4wheelin_fool

Here is one: http://coord.info/GC5BTQJ It's probably on the ROW, but on privately owned property. The party that owns the lot likely is unaware of the cache, although the homeowner directly across the street is disturbed about people wandering around like mental patients. Should the cache be forced upon the neighborhood?

And thank you Infallible_ for your discussion bump! This has wandered from topic, "paying membership eletist?" Of primary focus is that all was well with geocaching before the advent of Premium Members Only caches. However, with the inauguration of Premium Member Only caches, this great sport increasingly suffers. Lines have been drawn up, Haves vs Have-Nots, and the more emboldened and self-anointed are quick to blame the other, further exasperating issues. Groundspeak created this obscene environment and they can fix it. It is significant that of all the benefits of Premium Membership, only Premium Membership Only caches ignite derision in the community. Remove PMO caches and there is no Divide. Here's a question for you... Would you purchase a Premium Membership if it offered everything it now does except Premium Members Only caches? The self anointed haves celebrated the obscene inauguration well before you joined. Perhaps you could post your views under your regular account? Otherwise it's an obvious poorly veiled attempt at drive by trolling.

You haven't logged any finds in 2 years and yet are complaining that there are PMO caches out there. Trackables are often left in PMO caches to prevent people from stealing them. Yes, there are people who drive fancy cars and have good jobs, but yet steal napkins from restaurants, as well as ketchup packets to empty into their ketchup bottles at home, and keep a McDonalds cup in their car for lifetime free refills. These probably are the same ones who steal trackables and coins because they are shiny.

A second class of geocachers for only $30 per year is a bit cheap. That's half a tank of gas, or less than $3 per month. This argument gets more and more comical every year. Essentially the site is communist based, with an infusion of capitalism to keep it running, and by definition capitalism is elitist. However I don't know how much elitist 60 cents per week is, but its not much. Nobody can find every cache, so why would anyone complain about the PMOs?

I think it's getting to the point where 90% of your posts contain the phrase "knickers in a twist". It appears that his knickers get into a twist when he senses that other people's knickers are in a twist. Didn't think that twisting knickers was a group activity.

We can all invent numbers And that's exactly what the thread is about. Actually the thread has to do with swapping containers Anyhow, there is no way I would believe that 30% of any population would cheat at anything. BTW I do not think that 70% would be considered a vast majority. With regard to high number cachers, I know quite a few cachers with more than 10,000 finds and most are extremely honest. They did not get high numbers by cheating or even concentrating on getting numbers. They get their numbers by their love of geocaching. Anyhow I just don't like people pointing fingers and shaming, especially without proof. So this is my final on this thread. . Well, someone said that cachers who did not want container swapping need to indicate it on their page, which would indicate the percentage was quite high. I also suppose the finger pointing and shaming would be fine for some, as long as the fingers were pointed at the "Puritans", and people were shamed for their "puritanical" views.

We can all invent numbers And that's exactly what the thread is about.

It goes by percentages. Suppose 5% of geocachers engage in cheesy activity, but 30% of number cachers do, that's six times the norm and enough for observers to label numbers cachers as purveyors of cheesy activity. However the vast majority of 70% do not do that, and would consider it an unfair label. Of course I don't know the actual numbers, but it seems right to me.

I think there's a group of people in this area who write "oink oink" in their FTF logs as a result of this thread now.

The best time to visit is around 9pm, when the homeowner's 20 year old daughter does her evening routine. Also when burying a 10 gallon bucket, the proper procedure is to dig a large hole as a ordinary resident and fill it with leaves, then return 5 years later as a geocacher and toss a micro at the bottom. After a few dozen finds announce your intention to take full advantage of the anomaly, placing the bucket in, pushing the dirt around it, and then change the size.

Such as an audible proximity alarm on the app? That would drive some people nuts.

It's a bastardized form of geocaching, deviating from a very simple process.

