Sadie

My point was that legally, they are most likely considered abandoned property...a point you seem unable to grasp. As far as my stuff, I do maintain my caches quite well. Have I had some stolen before? Yes. Would I call the cops? No, because I realize in a court of law they'd be considered abandoned property. That does not mean that you can come and take them. That would make me very cranky. You would not want to see me cranky. I would contend that since geocaches that are found, watched, maintained, and removed (by the cache owner when the situation calls for it) they are not abandoned. An item is considered abandoned when the owner has no intention of returning to it. Since there is sufficient proof that geocaches are visited by cache owners, you need to prove that "this" cache is abandoned and the cache owner has no intention of returning. You cannot assume it without due process. Otherwise we can assume that the bicycle you left in front of the mini mart is abandoned and although it is locked, you must have abandoned it and is free for the taking.

Do you have a citation for that alleged policy? Because I happen to know for a fact that at least one person was arrested, and had to appear in court, for pocketing a $3 toy in a Wal Mart. Unless things have changed in the last few years it depended on the store manager, one store I worked in was very aggressive towards shoplifters sometimes having as many as 3 LPOs on the floor at the same time, another store the manager had only one LPO go figure Makes sense. Some stores have more frequent occurrences of theft than other stores. The nice thing about corporate policy is that it gives the stare manager an opportunity to give an otherwise good kid to realize they made a bad judgement call. If they do it again, bring in the authorities.

Yet you seem to be unwilling to take any steps to prohibit theft. Right? No calls to authority. No reporting of the crime. No law enforcement response. No investigation. No arrest. No prosecution. Sounds a lot like consent to me. Perhaps you think theft should be decriminalized? Perhaps at a certain dollar amount? You artfully dodged the ammo can question, while citing that you were OK with the theft of a $4 hide-a-key. Is that the point where theft becomes OK to you? $4? Theft is never ok, regardless of the dollar amount. The issue in my mind is that the ends do not justify the means in this case. If all they are going to charge him with is the theft of a $4 magnet, then what's the point? If I stole a bag of candy from Walmart, I honestly don't think the time and effort would be worth it to prosecute the case. That doesn't mean stealing candy is right, just that the ends don't justify the means. Walmart seems to have set that threshhold at $20. That doesn't mean Walmart thinks stealing is ok as long as it's under $20, just that they will not prosecute anything under $20. Do you see the difference? Theft is theft and should be prosecuted. Otherwise, you are giving permission to steal. When Walmart does it, they do it for themselves. Some 12 yr old kid taking a candy bar and getting a sever butt chewing and pulling weeds for a month or two is sufficient punishment. We can play "what if" with Walmart all day. The bottom line is that they are a corporation. We are talking about police involvement and someone willfully and knowingly taking possession of an object that a person left at a location with the intention of returning. If you think they do not plan on returning, then you need to prove it and not pronounce it as if it were true. Walmart decides how to spend Walmart's money. My taxpayer dollars pay the police and the DA and I should have a right for them to protect my possessions, regardless of value. Walmart is not decideing how to spend my taxpayer dollars. If the Paul L. Repak is caught red handed with stolen property, then it needs to be dealt with accordingly. If he shows no remorse, then prosecute to the maximum extent. He needs to understand that what he did was wrong. If he doesn't understand it, then he needs to understand that if he takes something that belongs to someone else, then it will be dealt with. If we want to speculate, then lets speculate. In an earlier post, someone found a reference where our culprit runs a local "Leave No Trace" program. In other threads, it was discussed that Leave No Trace means exactly that... "NO TRACE". No trash, no footprints, no urine behind a tree, nothing. Let's assume he's an extremist and feels that all geocaches are litter. The unibomber thought his cause was worthy, so do the people that kill abortion doctors. Whether they are right or wrong is not the issue, it is still against the law. Breaking a law to support a cause is wrong. Find a different way. I am going to work on the assumption that Paul L. Repak is an extremist and feels that all geocaches are litter in the realm of Leave No Trace and feels that the theft of this magnetic Keyholder is justified to support his higher cause. If this is the case - I repeat, if this is the case, then it needs to be dealt with harshly. We aren't talking life term, I believe the maximum is a $250 fine, then it needs to be just that. At this time it is in the hands of th Judge and the DA to determine his motivation.

