teamwsmf

Yes there are ways to delete all logs and and the cache descrition. Look in the caches you have created. That simple- Hows the koolaid crowd doing?-

There are many places on the net that do NOT demand you give away the right to your works. Those that do are usualy frequented those too dim to read the TOU or who are of the servants mindset. GC.com has CHANGED its Terms OF Use over the years. For those who have not been around long enough to remeber things were not always as they are. Now That GC.COM has decided to become the sole rights holder to anything I write am I stuck having to accept it with no recourse? What If i do not want my works controld by gc.com? Wheres the exit clause? From what I am hearing the koolaid drinkers say I should just shut up and do what I am told and be happy. That sounds like a Bend Over deal. If thats what your into, good for you. It is, though, something many folks here did not sign up for and will not hang around for. There are already places on the net to do GEOCACHING without having to deal with the cult of GC.COM These places are not charging a dime and are offering up thier data for all to use. Most are localized so check you area for them. All of them I have come across also do not DEMAND that you hand over total rights to your own good works to some central company. Hey, imagine that, I can be in control of my own works. So GC.COM becomes the AOL of Geocaching, cool. There is always a need for a place where people can be spoon feed information and told to follow the rules of the powers that be. For those who do not need a mommy or daddy figure to lord over them or to "protect" them, there is the rest of the net. I hope to see some of you there, for the others, drink deep the koolaid of gc.com and smile while you are getting that warm bit of luving as you bend to the house rules. wheeeeee

The argument I am hearing is that GC.COM has the right to everything you write here you have no rights to what you create here. If folks want to subject themselves to that level of servitude then cool, have at it. Have fun being exploited. Meanwhile there are several GEOCACHING sites ont he web where folks are still into playing the game of Geocaching and not playing GC.COM's game. bahhh bahhh little sheeple.

Deleted [This message was edited by NO OverbearingTO$ on September 08, 2003 at 03:59 PM.]

quote:Originally posted by Warm Fuzzies - Fuzzy: But you're not at all bitter or spiteful, oh no. And you'd never misrepresent the argument against yourself either. Bitter? Heck right after that last thread a dozen sites poped up with exactly what I was looking for. I did not have to raise a finger, host a page or do any work. Seems there were plenty of folks out ther e who had the same idea, some a lot longer than I did, and just ran with it without a care to post of it up here. Lets face facts, there were already sites out there doing this about 6 months ago or longer via other methods. Brians oft mentioned geopalm site is a great example of that. So why get on my case. I was asking questions and voicing my opinion, others where and are out there actualy doign what you say you despise, and no words for them? Your IP has been floating free on the net for a while with not an iota of aid from me. It was even posted about here a few times. No harsh words then though. And what about all these neat tools that are comming out to make it Easier to do all this. Arent things like spinner, gpx2html and thier like simply giving aid to the "criminals" of your IP? AS more and more local site post data your goign to find yourself spending more and more time protecting your IP, the set of Lat Long coordinates to a geocache you placed..probably on public lands. And so it goes. Meanwhile, Im out geocaching with my family, making the occasional post here, setting up new caches with the kids and sharing it with any and all. Life is short, this is a game of treasure hunt; the turf wars, chest thumping and purity police work Ill leave to others. Thankfuly that old saying still holds true....the net routes around blockages. -tomwsmf ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

quote:Originally posted by Mopar: Ya know, I have somewhere around 1500 posts between the old forums and the new ones, and have only received a few "hate mails" in that time. Same here. Im far from the lovable GC.COM Fanboy #1 nor am I ever going to win a popularity contest here, but I have never even recieved one "hate" email off the forums. My email adress is pretty easy to get to so I thought I would get a few. The one or two I have gotten were from folks lookingto see why I thought a certian way. Folks may stomp ya a mud hole on the forums but thats where it stays. As to using a phony username, why the heck bother. -tomwsmf ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

