buy some jewelry sized zip lock bags. You can get boxes of 100 for around $2.00, depending on the exact size you get. These hold up much better than food storage containers (are thicker and zip more times and more consistantly), cost less, and are perfect for the Hide-A-Key containers.

If you're trying to update coordinates less than 528 feet from the posted coordinates, you can do this yourself using the tool that you are currently using. If you're trying to update coordinates greater than 528 feet from the posted coordinates, you need to contact your local reviewer and have them assist you with this. This person can be e-mailed via their geocaching.com profile. The name of this person can be found towards the begining of the posts for your cache.

I think you're general idea is good, but you're adding a feature that does little to add to a good multi-cache. Here are my thoughts: A cache with multiple stages should probably be listed as a multi-cache, not a puzzle cache. (I would much rather have credit for finding a multi-cache than a puzzle cache and find that too many multi's are listed as single stage caches or puzzle caches.) If you want to educate cachers on how to project a waypoint, excellent! Offset caches are generally seen as multi-caches since the cache location is not at the posted coordinates. Create a cache where you post coordinates to a trailhead, then project one or two more points to the final. If you want to create a puzzle cache, do that. Think of an interesting puzzle, maybe to educate or illustrate cachers on some other concept. Concentrate your time on clarity and making it the best puzzle cache in your area. I wouldn't add another concept to dilute an otherwise great idea. Just my thoughts. "Your mileage my vary." - Pat

I don't think his lawyer's would be too keen fighting a lawsuit from the diabetic cacher who ate the cookie and whose health faultered as a result, do you? What if Oprah wins and she falls off her diet? What if the cookie was one the cacher didn't like, or wasn't big enough to share, even though it arrived hot, from the oven, and his 3 kids brought it to him and he wouldn't break it into four sections? A cookie? What about a free month of Premium Membership on geocaching.com? Wouldn't that be more fitting? I think a cookie would tend to become stale in the mail. Just my thinking! _______________________________________ To address the original poster: How would you assign points? How would you determine that the ratings used on the cache found were "appropriate?" That difficult to do now, considering the *guidelines* or lack thereof, and people disregarding the unofficial method widely in use? There are cachers out there who hide a cache along a rocky road, suggest that you take a Jeep or similar vehicle to arrive at the cache, and who rate the terrain as a 5.0 because of "special equipment" when you could just as easily walked the road for ten minutes, found the cache, and walked back out. He rates his cache as a 5.0. I rate it as a 1.5. You want to assign points based on the terrain rating? IF we had consistency in the system, we wouldn't need an additional points incentive, would we? Have you ever repainted a surface that wasn't prepared for painting the first time it was done, only to find, after you repaint it, that it peels, bubbles, and cracks after a few months? I think this is similar to applying a new points system overtop of an old rating system and expecting rational results. GREAT IDEA, but you need a clean surface in which to apply your new paint. Until then, you'll have to live with peeling paint.

