knowschad

If you use Google's street view of those coords, you can see the actual headstone: http://tinyurl.com/oo2nghn

I don't know how many, either, but I do know that it is a real pain in the butt to try to "hide" a couple dozen messages. Best to not let them accumulate for very long before hiding.

I understand that you are only comparing the toxicity between DEET and permethrin, but I really don't even like to see them compared in that sense, because so many people already fail to understand that they are not even in the same class. Too many think that permethrin is simply an alternate repellant, which is far from the truth (although apparently permethrin will sometimes repel the insects... at least mosquitoes). But that isn't its primary strength and it isn't simply a matter of using one or the other.

Here is some info that might change your mind a bit. permathrin and the military Sounds to me a LOT safer that playing Russian roulette with Lyme disease! Didn't click the link but it doesn't matter. I've played in the woods all my life and i'm not going to change my ways. Sure, lyme disease is something to think about but there are a whole lot of other things that come with being out in the wild that can be more dangerous. Honestly, i know too many people that have some form of cancer and there's no doubt in my mind that products like these contribute to these diseases. Again, i'll take my chances with the ticks. Assuming that you grew up in Texas where you apparently now live, Lyme hasn't been a problem there for all of your life. I don't think that anybody is saying that it is 100% safe. One thing that *I* was saying though, is that it is important to follow the instructions. However, I'm sure we're not going to change your mind. You apparently are stuck on the notion that any chemical that you don't understand is a cancer risk. And I'm sure there is some wisdom in that sort of thinking. And the incidents of Lyme in Texas a much lower than in some other parts of the country. So... good luck! To my mind, though, it is akin to having unsafe sex because you're afraid of condoms.

Mostly, I find them to be very annoying and self-centered at best. But as others have pointed out, they do seem to have a following. But then, so did Mr. Ed.

Seriously? Where's the fun in that?

Hey, this is some very important stuff!!

Soaking in Permethrin. The cow is next.

Here is some info that might change your mind a bit. permathrin and the military Sounds to me a LOT safer that playing Russian roulette with Lyme disease! From the folks that brought you... AGENT ORANGE!!

Well, all I can tell you is, I DO spray when I get out of the truck just before heading into the woods. I don't think I've ever seen a tick on me when I do that, and I cache in an area where ticks seem to be waiting on every blade of grass... I didn't say that using it wet wouldn't work against ticks. I'm more concerned with what it is doing to you. I would strongly encourage you to read and follow the instructions.

Yes!! Good points (about fish & cats). Apparently it affects cold-blooded animals more than warm-blooded, which probably is why it affects cats more than dogs.

Permethrin is synthesized from the natural insecticide in marigolds. That by itself wouldn't be enough to give me warm fuzzies about it, but from what I've read, I'll take that risk over the risk of Lyme disease or other tick-born infections. The thing is, permethrin is actually a toxin to ticks, not merely a repellant. I have put live ticks on a piece of fabric inside of a circle that I had soaked with a DEET-based repellant and had them totally ignore it and walk right through it. If they tried that with permetrin-treated clothing, they would be dead. Wikipedia's entry on human toxicity of permethrin: https://en.wikipedia...#Human_exposure I'm just not keen on putting stuff like this on me. I have no idea what long term effects permethrin might have and i'm fairly certain no one else does either. I'll take my chances with the ticks. We just got back from an Arkansas trip where we hiked trails in some of the state parks. Needless to say, ticks, red bugs, and poison ivy were everywhere. Picked up plenty of ticks, have a teensy bit of itching from the red bugs, and so far, haven't had the pi break out. I figure this is just part of the overall experience. Have you known anybody that had a long-term case of Lyme? I have a friend that had an eye bulging out of its socket. I've known people that didn't go outdoors for years because of it... it hurt to move. It is some baaaad stuff. Suit yourself, of course, but know the risks. Long term effects of Lyme are well-known. I had a girlfriend who got Lyme and it messed her up so bad she ended up (along with other problems) Killing herself. The pesticide is much better then Lyme disease for sure! I have been doing pest and termite control for almost 17 years. I am in no way chemical shy but also have a bunch of exposure to it. That is the reason I don't really see myself wearing Perethrin soaked clothes. I am sure if you soak it in the stuff it would take more heat then a dryer to break it all down but was just trying to figure out what the OP might be worried about. For myself for tick control I spray my boots and outer pants with some deet spray before caching somewhere I think there might be ticks. If I know tick are there I might spray more of my clothes. Good point about boots. I also treat my boots with permethrin. You had a girlfriend that ended her life, you believe in part to Lyme disease, yet you resist the only effective known deterrent? Deet simply does not slow those parasites down. You can't repel them... they aren't smart enough. DEET works by messing with your CO2 signals when it comes to mosquitoes, but ticks simply climb upwards. To the top of grass, to your chest. CO2 doesn't seem to have as much to do with it as gravity does. The long term tests are in: Lyme: Extremely serious. Permethrin: Unknown. Of course, you may never be bitten by a Lyme (or Rocky Mountain Fever or other tick-borne disease) bearing tick if you wear Permethrim-treated clothing every time you're in tick country. So it really is impossible to weigh the risks completely. But me... I'm gonna take my chances with the marigolds.