Pentagon pledges 'no global GPS blackout' ..maybe http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993474 "The Pentagon has told New Scientist it will not implement a global GPS blackout for civilian users if war starts in Iraq, as seems increasingly likely. "We would not create a global problem for transport out of spite for Saddam," says a spokesman at the US Department of Defense. However, he admitted that the US military does have the capability to jam civilian GPS signals regionally, and did not rule this option out." ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

quote:Originally posted by ClayJar:If you were only displaying a box of the I'd say you have a decent chance of being in the "allowable (with permission) uses of PQ GPX data". Of course, perhaps Jeremy would not give permission (and there are valid reasons), but I'd tend to think that he'd probably give you permission to do that with your GPX. There has already been a thread about this and the answer came back with talk of "the law" "copyright infringment" "ripping off gc.com and thier IP" and other such terms as well as a general negative vibe from the posters to that thread. Anything that is seen to "dilute" gc.com's Intelectual Property will be dealt with. OF course form waht I am seeing on the web this is not really halting developement of folks using screen scrapings anf the gpxs. Over the last month I have heard of several sites not only offering up local info on caches but people sharing thier gpx's to stitch togther regularly updated databases from whcih to query against. I would be veryinterested in seeing a PHPNuke based set of blocks that would use the gx or other data streams to reort back infromation helpfull to geocahcers....I mean thats the main thing here, right, being helfull to the folks who geocache? Keep us infromed -tomwsmf ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993474 "The Pentagon has told New Scientist it will not implement a global GPS blackout for civilian users if war starts in Iraq, as seems increasingly likely. "We would not create a global problem for transport out of spite for Saddam," says a spokesman at the US Department of Defense. However, he admitted that the US military does have the capability to jam civilian GPS signals regionally, and did not rule this option out." ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

quote:Originally posted by BrianSnat:Hey, supposedly the posts were not complimentary to me, but I still don't think they should have been removed. I realize that Geocaching.com isn't the government, but I dislike censorship. If the posts contained profanity, or statements that widely could be considered offensive, then maybe. But I don't see this as the case here. The policies of the palces you decide to frequent say a lot about who you are. Not every place is going to resonate with every person. Finding a place you are comfortable with to spend time and effort being an active memeber in is not easy, I am still searching for such a place for my geocaching activities. Sometimes you deal with the foilbles of a place until a better place is found, or failing that a place created. Good luck in your search. quote:_A government that is big enough to give you all you want is big enough to take it all away._ -Barry Goldwater A great quote that fits nicely in this thread- -tomwsmf ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

That is one long string of bad luck. My first thought is ..dont place a cache too close to where you work. I wonder if over time lowjack style tracking will be economical for caches. Best of luck with your next cache -tom ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

quote:Originally posted by Mopar:+ http://www.wikipedia.org - Owned by Bomis, Inc. A highly profitable web portal, search engine and web host. Mostly deals in "guy oriented" sites (soft porn) They give away the full database of the project and update it on a daily basis. There project has not fallen down or died because they allow the whole database to be handed out IN TOTAL to anyone that wants..heck they even throw in the code to run the web site that serve it up...And yet they still thrive. THey got good backing, gee now theres an idea. quote:+ http://www.openoffice.org - Owned by Sun. A little ol' computer company ya'll might have heard of.... SO why does a big company GIVE AWAY not nly the app but the source code? Could it be they get the idea that given the open access to things the users tend to work things out for themsleves? Hmmmm. quote:+ http://www.winamp.com - Nullsoft, a division of AOL/Time Warner. 'Nuff said. The company was origanly a three or four person deal run out of the south west. The Nullsoft team was giving it away LONG befor they got bought out by AOL. Ok, so in your mind the buyout invalidates the whole concept , so take Winamp and discet ZINF, QJOFOL, Audacity, Virtual Dub just to name a few audio based projects. quote:+ gutenberg.net - OK truly a non-profit labor of love. But wait, whats this? _Q: Can I copy your site, or your site materials? A: No. Keeping the PG site updated with the latest e-text releases is an ongoing job, and our experience is that people, however well-intentioned, do not keep copies up to date. Actualy they will galdly help you become a Mirror site , that is someone who carries full or partial copies of the entire data store, all they ask is you stay current to avoid confusion. See you need to dig just a little bit deeper in your studies, points off for incompleteness. Next... quote:+ http://sourceforge.net(including your countermoves subdomain) - Sourceforge is owned by VA Software. Besides owning many of the major tech websites, they also SELL software, services, and support. Sell. For money. Not give away for free. The bulk of the projects that have a source forge page though do not run behind major corporations, I know Im one of them. Do a little digging, where does countermoves.sourceforge.net get its funding? We would be doing our project regardless of there being a Sourceforge to post on, Sourceforge is simply an easy way to post in one place where everyone can find you easier than a google. BUT, the projeccts themselves, where is thier funding. Who funds MULE or Virtual Linux or PDFcreator or QUB or most of the other 56k projects listed (figure maybe 10k of them are actualy active, still a good chunk) quote: Can you please explain how they relate to Geocaching.com? They each show that things can be given without the world falling down in some chicken little nightmare of doom you hear around here. Open data, open access, and open sharing works. -tomwsmf ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

