Team GeoBlast

I'm prepared to start respecting you at any time. You know what you need to do to earn it. I don't even have to say it.

It's a cold winter day and we're hurrying home for Christmas dinner. We don't have time for a 5 star multi cache adventure. We want to find something that takes just a few minutes of time. Fortunately our route takes us down a snowy street passed homes decorated for the holidays. (Wal*Mart is closed so it's not as if we can go there to get some last minute presents and find the cache in the parking lot). While enjoying the holiday displays, we stop an lift the skirt on the street lamp to find a film can with a log sheet to sign. Just the perfect cache to find and get home for our family meal. (And besides the snowman is on private property. Do you really expect a geocacher to climb over the fence and start checking the snowman's nose? I'm pretty sure that sign says "No Tresspassing") That's funny but it was my cache dream and I own the rights to it. It's not on private property. In fact, on the way back from the cave, I found a perfect piece of wood that I was looking for a project that I was thinking about. I whittled it into a whistle for my Grandpa instead of jumping into the last minute shopping rush. On Christmas morning, he cried when he unwrapped it as he taught me to whittle when I was ten years old. All attempts to interject angst will fail. It's just not happening man.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with this provided that taking a new hider aside and showing them some caches that you've enjoyed and helping them understand the *basic architecture* of a good cache beyond the guidelines is acceptable and not considered stifling creativity. I'm not talking about asking them to place the type of geocache that I like but getting it across that the sky is really the limit and it is okay to try new things if that is their desire or showing them how simplicity sometimes can be just as fun to use. If they see the joy I have when I find a great cache and it rubs off, so be it. But I've never said "do it this way." Help with with information like *understanding what an appropriate container is for that area and the sharing of knowledge how the landscape can change seasonally is assistance I enjoyed early in my cache hiding career and it really helped me. Let me tell ya, my caches rock because of it! I see passing this type of information on as essential. This is the culture that I am describing.

Find the cache in this painting Do you see the snowman? The carrot on his nose is actually a well sealed plastic carrot with some coords inside. The coords lead you out of town and onto a little side road. You venture out onto the road not knowing what to expect but the anticipation is indeed building. About a quarter mile down the road, you encounter a much larger weather proof tub tucked inside a man made shelter. It has 4 pairs of snow shoes in it. You look at your caching partners and smile. There's no need for conversation because it is understood that you are now firmly inside an adventure. "What could possibly be next?" reverberates inside your head as you punch the new coords into your GPS. When you see that the coords lead to about a mile into forest towards some foothills, you realize that you are all in and it feels good. You strap the shoes on and head into the woods. About a half mile into the trek you stop to get some water and you notice how still and beautiful the woods are here. The only disturbance to this pristine place is the tracks you have left behind. You and your friends understand something very special about Geocaching at this point. You would never have experienced this place and this moment if you had not checked inside that carrot. You push on and once you get inside 500 feet, you can see that you are very close to the hills. As you enter a clearing you see IT. It's a cave. It's not just a cave but an ice cave carved into the hill. You go inside and easily find the cache. Looking around you appreciate the amazing amount of work it took to carve this place out. There's shelves and benches in a well planned out circular configuration. Inside the cache you find a note. "Welcome to my cave. I've lived in this area for 45 years and every winter I make the trek out here and recreate this place. It is where I come to get away from it all and think. I've never shared it with anyone until now but since I am getting up in years, I decided to make it into a Geocache. I hope you will enjoy and respect this special place. Please keep it our secret" Or... where you talking about the frozen film canister under lamp post skirt?