Generic cacher is doing a power trail and swapping containers. In the middle of the power trail is a cache that is not part of the trail. The cache is apperantly missing. (Perhaps a muggle cut the tie and stole the cache?) the generic cacher leaves the container from the powertrail in its place. (Possibly mistaking the this cache a part of the trail, since the container is missing he doesn't find it tied to a fence in a way that would obviously indicate it wasn't). But since it was a high number cacher, its much simpler to imagine that the wire was cut in order to not be slowed down. I am familiar with the incident, and if I'm not mistaken, there were not one or two containers ripped from their tether, but several. I know you live in an imaginary world filled with puritans, and villainous muggles who you believe just happened to vandalize them all at once, with the mighty power cachers riding in to save the day, but you need to step into reality. Yes, it's possible that a non cacher found several duct taped pill bottles tied to objects very close to a powertrail and decided to remove them all at the same time and kept the garbage as prizes, but not likely. I think you are now squarely in Alex Jones territory. What likely happened is that the team was running along smoothly like a well oiled sewing machine. Switch containers, run back to the car and open it, stamp it, while the driver heads to the next one. Switch containers, run back to the car, open and stamp it, while the driver heads to the next one. Then suddenly numnuts got out of the car and ran up to the cache with one in his hand, prestamped. When he saw it was tied down, he became suddenly mystified. What should I do? Sign the log? I have no pen, and the ink stamper is in the car. The horn honked because his allotted 5 seconds was used up burning his last brain cell thinking about it, so he ripped it away and cussed out the person who did it, and probably thought it was a joke, or thought he was making the world better for everyone. After that, ripping the next one away was much simpler, as he didn't think about it at all. If there was any type of language on the page asking not to switch containers, it would not have been noticed anyhow. This isn't brain surgery. This is a bastardized deviation of a very simple game.

I thought that thread got locked. Which thread was that? The one about trolling the forum with off topic posts? Here is the part you conveniently missed:

I don't know how bogus it would be if someone discovered a container from another hide with the logsheet intact. You certainly cant say that a muggle did it and someone else threw down a container if it's someone else's hide and logsheet. Don't need video evidence for the obvious.

The people arguing in favor of powertrails have always stated that they are not bothering anyone. It seems like they are starting to now. Hidden by sock accounts that log them as found under their regular account, and then maintained by finders without any type of continuum in the logs. If people are now cutting tethers on other hides nearby and the practice of swapping containers is so prevalent that notes are needed on cache pages to prevent it, I'd say that the two forms of geocaching are not compatible, and it appears that the "puritans" will have to deal with it until someone puts a stop to it.

I'm going to channel my inner Toz and answer your question thus: It doesn't matter. The find count is not a score. To paraphrase Jeremy, there's no need to get your knickers in a twist about what someone else considers a find. </toz> Mustn't mess with the magical names in the logs, or what will the puritans use as the scarlet letter to identify (and publicly shame) the sinners. So now these "cheaters" are also "puritans"? Exactly how does that work? Is there some hierarchical caste system present here? At the bottom are the couch potato loggers - the untouchables. At the top are the people that were present at all of their finds and signed the log. In the middle are the team players that split up and only visited a percentage of their logged finds. Some people have called the middle section "cheaters", and now you are calling them "puritans" if they happen to care about who is on the logsheet. I suppose a team of two people with each person visiting 50% of a powertrail would be higher up the ladder than 10 people who each only visited 10% of a powertrail? It seems to be also true for tree hides with 4 levels. The untouchable couch potatoes don't visit the cache at all. Then there are others that spot the cache from the ground and log a find without signing in. The next level are the ones that don't climb at all, but have someone log them in. At the top are the people that actually climbed The Puritans are also being castigated for shaming. The funny thing is that the word "Puritan" is a form of shaming. It may be meant in a playful manner, but it still is intended to segregate and separate cachers into different groups. Painting someone with the scarlet P for Puritan, isn't too much different as doing it with the scarlet C, for Cheating. At some point the realization may occur that the numbers really don't mean anything at all. There are no cheaters or puritans. Its just a game.