I don't think I condone killing other cachers to score a FTF. Generally, I find those seeking FTFs are those I want around. Let me share an observation that none of the previous posters have mentioned: Once a find has been posted to a cache page, a lot of those FTF hounds put down their car keys and kick off their shoes. Commonly, these guys won't approach the cache until the weeked, fair weather, or some other time. Not tonight, this morning, or while some reviewers fingers are still poised over that next "Publish" button. This said, what happens when you run out, grab that FTF prize, return home, and then log the find tomorrow afternoon? Hey, it was late when I returned home. My favorite show was on. My sweetie was in a great mood. AND my doggie needed out. I FORGOT. Okay? Do this a few times (three months maybe) and the boys from the neighboring (and bigger) city won't be trucking up too often to snipe these from under your noses! What I'm saying: If the people in your area THINK that you've already gotten that FTF and just failed to post your find, you can easily sleep in, plan your trip for morning, and get almost as many as you would have rushing out the door. Here's another idea. Granted, I HAVE NEVER DONE THIS, but the thought has crossed my mind more than 49 times and it puts a crazy smile and look on my face every time I do think about it. WHAT IF (considering the notifications work properly, what ... half the time?) you solve that problem of forgetting to log the FTF and you just do it before you leave the house? Hey, you can always edit the log with the details later, right? So, when Doug opens the cache page, what does he see? Life's already grabbed it! Doug doesn't rush out the door. Why would he? To be STF? I don't think so!! You load the coordinates in your GPS, swing by Starbucks on the way to the newly (found) published cache, and then you leasurely arrive to find an empty log! __________________________________ How many of you are shaking your heads and have already called the spouse and had them read this? Most I suspect, eh? LOL Here is my real message: THIS is why I love finding First to Finds. You NEVER know if you're found the cache UNTIL you've opened the cache, unfolded or unrolled or opened the logbook and seen with your own eyes that no one has been there before you! You never know. And rightfully, you shouldn't know if you're a true sportsman. It's all fun. It's all good. And who cares if you're second? You should feel good that someone beat you, whether it was 10 minutes or 10 hours to the new cache. We should all be friends here (but, unfortunately some choose the low road) and we should all be happy that someone had interest in either our cache or someone else's to rush out there and find it.

When I first started caching, I found it most useful to know what I was looking for. When I started placing caches, wondering just what to do with the Short Description, and since it came first, I used that slot to tell potential finders exactly what they were looking for. (I rock!) Sure, there is always a risk involved in caching. There's a risk involved in getting out of bed in the morning. That doesn't mean that the cache hider should shurk their responsibility to think about what they are putting out. One of my first cache finds was a GLASS peanut butter jar wrapped in camouflage tape. I didn't know it was glass, dropped it, sliced my thumb and bled all over the place 100 miles from anywhere else in Texas. I was so happy with this that I expressed myself very well in my Find Log! To this day, I jus don't hunt that guys caches. That is my vote of disapproval. He should have used his head!!! Now, I question the use of a food container, and especially one that previously contained food, as a cache container. As has been danced around in this thread, its the oil from the peanuts that lingers in the container. This can be very hard to remove for obvious reasons. Considering that animals have a much better sense of smell than we do (this really isn't true) and since they are conditioned to hunt for a ready food source, aren't these caches much more prone to be chewed than other containers? I love peanut butter. I also have found several up-the-skirt geocaches. Its pretty safe to say that that I will Never hide a cache using a peanut butter jar OR one of any type in a lightpole. (There are better options out there.) Lock & Lock containers have been mentioned above. I bought several sets at Target about one year ago for an Average Price of $2.00 each. They are excellent food storage containers. They work well for Hilda's treats and chewsticks. They also make incredible cache containers. While they don't come with peanut butter inside for $2.00, they sure are muh better cache containers. Go out and buy some, paint them, and then hide them for Hilda and I to go find!

I think anyone's guess is as good as anyone else's on this one. I went to the icon page that links to the cache log page to see what it said, and all it indicates is "Eightball." Not much information there. I am reminded of some Smiley's that I used ages ago in chat rooms, IMs, and e-mails that were simply to look cute: ("B" with a close parinthesis) is pretty cute, depending on the font. This then reminded me ... oh yeah, there was an eightball Smiley as well: 8) or more often seen as 8-) I really think this is where it came from. Someone at Groundspeak with a colorful past (or a creative present) thought it would be fun to include in the list of emoticons. I like one of the previous posters ideas of tagging a cache that one of a team found alone. I have been "spanked" for sometimes being over-critical on comments about a cache I found (or did not find.) I guess I could bite my tongue and use a icon like this to remind me or some internal joke not yet shared. In this ever-increasing Online world, we seem to need more and more things to make light of a situation or a comment that "would get us punched in the face" if we were to say that or do that in person. *sigh*