I've followed this thread since the beginning, but stayed out of it (as much as I wanted to jump on one comment or another) - until now. This quote is just too funny, because it describes geocaching as it was in the beginning. I've been to many of the early caches - some because that's when I started, others because they are an interest of mine (why? I don't know, they just are. In fact, I started the first History Challenge cache). Let's see ... a cache at a wide spot in the road without anything else to recommend it (no view, history, hike, etc.); a cache at a freeway intersection out a way from most everything (including view, history, hikes and the like); a cache in the woods under one of countless bushes (I still haven't found the right one, I'll keep probing bushes. You can hike to this one, or drive within 100 yards); a cache in a ATV playground out in near desert (the only view is the noisy machines that may run you down get to the cache); a cache under a tree in range land just off a dirt road (careful what you sit on); a cache under a sage bush next to a quarry with a nice view (and sound) of the newer quarry just over there. These are all caches that were set up very early on - when the whole idea was to "hide something so it can be found". And when has a tolerance for ... let's see, how should I phrase this, hmm, you would probably say: "less creative" caches mean frowning on the use of creativity? If a hider doesn't have creativity and places a bland cache, because I (or anybody) don't condemn him for it that means I (or we) don't like/want (i.e. 'frown on') creativity??? Maybe that bland cache was the best he could do? So, because he isn't up to your standard he shouldn't be placing caches? I've seen where that has gotten out of hand with some of the puzzle caches around here - every one has to be "new" and "creative" (you can't reuse an idea, that's old hat or as you would say "lame". How often is a Sodoko puzzle used any more? Too "lame.") - to the point where many of them are so obscure that without a nudge from the hider you can't solve it. Thanks for your well thought out comments Jester but you took that comment out of context and it does not reflect what I am trying to say, as you present it. All I have been suggesting is that we should encourage the development "a culture" of creativity, not mandate it. Nobody posting in this thread is trying to do that. I would really like to be clear about that. Geocaching has evolved in the past eight years into what it is today. So while citing “how it was” is an interesting history lesson, it’s really irrelevant to this discussion. When someone decides to hide a cache today, they have to start somewhere and there is emulation. Sure not every cache has to be new or creative (again nobody is saying that or condemning anyone's effort) but it almost seems to me that simple encouragement is being discouraged by you and others. Innovation is a key to the continued advancement of the game and trying to keep it where it was back in 2001 is not something I support. I think I am working from a disadvantage in some respects as I began Geocaching in an area where the standard that I speak of was already set. That is the culture that I learned to cache in and it is just understood that if you put a cache out, you are going to make it the best you can. No, not all of them are exceptional and there is no snobbishness, just friendly encouragement and pride. But the effort put forth does show. Coming from this reality, I'm not sure that I would have even liked the game you describe back in the day. As has been suggested by others, I would have found something else to do. When someone gets so upset that we encourage people to do better in this forum, it’s almost surreal to me. But in the end it makes me feel fortunate that I've had the experience that I have had. I wasn't trying to restate your position, just comment on how that I didn't have to imagine if the game was that way - that's how it was when I began. And it's basically the same today. Sticking a label on something, or someone, isn't the best way to have a discussion. Calling a cache 'lame' or someone as 'anti-creativity' can raise hackles and create defensive responses. Perhaps I owe you an apology Jester, this was your first post in this thread and I probably did some projecting and lumping in with some of the earlier discussion. I'm not trying trying to label you with anything but respect for your experience in the game. What I am asking you to understand is that what I am suggesting is not a change in the guidelines to mandate creativity. If you met me, you'd realize that the last thing a stranger would expect from me is an insult. I'd like to ask you a question since I have no experience in Geocaching when all it was as you describe. Do you feel like the game has improved as it relates specifically to the caches we find since then? You've already mentioned the puzzle people in your circle trying to outdo each other and how you feel that might be over the top. If we can agree that everyone influences their own geo-culture in the places where they live, do you find yourself discouraging people to follow this model or what advice to give a new cacher if given the opportunity?