As I do for people who believe the names on the logsheet are magical. While I enjoy looking at the names of people who have signed the log before me at a non-generic cache, I can't imagine doing do for each cache on a powertrail. And if the logs got switched so that the names no longer accurately reflect who found the cache at this location, I certainly wouldn't get my knickers in a twist over it. I don't think that anyone believes the names are magical, and most people doing a powertrail don't really look at them. But some people do. Cacher XYZ decides that he's not going to bother with the switching containers, leapfrogging and other nonsense. Instead he just couch potato logs the entire series, and back dates it a few months. Then he brags about it at an event. CacherABC hears about it and gets irate. Yes CacherABC went out with 10 other people and split up, and only visited 10 percent of the locations, but he was there! CacherDEF finds out and gets mad also. He switched out all of the containers and added several throwdowns. Then cacher GHI gets wind of it and flies into a rage, why they leapfrogged, switched containers, and simply stuffed every hide with a new logsheet with their names preprinted, tossing out the old ones. But they were all there, sort of. Now what do you think these "cheaters" can do about the couch potato logging, as they ironically destroyed the evidence themselves?

Or maybe we could focus the discussion on responses that could stop the vandalism/theft by "power cachers" who swap containers indiscriminately. I hear that public shaming is back in fashion. The problem is that some are insisting that "power caching" is what needs shaming. There is no shame is enjoying going on a road trip with a group of friends and trying to find as many caches as possible. There is no shame in using certain tatics that some 'puritans' object to on certain series where cache owners accept these tatics. The problem is when those tatics cause additonal maintenace issues for cache owners or for cachers trying to enjoy a non-generic caching experience and a non-generic cache has been replaced or swapped with a generic cache. The issue should not be to criticize people because they do "power caching" or "speed caching", but to convince people that treating all caches as generic to justify these techniques results in in real problems. Clearly, the group in this case was willing to apologize that they didn't realize the caches weren't generic. That's a start. Now how to get groups like this to change their approach and rather than assuming caches are generic, assume that that cache are not generic and only use the tatics for caches they are certain are part of a series where the cache owner allows them. The problem is that there are no generic caches. The logsheet is supposed to indicate the finders of the cache, not just the last finder. Swapping them around to save an additional 15 seconds per cache is unacceptable, but seemingly becoming common. I know some people are desperate to impress others with high numbers, and I feel sorry for them.

What, did Toz hack your account? I don't know that you can compare cheating at a game to wearing a silly hat. No one is going to get ticked off if you wear a silly hat. The people who play said game fairly are going to get ticked off though. There's not a very strong argument for that cheating affecting others in Geocaching though, I'll admit. I once confronted a horrific cheater of the smartphone app Foursquare. In a bizarre recent twist, that app is no longer a "game", but that's besides the point. So I confront them, and they're all like, "Dude, it's just a game". And I'm all like "then why do you cheat at it every day for 2 years?". I never actually got an answer there. But there's a much stronger case for it affecting other players there. If you're familiar with how that used to work, several venues (stores and such) had their location moved to her apartment, because that's where all the daily check ins were coming from. I don't know if you can call it cheating. Since there is no winner, and the numbers don't mean too much of anything there is no way anyone can cheat. Calling it cheating is what fuels people to do it. Its the Charlie Sheen psychology of believing that they are winning somehow with a score. It could be described as asinine, stupid, silly, and cheesy, but cheating? No. The numbers mean nothing. Now if the people that are practicing this asinine, stupid, silly, and cheesy behavior start to do other things that annoy cache owners, there is the problem. Not with the asinine, stupid, silly, and cheesy behavior in itself, but the product of it. Many people practice the asinine, stupid, silly, and cheesy behavior without causing any problems whatsoever, and are still considered upstanding members in the community.