Actually knowschad, that is a link to his profile, not his finds. Let's see if I can do this correctly (I'm not terribly good with code and formats.) ... this should be a link to his finds: Boyscout64's Finds

Based on Neos2 previous post, and since you are the boss and work for the library, how about a travel bug box? In plain sight. Information on travel bugs AND geocaching at the information desk. You could easily have two caches on the same grounds. Only one is published, but the other is there to be used if someone wishes to drop off/pick up a travel bug. Sounds like you have some fun work ahead of you! Good luck with whatever you decide. - Pat

Oh the joys of geocaching! Murph, I have seen individual accounts, team account, and accounts for geocaching dogs. I have met geocachers who use a team name and would never log a find unless their spouse was along with this for the find ... or so they claim. These are good people, so I believe what I am told by them. I don't believe the guidelines say anything about the online claims of a find, but things change and I don't always read 100% of the stuff I thought I read, so ... it could be in there now, but I doubt it. (If it is, awesome!) I think the big thing here is did you log the find in the field log. Sure you did. Did you use the team name? Probably so. What else would you have used? That said, what would your spouse have used? The same name. They found the cache. They signed the name. You found the cache. You signed the name. I always sign my name and my dog's name in the caches that we find together. If she's not there, her name doesn't go in the log. Who cares? Right? I do. This way I document if she was with me. Its important to me and its accurate. Beyond that ... who really does care? I think the next important thing here is what is said in the online log. (This is another "who cares" thing.) It sounds like you have a good relationship, enjoy caching together, and would have had your spouse with you if you could. I would bet a buck that you even mentioned this in your online log. "I was here on business. My sweetie couldn't be with me ..." Just like me including my dog, you mention the situation of your find. All that to say: If you indicate what you did and enjoyed finding the cache, no one should lose too much sleep over it. You weren't trying to cheat someone. Enjoy your geocaching! - Pat (and Hilda)

Boyscout64, This is simple enough to figure out. Profiles don't contain your finds. Your geocaching profile only contains your profile information. When your profile is showing, look near the top of the page at the tabs. You're see the following: Profile / Geocaches / Trackables / Gallery / Bookmark Lists as separate tabs. If you click on the Geocaches tab you will see a list of geocaches found. Links to your finds will be there in various forms. Play with that. It's actually rather neat and very useful, depending on what you are looking for. Pat

It's been quite a while since I ordered travel bug dog tags, and I have ordered more than one set at different times, so things changed between the orders. On the last set that I received, the COPY tag had the chain attached while the ORIGINAL tag was tucked safely in a small zip lock bag. I scratched my head at this and reconsidered what I "thought" was how things worked. Considering how often both caches and travel bugs come missing, it makes a lot of sense to send your traveler out with the COPY tag originally. This allows you to have the actual tag in my possession. One could always mention on the associated page that the "Copy" tag was released on such-and-such a date. No mention of the original eliminates confusion as to "Oh, was this travel bug a replacement? Was it lost in the past?" Then, if at some later date, if the COPY was lost, one could re-release the travel bug (assuming you had another traveler) with the ORIGINAL tag. Does it matter? Not much. I think the main reason they go to the trouble of printing COPY on the additional tag is to eliminate the mindset that would release both at the same time. Given enough people (more than one, generally) different outcomes are possible. I think I prefer to send out the COPY tag for the above mentioned reasons. One additional reason: What if you get tired of the travel bug concept, have the original and with to gift it or sell it? You simply collect the original or verify it missing, delete all the information on the travel bug page, and "gift" or "sell" to your hearts content!