quote:Originally posted by SE7EN: Allow you access to their raw data? I suspect they don't. Nor should they. They have _every_ to deliver you the data as they see fit. Guttenberg allows you to grab every last file they offer, a few gigs worth. They will even allow you to become a mirror site so that folks can grab it easier. Wikidepa allows you to grab daily and backup copies of thier entire database as well as the software that runs it. Sourceforge allows downloading of anything and everything they offer. What is cool is what they host are open source projects, these are projects that give away the source code as well as the working binaries. Grab em all, in fact its encouraged you grab them often if your a developer.Each project gets to pick its own license to show use and distriution practices. gee, sounds like another idea I heard around here. Openoffice, same del, grab the binaries and then if your a devleoper grab the source on a daily basis so you get the freshest builds to work with. These are just a few projects that do this... Still dont get it, oh well... ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

quote:Originally posted by SE7EN:Run a site a like they would want you and you'll end up like one of those _other_ sites. 'Nuff said. YEa running an open data project never works...not ever...not even these.. http://www.wikipedia.org/ http://www.openoffice.org/ http://www.winamp.com/ http://www.gutenberg.net/ http://gnuwin.org/index.html http://sourceforge.net http://countermoves.sourceforge.net For those who still dont get it, thats ok, seems there are more who do such that the tide will turn. -tomwsmf ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

quote:Originally posted by VentureForth:It is possible, isn't it, to state how wrong the idea is without tromping so hard? Actualy this has been a good thread for me. I thought the idea had some merit, and I still do. What I have realised though is the vocal audience here is of a differnt ilk. I have found a place where folks dig it, in fact are doing it, so we will see what comes of it. Its not so much about bad ideas, just bad audiences- Live and learn. AS for the whole idea of sharing, might I suggest a quick look at the following places where "giving it away" is the way things work, and work well. http://www.wikipedia.org/ http://www.openoffice.org/ http://www.winamp.com/ http://www.gutenberg.net/ http://gnuwin.org/index.html http://sourceforge.net http://countermoves.sourceforge.net For those who still dont get it, thats ok, seems there are more who do such that the tide will turn. -tomwsmf ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

Im my quest to come up with some cool local web projects using geaching as a theme I have come across a problem. I want to include local cache info on the site but each author here is the sole rights holder to thier data. To include the data I would want I would need to contact each author and get permission. Then I thought, well heck , in the day and age of plaes like the Creative Commons (http://creativecommons.org) why dont we just apodt a simple notation system so cache creators can say how thier caches can be used. Rough catagories would be --------------------------------------- Geocaching.com Only - the cache data can not be scrapped, lifted or used on any other web site/service other than geocaching .com NonCommercial - the cache data can be used on other web sites/servers but only for noncommercial uses. Share Alike - the cache data can be used on other web sites/servers but only if that web site/server allows it it be shared in the same manner set out by the creator. Open - the cache data can be used anywhere anyhow by anyone, its in the wild, have at it. --Some extras that can be added--- Attribution - the cache data can be used but it must be attributed to the original author with or without an url that links back to them No Derivative - the cache data can be used but must be used as it was created, no altering, editing adding or changing is allowed --------- Well thats the rough idea. Im sure we can hash out a good set of standards to use. It would certianly make clear how each creator wants thier data used. -tomwsmf ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