I've followed this thread since the beginning, but stayed out of it (as much as I wanted to jump on one comment or another) - until now. This quote is just too funny, because it describes geocaching as it was in the beginning. I've been to many of the early caches - some because that's when I started, others because they are an interest of mine (why? I don't know, they just are. In fact, I started the first History Challenge cache). Let's see ... a cache at a wide spot in the road without anything else to recommend it (no view, history, hike, etc.); a cache at a freeway intersection out a way from most everything (including view, history, hikes and the like); a cache in the woods under one of countless bushes (I still haven't found the right one, I'll keep probing bushes. You can hike to this one, or drive within 100 yards); a cache in a ATV playground out in near desert (the only view is the noisy machines that may run you down get to the cache); a cache under a tree in range land just off a dirt road (careful what you sit on); a cache under a sage bush next to a quarry with a nice view (and sound) of the newer quarry just over there. These are all caches that were set up very early on - when the whole idea was to "hide something so it can be found". And when has a tolerance for ... let's see, how should I phrase this, hmm, you would probably say: "less creative" caches mean frowning on the use of creativity? If a hider doesn't have creativity and places a bland cache, because I (or anybody) don't condemn him for it that means I (or we) don't like/want (i.e. 'frown on') creativity??? Maybe that bland cache was the best he could do? So, because he isn't up to your standard he shouldn't be placing caches? I've seen where that has gotten out of hand with some of the puzzle caches around here - every one has to be "new" and "creative" (you can't reuse an idea, that's old hat or as you would say "lame". How often is a Sodoko puzzle used any more? Too "lame.") - to the point where many of them are so obscure that without a nudge from the hider you can't solve it. Thanks for your well thought out comments Jester but you took that comment out of context and it does not reflect what I am trying to say, as you present it. All I have been suggesting is that we should encourage the development "a culture" of creativity, not mandate it. Nobody posting in this thread is trying to do that. I would really like to be clear about that. Geocaching has evolved in the past eight years into what it is today. So while citing “how it was” is an interesting history lesson, it’s really irrelevant to this discussion. When someone decides to hide a cache today, they have to start somewhere and there is emulation. Sure not every cache has to be new or creative (again nobody is saying that or condemning anyone's effort) but it almost seems to me that simple encouragement is being discouraged by you and others. Innovation is a key to the continued advancement of the game and trying to keep it where it was back in 2001 is not something I support. I think I am working from a disadvantage in some respects as I began Geocaching in an area where the standard that I speak of was already set. That is the culture that I learned to cache in and it is just understood that if you put a cache out, you are going to make it the best you can. No, not all of them are exceptional and there is no snobbishness, just friendly encouragement and pride. But the effort put forth does show. Coming from this reality, I'm not sure that I would have even liked the game you describe back in the day. As has been suggested by others, I would have found something else to do. When someone gets so upset that we encourage people to do better in this forum, it’s almost surreal to me. But in the end it makes me feel fortunate that I've had the experience that I have had.

Perfectly said TTJ.

This is how you come off. All I have heard is that we encourage creativity, thought, and energy be put into hiding geocaches and you have done nothing but lament that idea. Are you against people improving and learning? That is the message you seem to be sending.

A silly game that does not encourage the use of creativity would not have appeal to me. Thankfully, to many it is more of a combination of show and tell and hide and seek. Ah ha! So you admit that we are thinking, intelligent, and self aware beings! Are you advocating that we keep those people away from Geocaching? Shoot if we let them in they might think up innovative fun caches for us to find. Perhaps we should go underground now?

"All use of effort or imagination is frowned upon?" Who are all these people who are frowning upon use of effort and imagination, TGB? I asked you that question earlier in this thread, after the first time you posted that claim. I asked for links. You still haven't provided any evidence of the existence of these creativity-haters. I know this is going to surprise you. But you seem to be the best available example. It seems that any mention of creativity throws the you and your henchmen into a complete hissy fit.

Works for me. The same advice applies when people criticize one’s finding preferences as well. Most folks pretty much mind their own business when it comes to caching preferences, understanding intuitively that there is no one 'correct' way to enjoy the hobby, and that each person’s aesthetic preference is unique. Nevertheless, it seems a few folks here and there can’t help but get into other people’s business, and they make it their own business to 'instruct' others how to cache with what they believe to be the 'correct' aesthetic preference. I’ve been using Team GeoBlast's advice for a long time. I do the same whether those folks are criticizing my cache hiding preferences of my cache finding preferences: I listen to their criticism, then I decide for myself what to heed and what to ignore. I’m pretty confident in the appropriateness of my own caching preferences; I therefore do a lot of ignoring. What I liked most was the amount of forethought and planning she was putting into her hide. I think it is great when people volunteer that kind of energy and hope that we can develop a culture that rewards and encourages that.