A pocket query is a parameter-based search for caches in a certain area. Running a sucessful one results in a compressed file that contains as many as 500 .gpx files on 500 different caches. This file can be downloaded and sent to a geocaching database (I use GSAK) where you can keep track of different caches. I also send this entire file to my GPS unit to "populate" the unit with caches to find. Doing this, I have a waypoint and a full description of each cache in the original file. Using GSAK, it's relatively easy to send waypoints to your GPS unit before leaving for a caching trip. No more hand-entering coordinates and naming waypoints. How long does it take? Assuming I have pocket queries that can be run (you can only run 5 per day), I can send the query, download it and send it to my GPS in a couple minutes. So what used to take a minute or more per cache to enter, I can now load almost as many caches as I will need in a year in less than one second per cache. Well, well worth $2.50 per month if you're wanting to find more than one cache per day.

Agreed. One does not affect the other. Ignoring takes it off pocket queries (if this is designated) and removed it from maps and searches. Remember that you don't have to place a cache on a watch list in order to monitor a cache. You can have the same cache in a bookmark list and have activity of the caches on your bookmark list sent to you as well. This adds a sense of stealth, not showing the cache owner that someone else is "watching" his cache. Unfortunately, the name of your bookmark will sometimes be displayed to others when you use this method, so NEVER title your Bookmark List something like "That Dummy's Geocache." I have someone watching my activities in one of my cache areas. I discovered this due to this error! Granted, if you want to play with someone, you could always use this as a method to impart information "indirectly."

As a general rule, if something is not supervised, it will eventually go away. Key, lockbox, or anything else that you put out there, given enough time and exposure to the wrong persons (you can't control who will happen by your cache unless it is supervised), both key and lockbox will soon belong to someone else. If this is okay with you and worth the game to you ... go for it! I think you would be happier with buying a ammo can, adding a latch and a padlock, then having cachers visit a different location to recieve the combination. Remember, if you also supply the coordinates in the stage of a multi-cache, a muggle could find that and eventually find your ammo can. I would keep that information strictly online and linked to some sort of a cipher, formula, or puzzle.

KJ, Some very good information has been posted above. I would like to add my spin on things. It might be helpful to view this from the owner's (or the caches you have found so far) point of view: Q - How do I know someone has really found my cache? A - Ultimately, by the names stated in the field log itself. Lets say that you (we'll call you) Alpha Dog and your son (we'll call him) Beta Boy have gone out and found a cache. You sign it "Team Alpha." Later, you both create your own accounts under your own names. If you signed "Team Alpha" or Team Somethingelse in the field log, then logged an online find under that name, the owner knows who found his cache. If you mentioned in your online log that you and your son found the cache, you might now go in and edit that log and include your individual cache names (and possibly state that you have now created individual accounts and are logging those.) As stated before, its very important that you date your online logs the same date that you found the cache. That's what the date selector is for. It is quite confusing to see logs dated the day they entered the log, but who then say "Found this yesterday/last week/last month." If the cache was archived, disabled and presumed missing, etc., you could be painting an incorrect picture to current finders that the cache is there, etc. Generally, if you logged a find in the field log, you can log a find in the online log. If the names are different, your online logs may be deleted by the cache owner. (You can do whatever you want, but you may risk being known as "That guy who claims finds he never found" if people don't understand what you are doing.) You could always revisit the cache, sign your new names, and claim the finds for that date. If you liked the cache and saw a need or desire to check on the cache for any reason, this would be a good thing to do. Good luck with your caching! Glad to see you thinking and concerned about this as well. - Pat