quote:Originally posted by Warm Fuzzies - Fuzzy:.....Even if Jeremy wanted to, he couldn't give you permission to republish that data, because he doesn't own the copyright on it. You can of course do whatever you like with your own cache descriptions, but that's not what you're asking, is it? You're asking for the rights to _everyone else's_ hard work Which brings me to the next logical step. Given that each user is the creator and author of thier cache entries, would it be permissable to tag or somehow mark the caches with a CCL type license. This little byte would state wether the author allows anyone to use thier cache description anywhere, anywhere but they want attribution, anywhere but with atribution and only if its posted as is with no editing allowed (ie no derviative) or if its only allowed to be used on geocaching.com This would almost mesh with the Members Only idea. Rough idea, but it would help folks knwo implicitly what the status and intent of each cache is. Does this need a new thread? -tomwsmf ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

quote:Originally posted by Jeremy Irish:TeamWSMF, Perhaps you can take this vitriolic energy and expend it on something more positive, like Geocaching! I see you haven't been out since October and the weather hasn't been too bad out here in the PNW. What, and give you a break from dealing with ireate customers? Nah. As for not being out geocaching recently, there are many irons in the fire for Teamwsmf. I have a years old strategy game print zine I do up ( http://countermoves.sourceforge.net) in which you have gotten some ink (all good). I raise kids, one of whom is about to place her first cache in a months or so (which might start a whole new Barbie Cahe meme). I just got thrown into a project to seed public libraries with Public Domain text /print kiosks. This naive idealist is actualy busy doing naive idealist stuff At 38 I have dodged the virus that turns one into a crusty oppertunist. Hopefully I wont come down with that malady anytime soon, though it does seems to spreading. -tomwsmf ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

quote:Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):There's also the alt.rec.geocaching newsgroup which is also a good Jeremy hater place to visit, if you want to join the club. It's a wonderful feeling to be the target of so much vitriol. If folks did'nt care about the place they wouldnt say aything. This is called userfeedback and what it should be telling you is that even folks who start out willing to load cash on you (in donations and in membership) will call you when you do something they dont like. How you deal with it is the key here, and if you have images in your mind of ME vs. THEM, then maybe this is just unhealthy for you to be doing. Pick up a Tom Peters book and delve intothewonderfullworld of having a customer base and how to work with them. -tomwsmf ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

quote:Originally posted by Jeremy Irish:TeamWSMF, Based on skimming through your recent posts I've come to the conclusion that you are a naive idealist. Wow, thanks for skimming- So its the classic "Your just an idealist" stance on your end? Cool, that at least shows wjere you value ideals. quote:...Here's my challenge to you - Based on the success of Geocaching, come up with your own site with a new concept around GPS usage. Innovate and show us what you have. Blow us out of the water with your new idea and show us how your ideals work. But quit asking for handouts from Geocaching just because you feel entitled. Handouts? I see so, the data that I and folks like me put into the system are now "hand outs" Nice attitude. So your "biz" model here is to set up a site, have folks voluntere data and content, then tell them its begging to get that data back out to use as they want. OF course, then you charge them for that- Its definetly sounding a lot more like the RIAA with every post- Also, let me see if I got this straight, the use of a GPS for a geocaching type concept was YOUR sole idea to begin with and is yours alone to do a site on? quote:..come up with your own site with a new concept around GPS usage. I see clearer now. Geocaching.com IS geocaching to you. Nice. I knew this thread would clear things up for me. I hope others reading are also seeing things as they are as well. -tomwsmf ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