Why isn't "To find this cache" a good enough answer for you? Why does there HAVE to be some other reason at the cache location for a person to find the cache? I was thinkin' the same thing. I'm interested to hear an unentitled honest answer. <sound of crickets> Imagine Geocaching if this was all there was to it for a moment. A game that only encouraged you to hide something so it can be found. All use of effort or imagination is frowned upon. We would quite possibly have the world's silliest game.

Rustic Scout, Thank you for the effort and thought you are putting into your first hide! If everyone followed your lead, we would not being having this conversation right now. As far as the coords go, don't automatically assume you have a bad GPS unless it is broken. If you are marking a waypoint with an unobstructed sky, most GPS are created pretty equal. The best way to make sure you have accurate coords is to take several readings and average them out. Some models will do this for you automatically if you leave it on the spot, if yours doesn't, try this: Walk away 10 meters in each direction and return to take 10 readings or so. Go home and average all of those readings or if you get 4-5 that are the same, take that one. The true test is to return to the cache at another time and see how the coords work for you. Involving others is also helpful but later on you'll want your caching buddies to be hunters. Feel free to email me with any questions. TGB Thanks. I have to tell you that I have been waiting and waiting to post my first cache mainly because I don't want to have people complain about it. It can be a little intimidating to post a cache when you have never done it before. I am constantly seeing places that would make a great place for a cache, but I don't have all the right supplies first of all and second I just need to time to really get a good look at the area and see how it is during the day. I have been creating waypoints and I am at 17 waypoints for each of my first caches. I wanted to get to 20 and then make a more acurate average. My GPS isn't that bad, it does however lose reception when there is to much tree cover. Hopefully this x-mas I might be getting a better GPS. One thing you will learn here in the forums is that everyone has their own idea of caches that they like. Don't worry too much about people complaining about your cache, just do what you said you were going to do and pull the trigger. If someone complains, listen to what they have to say and judge for yourself if it makes sense for you. Nothing is permanent with a cache hide and you can make adjustments to if you think the feedback is valid.

I'll through in a yeah here too. If you cache in places like canyons or with a thick canopy, the 60cx or 60csx is a superior unit. That said, that was not the deciding factor for me. It was the rugged design. I'm hard on my gear and need things that can take a lickin.

I see where you are going with this and agree that this information would be valuable to some. I think the value of getting this information up front outweighs the fun added of withholding it. If you are caching with kids or adults who have a limit to how much caching they like to do, I think it is valuable for planning purposes to have a general idea of how long you are going to have to travel along with how far. I've also been on a multi-cache hunt where it was not clear if we were done or not as one finder couldn't find the next stage, assumed he was done and signed the piece of paper at the stage. On all my caches I try to give an estimate for the time of completion, and idea of where to park, where facilities can be found (if urban). People seem to appreciate that and it doesn't give too much away.

Yep.

Agree 100%. Earlier in this love fest we were talking about two bars for a Geocache. The first is a minimum standard that includes an appropriate container that is going to keep the elements out, maintenance of the container, consideration of safety for the seeker, an accurate terrain and difficulty rating, compliance with guidelines and so on. In the second bar there is subjectivity and people feel very differently about what makes a cache a good cache. I personally have no expectations, only hope. My hope is that the hider can answer one question and be proud of the answer: "Why am I bringing someone to this place?" After checking your profile a little closer, I feel safe to say that your answer to this question is more than a number. I think that is a good thing and I thank you for that.

News flash: I hide *all* my caches for the purpose of inflating other people's find counts. Find five of my caches, inflate your count by five. Caches are hidden in order to be found. And, my urban "tourist" micros are found a whole lot more often than my bushwack to the ammo box caches. If you are trying to define "numbers hider" as the type of person whose caches you will ignore (remember the thread topic?), then you'll need to be a bit more specific. I define a numbers hider as a terrible cache hider therefore I am on topic. Can I ask you a question now? Is there any difference in these logs: Log A: Between the two of us we finished the hunt in something like 2 ½ hours. I would still be out there if I was doing this alone. So many great stages to this cache. Any one of them would have made a fine standalone cache. Each stage presented a new and fresh look at geocaching. Needing a few special tools made it even more fun. I do not need much of a push to obtain a new toy. My guess is that we will get a chance to use them again. The final stage was more like digging up bella lugosi’s grave and having him say “Good Evening”. If you have not yet found this cache, why did you buy a GPS? Log B: Number 23 of 40 today. TFTC. ] If you are telling someone about Geocaching for the first time which log do you reference as an example? Which log represents Geocaching in a light that you prefer? Which log is going to be remembered by the seeker after 50 more finds? For me, the difference is quite clear and the benefits to the game overall are not even in question. I'm not sure how you guys can twist this around to be a bad thing, but you do.