Yep. I've learned the hard way that permethrin doesn't work so well when I just leave the can in the truck instead of actually spraying. Some folks around here virtually stop caching in the woods for the summer. I've got some caches that have been out for months with only one or two finders. I have always just sprayed clothes, boots, hat, pack and car seat just as I'm heading out. That professional treating idea looks interesting though... Whoah!!!! Leave the can in the TRUCK?!? Noooo!!! If you're even thinking that leaving the can in the truck is the problem, you are doing it wrong. Clothing needs to be pre-treated, and dried, before you ever get in the truck. The can stays home. You don't treat as you are heading out, either. The stuff needs to dry first. Before you use that professional treating link I posted, consider how many times a season you will actually launder the treated clothing vs. how long that clothing will really last. My personal estimate is that I will never, ever, ever, wash any of my clothing 70 times in its lifetime. Will you be washing them once a week? That would last almost a year and a half at that rate.

The first cache I went to, I came out of the woods with a tick on my jeans. The tick was dead. Like Mudfrog, I was a little concerned about a chemical that kills on contact. That is, you know, wearing it. But I've survived. So far, so good. It's great to be able to cache anywhere without having to "check for ticks", and not discovering wayward ticks days later most anywhere (car, sofa at home, etc.). I'm a tick magnet. I'm definitely sold on Permethin. It doesn't get sprayed on you, it's a dry material in the cloth. It's so much better than DEET at clearing ticks, I'm pretty sure it will be banned. So I'm stocking up. One problem with Permethrin is complacency. I never see a live tick anymore, so I'm tempted to go caching on a whim sometimes, in unPeremthrin clothes. Bad idea. The other problem is cache placement. No issue at all for me. But I get plenty of logs about how bad the ticks are. Around here, there are many mammals carrying ticks around to the branches and brush. We have deer and bear crossing our mowed yard regularly, and have had relatives pick up a tick once in a while just walking to the pool. - We tell 'em to stay on the sidewalk. Maybe they were thinking of grass clippings Now they know why I only wear treated clothes when out. Anywhere. I agree, DEET isn't happening here anymore. Multiple screen shields, fly lines, tent screens,(too long to list...) melts pretty-much anything plastic/rubber. A neighbor we cache with complained once that her new GPSr buttons were worn. Well yeah, we can smell all the DEET on ya. Mowed (short) grass is seldom a problem. Ticks are genetically "programmed" to climb upward, and they love to climb up tall grass and wait for prey to walk by. You don't generally get ticks in the woods... you get them in the tall grass on the way to or from the woods. They don't drop down on you... they climb up on you. Deet is a repellent. It works fairly well for mosquitoes... but it doesn't do much, if anything, for ticks. In my experience it is worthless for ticks.