quote:Originally posted by fizzymagic:I've posted this here before, but the application is now mature enough that I thought I would give this a more meaningful title. Hats off to you, this is exactly what I have been ranting about for months now- Easy to use, produces great looking NON PROPRIETRY output, is useable, and is able to be shared with folks at will. Making the exe from perl was a very very nice touch. This allows MORE users to get the benifits of your creation. Where do I send the whuffie? -tomwsmf ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

quote: I just wanted to let you know I appreciate your site, I know TeamMWSF does as well, and I look forward to seeing the work TeamMWSF will contribute to geocaching in the future. I would love to do up a site that lists the local Portland Oregon caches, make that data available in a non proprietry PDA format, even add a Portland area BBS to give it some local flavor and some other cool netdoodads to spice it up. Heck Id love to crack out Zope or a wiki and open things up....do a peer review of the caches, have folks eb able to post Test caches, caches they want to test out localy before broadbanding them up to the whole geocaching community . SOme folks might use it, no one might use it, it might wind up being just a page TeamWSMF uses..who knows until its done. Thing is of late I have been hearing many phrases that lead me to believe the powers that be here would find some way to say the TOS here makes it illegal for me to offer that up on my site. Isnt that great, a TOS that chills out folks wanting to do something. If I could be assured by Jermey and the powers that be that the act of taking my weekly GPX file of local Portland OR caches, spinning out the data into an HTML page and allowing users access to it on my page in a number of differnt formats, along with what ever other goodies I can do, then heck Id be open for use in under a week- So ther ya go, Im puttig some walk to the talk. TeamWSMF stands at the ready if the assurances could be given. If not, well who the heck wants to get into a legal pissing match over control of the kool aid? Im sure there are some who will, and they will get my support. -tomwsmf ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

quote:Originally posted by TJ-Tigger:With all the people who work to find a way to get Geocaching data to their handhelds, it seems that it would be a good idea to have a palm size formated site availble for Plucker or iSilo. A fellow geocacher named Brian was doing just this. He made PLuckerable pages avialable for a lot of areas. It was done months, months, before the offical mobipocket dreck came out. It worked, it had more detail than the mobipocket crude, and it looked great on a pda. Of course no good deed goes unpunished and "something" happened such that brian was made unable to offer this up anymore. hmmm. The site is still up http://www.pathetique.com/geocaching/ and Brain is working on a GPX based solution to get things up again. Hopefully he wont be "hampered" in his future efforts. ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