Bill, This is whats called an "offset cache." The final coordinates are offset from the initial coordinates ... which have to be calculated from the supplied numbers. A couple things are issues here: - Coordinates are generally stated with only partial units. This is such a common mistake that most simply read the missing units. Since you are new, you're coming in with no assumptions. I'll explain: You state your first coordinate pair as N 37 11.048 W 076 26.050. This is actually N 37° 11.048' W 076° 26.050', meaning North 37 degrees 11.048 minutes, West 076 degrees 26.050 minutes. North and south degrees only go from + 90 degrees (the North Pole) to - 90 degrees (the South Pole). Because of this, the number is only written with two numbers. East and West coordinates are different. They are expressed through +/- 180 degrees, and are therefore written with three numbers, including the leading 0 if less than 100 degrees. This is sometimes dropped as well. Remember than negative West (or East) refers to East (or West) with no negative sign. So, moving East with a West coordinate, the numbers are subtracted. Your offset coordinates are: North 0.048 minutes West 0.050 minutes OR N 00° 0.048' W 000° 0.050' Since you are going north and west of the initial position, you ADD corresponding coordinate number. N 37° 11.048' + N 00° 0.048' = N 37° 0.096' and similarly with the West coordinates ADDING if you are going West and SUBTRACTING if you are going East. Remember that there are 60 minutes per degree if you are adding larger numbers or are using numbers close to 60 minutes. There may, in fact be a typo in the numbers supplied since the offset and the original postions share the same numbers. This may have just been a chance occurance or something done as "cute" by the cache owner. You might read through the previous logs on the cache page to get clues to errors (typos) such as this. They are quite common. _________________________ A couple quick (related) tips: - On the trail and needing to move to a new waypoint, I always mark a brand new waypoint where I am standing and edit the coordinates to where I want to go. This creates a whole new waypoint on your GPS (assuming you have the room) but it does allow possible error. You have to edit, check, and recheck your numbers with math and your entry. - You can easily write coordinates like N 37° 11.048' here, on a cache page (description) or in a post by copying and pasting the coordinates found at the top of any cache page. The numbers can then be edited and the degrees symbol retained. - There is also a waypoint feature that formats the numbers for you as well as displaying them in bold at the top of a log on the cache page. This solves the problem of having to write out "degrees" or typing some other character and eliminates confusion. _________________________ I hope some of this helps. If you have questions, don't hesitate to e-mail me at lifeonedge@gmail.com. I'll be happy to clarify anything I may have not explained well here. - Pat

They're not especially common, but they are not unheard of either. But since you ask questions in these logs of yours, you should expect some replies. I wouldn't know. Not if it drags on and on. A couple of Q&A logs, sure. A long drawn-out argument, or even just a single abusive log, is not. If it happened once to me, I'd think that the one person was just some sort of wacko. But if it happened frequently to me, I'd have a pretty strong clue that the problem is with me. ...................... Okay, you wanted people to answer your questions, so I did. Now that that's out of the way, a bit of editorializing: When I read your initial post, I was thinking that you just have poor social skills and don't communicate effectively. I rank up pretty high on the social ineptitude scale myself, and am often concerned that I am unintentionally offending people. So I didn't really think too much of it. But after reading all of the subsequent posts, I read a couple of your logs. I only looked at a few of your recent finds, so I didn't see any of the "stalking" type you were initially talking about. But I did see the logs on The Hocky Stop, which elicited a loud "Yikes!" and a pair of raised eyebrows from me. You can't find the cache, but you are sure that you've seen that kind before... so, rather than thinking that maybe it's a different twist on a familiar theme, you decide that you'll have to go out there with implements of destruction to "fix" it? !!! We have a cache that at first glance appears to be a standard hide: An ammo can in the woods. It's not quite normal, though, since the cover has been welded shut and a new "secret" opening has been made in the bottom of the can. Most people have spent the time it takes to figure out how to get it open (there are hints on the cache page to prevent too much frustration). But now I picture you coming to find it, and, being "pretty knowledgeable about caches like this", since, being an ammo can, it's just a "pretty standard" hide, will take it upon yourself to use tools to damage the container because it doesn't work the way that you expect it to work. Wow. I'm at a loss for words. I know exactly the words you are at a loss for. You FAILED to include that in your list: May 8 by LifeOnEdge! (3130 found) (#3121) Hilda and I came out to check on this one following the maintenance note. I went to where I knew the cache had to be and was able to liberate it this time. It was still a little tight, but at least I got to it. Thanks so much for the cache! LifeOnEdge! and Hilda Dog!