It's almost certainly not right. It's just a slanderous statement made with no evidence in a forum where the people in question are not active and cannot defend themselves. I have known Alamogul since 2002, and I cached with him several times during the early days. I don't have the same caching style as he does, and there are some things he does in his caching that I don't like (thowdowns and three-cache monte, for example). And I don't approve of his group having messed up a series, as described by the OP here, although from what I understand they apologized and made up. But I have never, ever seen any evidence that he does not visit the location of every cache he logs. Such an accusation is quite serious and would require some convincing evidence in order for me to even consider it. Unless somebody presents some evidence, you should take the claim for what it is: random unfounded slander. Point taken. I've never previously heard of this type of behaviour and didn't realise that the people mentioned in the OP were so well known and easily identifiable. If my question offended anyone I apologise. Given that there have been questions in these forums (in the Found It = Didn't Find it thread for example) as to whether it is correct to log a find when your friend climbed a tree to retrieve the cache, I was staggered that the possibility that splitting up should even be considered. I'm new to the game (2012) and come from an area where a power trail is 10 caches along a railway line. The first time I heard of someone who had found 200 caches in a day I was staggered. Anyway, I shall withdraw from this thread in order not to offend again Cheers Tony I don't know how slanderous it could be, but rather libelous. Don't know how libelous it could be either, as it's not a serious accusation of derogatory behavior as the practice is very common. Leaving throwdowns as litter is more serious of a charge, but probably ranks up there with publicly accusing someone of wearing a silly looking hat, or owning a ugly cat. Since there is no "winner", the find count is not important, nor either is it relevant how someone obtained it, as there can be no cheating by definition. Although there are those that take the game much too seriously, that only indicates an unhealthy obsession on their part and should not affect the definition of what it really is, which is only a game.

I suppose that someone that wasn't even there could claim finds also, and if they didn't know anyone in the group it might get a little dicey. The scenario of someone who visited only 1/8th of their claimed finds, complaining about another person who didn't find any. It's an odd mindset. Splitting up and doing whatever it takes at all costs to get the group name on all of the log sheets, when the next finders won't notice, and will likely shuffle the containers around and toss new ones down anyway.

That's what teamwork is all about. One for all and all for one. Why log as a team if there is no correlation between what the others are doing? Your find log is on the page based on the team name being present but suddenly you don't want to associate yourself with what happened. Someone needs to take responsibility over what occurred, and it seems to certainly be the team. It's rather annoying when experienced cachers behave like noobish teenagers. It should not be a defining factor of high numbers, as there are plenty of other high number cachers that don't do that, and don't want to be known for that. Then you should be blaming all cachers who log as Teams not just the NorCal. I mentioned they weren't the only Team out there as they were using group stamps too. To me it may have been some of their fault but I see it as they are pointing fingers just because WHO was in the Team. How do you know it wasn't the Team before them or after them? Did someone go out there as they did it to check or did they wait til after they logged the finds and a few other Teams with through after they did? It has been mentioned to me that cache containers from a Nevada Power Trails that had specific Logsheets printed up have been found clear across the country. Couldn't be NorCal since they were the ones who placed them in Nevada for a CO to help him out. The remaining containers were left with him for replacements. That is called Teamwork helping other cachers in need. Well now, with all the container switcharoo business going on, along with team logging, nobody really knows what happened? It makes a great case for condemning the entire practice, along with anyone who participates. Somebody did it, and if nobody likes finger pointing they need to all accept responsibility, rather than try to avoid it and pretend it never happened.

That's what teamwork is all about. One for all and all for one. Why log as a team if there is no correlation between what the others are doing? Your find log is on the page based on the team name being present but suddenly you don't want to associate yourself with what happened. Someone needs to take responsibility over what occurred, and it seems to certainly be the team. It's rather annoying when experienced cachers behave like noobish teenagers. It should not be a defining factor of high numbers, as there are plenty of other high number cachers that don't do that, and don't want to be known for that.

Seems to be true nowadays. Wait. Which thread is this?