Rustic Scout, Thank you for the effort and thought you are putting into your first hide! If everyone followed your lead, we would not being having this conversation right now. As far as the coords go, don't automatically assume you have a bad GPS unless it is broken. If you are marking a waypoint with an unobstructed sky, most GPS are created pretty equal. The best way to make sure you have accurate coords is to take several readings and average them out. Some models will do this for you automatically if you leave it on the spot, if yours doesn't, try this: Walk away 10 meters in each direction and return to take 10 readings or so. Go home and average all of those readings or if you get 4-5 that are the same, take that one. The true test is to return to the cache at another time and see how the coords work for you. Involving others is also helpful but later on you'll want your caching buddies to be hunters. Feel free to email me with any questions. TGB

"For the record." That sounds very official. What record? What is your criteria? What, exactly, is a "numbers hider?" KBI, I will answer this one question for you. A numbers hider is someone who hides caches with the sole or specific purpose of inflating find counts. If you want to me to respond to you further, you are going to need to convince me you are not just trolling. That you are not trying to twist this post into being about me and away from the subject at hand. I think if you will take the time to review your own posting, you asked me to do the same thing a few days ago. I currently see no evidence of you even remotely attempting to engage in an intelligent productive conversation. This is boring to me and to everyone reading this. Thank-you, TGB What do you mean by inflating find counts? If some one hide 100 micro they've hidden 100 micros. It's not as if the micro hiders are submitting bogus cache reports for caches they never hid. I presume that what you would really like is for all cache hiders to put a minimum amount of effort into hiding their caches. Perhaps Neos2's list would be better if it said that cache hiders should do one or more of the following when hiding a cache: * spend more than $10 on the cache container and swag * spend more that 1/2 day camouflaging your cache * hike more than one mile to the cache site * spend more than 1/2 day doing research to find a location that is historic * spend more than 1 hour getting permission for your hide * spend more than 10 minutes getting coordinates to ensure they are accurate * spend more than 30 minutes writing up the cache page At least then you are asking for actual effort from the hider instead of some subjective attribute of a cache that can't really be measured. The problem with any checklist is that it is going to be voluntary; there is no way you could expect cache reviewers to enforce it. Only the cache hider knows whether or not they spent the effort on their cache. Sorry, Toz. You'll need to call my henchmen.

I hear you Panchecos. If an area, any area, is populated with well maintained hides that are placed for purpose, it's good for the game. It's more fun. It's very simple to most.

"For the record." That sounds very official. What record? What is your criteria? What, exactly, is a "numbers hider?" KBI, I will answer this one question for you. A numbers hider is someone who hides caches with the sole or specific purpose of inflating find counts. If you want to me to respond to you further, you are going to need to convince me you are not just trolling. That you are not trying to twist this post into being about me and away from the subject at hand. I think if you will take the time to review your own posting, you asked me to do the same thing a few days ago. I currently see no evidence of you even remotely attempting to engage in an intelligent productive conversation. This is boring to me and to everyone reading this. Thank-you, TGB

Okay, that answers my question. Thank-you for your contribution to the game. For the record, you are not a numbers hider.

Bronzegoat, are you a numbers hider?

That would be a HUGE software change. I'd say the chance of that happening is about zero. Yes.. to both of the prior responses. You can do what you are setting out to do now with the information in the Silly POI Tricks thread. It is a bit involved but I have followed the instructions and have done it. The OP was even nice enough to answer a question for me. As for Garmin writing software to go paperless with a 60CSX, don't hold your breath. They want you to buy the latest and greatest hardware.