What of yours may we steal, then? Can I come over tonight and take your lawn sprinkler? Apparently you wouldn't attempt to do anything about it.Or, maybe I'll take your kid's bike. Its used... can't be worth all that much any more. Surely you wouldn't report that to the police... it would just be a waste of time and money. Apples and oranges. You speak of items actively used and possessed, while this case centers on what's basically abandoned property. I disagree, the geocaches placed cannot be assumed to be abandonded. Although some may fit thecriterai, they are supposed to be maintained, and most are. Because of this, they cannot be considered abandoned. Abandoned means "no intention of returning". I don't know the legal definition, but it is probably pretty close. If you park a $400 bicycle and walk inside a mini-mart to get a soda, is it abandoned? What if someone steals it? Yes, it is stupid to not lock it to something, but perhaps you left to chain on the dining room table. When you need a drink, you need a drink. No sense in dieing of dehydration over it. But... if it were your $400 bike, would you want the person prosecuted? If the DA said "it costs $1000 to prosecute and even more to keep then in jail" would you be OK with you if they walked away and stole someone else's bike? The point here is that laws are intended to deter theft. If we do not prosecute repetitive $5 theft, then we might as well make it legal. As far as Wal-mart, they make decisons for Wal-mart, not for society. Walmart make Walmart decisions. Our Governemt should

That's a good question. However, before geocaching how many people were messing with electrical equipment? So maybe in their minds it was something that they didn't need to spend extra money on to safeguard against. Also it's also a valid point as to how many people have been electrocuted. I tend to be proactive instead of reactive. So here's a question: If someone close to you got electrocuted and badly hurt by looking for a game piece in an electrical box what would you think? a) It's only one person that got shocked, so no biggie. b.) The cache didn't have permission and this shouldn't have happened. c) Why are we even messing around with hiding caches in electrical boxes when there are so many other places to hide a cache? d) Tough luck. The guy was a moron and survival of the fittest finally kicked in for him. Not seekeing a cache because of safety reasons is very understandable. Getting electrocuted by an electical box is a possiblitity as is getting bit by a poisonous snake or falling off a cliff. Perhaps getting hit by a car while slowing down to enter a parking lot where the cache is located. I would feel bad if any of these occured on any caches, whether I owned them or not. I would look more at things like defacing property or exposing folks to not obvious dangers, such as booby traps.

All these things said, acceptable on a personal level changes person to person. One could even draw a line between what is acceptable to a person who reads the forums and those that do not read the forums. So.. what is acceptable in the guidelines is described in the guidelines, with some clarifications discussed in the forums. I do have one question... if there is a true public concern about people getting electrocuted by touching one of these, wouldn't OSHA or public safety departments require that there be a fence around them? Sure, it's possible that you can get electrocuted, but then you can get hit by a bus or drown in a mud puddle. And I don't like sneaky hides in remote places (micro in the woods) either.

Every time I look at this thread I think of Roger Miller singing "King of the Road"

Are they premium members?

Cookies are good. Then we can use the frownie face for caches that the person has more than one found it/attended log.

I have also seen lots of caches published in illegal locations.

I was expecting a comment like "Dude, there's a string hanging out of your straw".

Rules like "No shirt, no service"?

If a person puts a teaspoon of tea (brewed) in a gallon of coffee (also in it's liquid brewed state), would the coffee be less than pure? Well, yes, of course. Would anyone notice? No, not likely Would anyone be bothered by it? Yes, a few, if they knew about it. Personally, I would rather enjoy my cup of [tainted] coffee while watching the sunrise instead of sitting behind the computer complaining about how tainted coffee is ruining the coffee industry and how nobody is able to enjoy good cup of coffee while watching the sunset. When add enough tea to my coffee such that it makes the taste difference noticeable, then I will complain. Have a great day!

Honk if you know what town this is near.

I am sure peanut butter jars are just fine if they are cleaned properly, like a good run through the dishwasher. However, if there was any residue from food (peanut butter or anything else) I would likely react to whatever growth came out of it. Plus the smell of rotting food and/or mold would be enough to turn my stomach.