quote:Originally posted by Jeremy Irish:I think what befuddles me is that there are two options right now - GPX or Mobipocket. It's like the old Mac vs Microsoft debate which is essentially pointless. To each his/her own, but the bottom line is you have a choice between the two. So where's the negative? It befuddles you folks would rather make there own options rather then have to wait like a humbly silent adept for the priest hood to poot out the True And Accepted versions of the Word? Come on, please dont tell my you dont realize in this day and age folks would not want it open there own devices. Look around you, in the days of XML, open source, distributed projects and an ever increasing number of display types (cell phones, pdas, tablets, etc) to show thier data on its not just IF the data will be made available, its WHEN. And with GPX WHEN is NOW. Now, one preson in my area grabs the GPX file and put its up on thier web server. Everyone that wants can grab it from them. Thats them, not you or your bandwidth so the whole arguement of "Open data will KILL geocaching.com because the traffic will be massive" is a false one. Image that, folks sharing data, offering it up in the raw gpx or sometimes formating them up in HTML or other formats. Folks who are into the activity of Geocaching rather than the cult of geoaching.com Cult? Ok maybe thats harsh, I take that back. But what do you call something or someone that seeks to gather up all parts of an activity and then tell folks they are not allowed to tap into that activity UNLESS its in an APPROVED manner by the Powers That Be. Graph the bottleneck, see the clog, realize on the net this sort of damage is routed around, methods arise to move the flow from the narrowing of the bottleneck to more accessable manners. Ive been watching Geocaching.com for a few years, been a memeber for over a year, paid for the last years of membership even before the offical PayPal signup was put up. Thats right, look it up, I paid for a membership a few short days after I donated the same amount BECAUSE I belived the place rockethed mosth amazingly. But now there is open talk of TOS legal action, there has been various roadblocks to folks seeking to help out the Geocaching community (some of which are amazingly not on geocaching.com) and it is beging to look a lot like the RIAA than a grassroots geocaching community site. Was blocking the works of Brian's Palm site somethign you are proud of? Here was a guy offering up timely data to folks in Palm ready formats MONTHS before you guys and did it freely, openly and without. Repeat WITHOUT, hammering your servers. Sure you were working on a Palm solution, but why was it nessecary to openly thwart the efforts of someone who was filling a niche? Was it nessecary to play the "we are the keepers of the one true word of geocaching" card on the effort? And what was the results of your monthsw long work on the PDA solution? Mobi Pocket. With Mobi pocket you get another eula as well documented practices of causing problems for using other apps to read docs , thats right Mobi hijaks the creator typesod some other docs files. Nice choice, man that was so much better than Brians solution which worked with several PDA doc readers. GPX was the best thing you could have done to the data. Rather than having to start over folks are building up thier own databases, many of them to SHARE FREELY without need or care for Terms of Services, Thou Shalt Nots and other such legal constraints. GPX has opened this place wide and the Choices of how to see teh data is not Your Way Or The Highway, its in as many ways as folks are want to do it up in. Heres the in a format thats usable, there are the tools to make them into html, stuff em into mySQL, wrap em in php, spew em in spread sheets. Add. Mix..... Serve up to any and all. OF course the next often heard cry comes to the fore "But with all these sites having data about geocaching, whos is going to make sure its all current, that it is all valid, that its PURE" Two words, peer review. The very things that makes a cache valid here, peer review, will work on other sites. If someone is housing data thats old, how many folks will use it when there are other sites who have more current data. If someone puts up bogus data the word will get out and folks wont trust the site. Did someone say Whuffie? Well since it was mentioned, yea, whuffie. Sites that allow peer reivew methods will do better. Others will run on trust. Then of course the cry will go out "Hey you are being mean, you are the enemey of geocaching.com, you are looking to do away with it." Far from it me droggies, far from it. Folks need to have the OPTIONS to be able to meet the needs of the community rather than only the gc.com few. How long did it take mere users to come up with PALM solutions? A heck of a lot shorter than it too the few harried folks runnig the web site. Its a full time job to run a web site of this magnitude, all props to them that do it and my money has gone to back those words, but WHY WHY WHY have them shoulder EVERY need of the community? There are folks ready willing and able to do these things, who have DESPITE the actions of the powers that be. Even when there are other sites carrying PDA formated data for local ares, even when there are splinter communities using some of the data they find usefull, even when folks are off doing thier own thing to create new and unthought of ways to use what the community has FREELY offered up ...even with all this stuff going on that is not controled directly by the powers taht be of geocaching.com folks will still come here to get thier sites listed, to talk to each other, to sahre in the forums, to discuss cool places they have been....because this is a Community of folks who are varied, dynamic and, left to make thier own choices, have proven to be amazing solvers for the myarid of problems that come along. So there, thats what crawled up my GPS. Thats the particlar nits im picking here. Thats the bee in my bonnet. And given the activity with GPX data and its spreading its seems to have crawled up others GPS's as well. Hope this helps to clear things up. -tomwsmf ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

Its amazing, back when the Mobipocket dreck was foisted on folks it seemed the only good work arounds were scrapers and sites like Brians excelent site, which of course stoped working thanks to the folks at geocaching.com..gee thanks. Now there are GPX Files and a slew of converters to make them into html, loc, palm and other useful formats. Also there are a slew of folks hosting web pages up with the results of thier personal tweekingo f the raw data. SO after all the closed source, proprietry , blah blah contortions the data is out in the wild again....So remind me, why did the powers that be take the unuser friendly road inthe first place? Annd more importantly, what are you fave solutions, web pages and gizmos that are busting out the gc data into the wilds? ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org