I've been caching since 2004 and I started using the MC with no trauma or drama as soon as it appeared. I never commented on the original thread expressing the pain and horror caused by this feature, or on this one (until now) because the arguments seemed trivial and silly. I suspect there are a lot more folks out there who feel the same way. People who dislike a feature are always more verbal than those who either like it or are indifferent. How many messages have you got saved in the MC currently? Have you tried going back and looking for something in one of the older ones? This isn't simply angst about new technology... this is about functionality. Newer isn't necessarily bad, but it also isn't necessarily better.

Ummmm.... how do you think you get notified that you have a message in the Message Center? Via email. Oh, I see... you want notifications on your phone. Doesn't your phone's email give you notifications? Mine does. If you chose to not check your email, then that is your choice. That doesn't make the MC any better, does it? If so, I fail to see how.

I believe losing the email option is what most of us fear about this move. I know that I do. The email system that was implemented years ago here works just fine. I have no idea what those users that supposedly claimed that they needed a "better way to communicate" were thinking. We already have a better way.

Fair enough. I do know that I wasn't the only one to miss the humor in the reply, but that's the internet for you.

Permethrin is synthesized from the natural insecticide in marigolds. That by itself wouldn't be enough to give me warm fuzzies about it, but from what I've read, I'll take that risk over the risk of Lyme disease or other tick-born infections. The thing is, permethrin is actually a toxin to ticks, not merely a repellant. I have put live ticks on a piece of fabric inside of a circle that I had soaked with a DEET-based repellant and had them totally ignore it and walk right through it. If they tried that with permetrin-treated clothing, they would be dead. Wikipedia's entry on human toxicity of permethrin: https://en.wikipedia...#Human_exposure I'm just not keen on putting stuff like this on me. I have no idea what long term effects permethrin might have and i'm fairly certain no one else does either. I'll take my chances with the ticks. We just got back from an Arkansas trip where we hiked trails in some of the state parks. Needless to say, ticks, red bugs, and poison ivy were everywhere. Picked up plenty of ticks, have a teensy bit of itching from the red bugs, and so far, haven't had the pi break out. I figure this is just part of the overall experience. Have you known anybody that had a long-term case of Lyme? I have a friend that had an eye bulging out of its socket. I've known people that didn't go outdoors for years because of it... it hurt to move. It is some baaaad stuff. Suit yourself, of course, but know the risks. Long term effects of Lyme are well-known.

If the OP were to send out an email to every geocacher reminding them of the need for maintenance without first tidying up their own caches, I think it would be warranted. Some people would not recognize a tongue in the cheek if it licked them. Are you referring to the OP's tongue-in-cheek, or are you saying that Keystone's reply was that? Yes I'm sure that one was, not so sure about the other. Could just be me, I guess. Thanks for taking it so well, Rock Chalk!

To quote a flying pig: Now, for my opinion:

If the OP were to send out an email to every geocacher reminding them of the need for maintenance without first tidying up their own caches, I think it would be warranted. Some people would not recognize a tongue in the cheek if it licked them. Are you referring to the OP's tongue-in-cheek, or are you saying that Keystone's reply was that?

Permethrin is synthesized from the natural insecticide in marigolds. That by itself wouldn't be enough to give me warm fuzzies about it, but from what I've read, I'll take that risk over the risk of Lyme disease or other tick-born infections. The thing is, permethrin is actually a toxin to ticks, not merely a repellant. I have put live ticks on a piece of fabric inside of a circle that I had soaked with a DEET-based repellant and had them totally ignore it and walk right through it. If they tried that with permetrin-treated clothing, they would be dead. Wikipedia's entry on human toxicity of permethrin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permethrin#Human_exposure

According to the manufacturer, the agitation in water while washing does much more to reduce the effectiveness than the dryer does.

I didn't get it either. We posted at almost the same time, so you may have missed my summary in the post above yours.