A cache count can be completely accurate and still contain multiple Finds. There are many caches that are designed to be found multiple times, in many cases it is the intent of the cache placer that each time the cache is found the seekers log a "Found it", some common examples are moving caches, multiple target caches and recurring events that recycle the same cache page. Those who express the 1 GC#### = 1 Found Log standard are deliberately ignorant of the facts or they don't mind bracketing themselves with a rudimentary metric that controls and restricts the way geocaching can be enjoyed, they are free to wear that straightjacket but I don't have to, no one does. In my opinion the entire 1 GC#### = 1 Found Log camp is irrelevant and pushing that simplistic metric as a standard just underscores the fact that they really don't understand geocaching. There is no value in pushing a standard that makes no sense. There is no such thing as an "accurate" Find count, you can only apply a standard to the claims made by other geocachers. Even if you find them "wanting" the only thing they have failed to do is meet some arbitrary standard. The only standard that needs to be met on every cache hunt is the standard imposed by the cache owner, standards that others adopt can be safely ignored. The way I play this sport is that 1 GC#### = 1 Found it. If you refer to me as ignorant for that, then you need to look at that hand and think about where those other three fingers are pointing.

I agree. But under the condition that you either delete your previous "found it' log or convert them to notes. This way you would nothave multiple finds and cache count would remain accurate.

I'd think that qualifies him/her as an expert.... Some of the most self serving and WRONG logs I've read are from cachers who confuse their find count for wisdom and knowlege. In this case that particular cacher has shown they do know a little something by their contributions in the forums. That does not mean that the cache should just be archived without the follow through that courtesy, and the simple fact that the cache owner is the actual responsible party demands. So, next time you need your transmission fixed, take it to someone who only fixed 2 transmissions, not the guy who's fixed 5000 transmissions. yes, there is a "chance" that the person who lacks experience has the one and only solution to the issue, but this is not the case. Maybe you should do a bit more research before making that assumption. Looking at his profile, the person in question happens to have found some high terrain caches and has even placed some. In other words... get real.

I still have a problem with a table full of people that will openly berate cachers that don't cache their way, then whine in the forums when they are confronted. If that is what TRI-GO is about, then I can offer only my pity.

Sometimes you have to go down that hill if you want the truth. No one said it was pretty, but alot of us are tired of the false claims and accusations in the name of nicey nice. I don't recall you claiming it to be going down hill when the OP was taking pot shots at the members of a group (TRIGO) but when the members respond with fact about the incident it is considered going downhill? Sounds kind of biased to me. I didn't think the OP was talking about TRIGO but rather a handfull of self absorbed people. Now I know who he was talking about.

No, these situations are very rare and not typical of a normal cache event. The OP's discussion mentioned some very vocal microphobic cachers in that area who seem to have a narrow vision on what geocaching is all about. That is not the perspective of your normal "cache and let cache" attendee.

Pot, meet kettle.

Ouch! I suppose "these people" should be subject to some sort of genocide to rid the world of their substandard contributions?

OK, try this approach. It will help clear the LPC's off the "not found" list near home. Set up a PQ for micro's only and load up the GPS. Grab a designated driver and a bottle of <insert favorite brand of booze here> and a pen (no swag required) Play 80's music. (or disco if so inclined) Find a cache, take a swig. Repeat Bring friends.

Some of us enjoy the LPC as part of the outing. Running with the pack has a feeling all it's own and although we may enjoy others more, the LPCs are good also. One undertone I have seen through this entire thread is "LPC's suck because I like something else better". While others are saying "other things are great and LPC's are OK". So, just becasue some folks have a different point of view doesn't mean the others are wrong. Although the specific words are not there, it is still heard. In other words, we see "good, better, best" instead of "bad, OK, and good". Many folks seem to miss this. I find this post belittleing to folks that don't feel the same way that you do. Take off the blinders, you can see more that way. </rant> I could care less if you want to find them. The problem is that there is no easy way to filter them out. I can go to the library and pick out any book I want. Geocacaching is not like that. People keep hiding phonebooks all over the place it gets annoying because I don't find out until I've driven up them it over and over again. Although I agree that perhaps more can be done, the library doesn't do these things either. So, you must do the same type of things you would do in a library. It may not be exactly prallel, but it's close... If you like the author (cacher's placements) then seek books (caches) from that person. If you don't like short stories (micro's), then filter those out. Generally, they will be the same author (cacher) Use your ignore list. If you don't know the author (cacher) then you have to sample thier work before you can determine (pass judgement on) thier style. If they write the same romance novel (LPC) that others due, you can act accordingly. If the library does have a method of being able to accuratly forecast your specific tastes, then please fill me in. (Netflix has some fair methods as does Amazon, but Yahoo shopping is a bit weak in this area).