TL&MinBHIL

This sounds like something I'd be very interested in, but just FYI, it's no longer free (now $1). Is it worth it, have you found that it greatly increases the coords accuracy of a particular location? My experience has been that my Nexus One is about as accurate as my old yellow eTrex. I've heard that the iPhone 4 (but not earlier models) and many other Android phones have similar accuracy. There have been a lot of caches hidden with old yellow eTrex GPS receivers and other receivers of similar accuracy. It is certainly possible to get good coordinates on such a device, and to verify that those coordinates are accurate before using them. It is also possible to just push a button, get bad coordinates, and use those bad coordinates. I think you bring up an extremely valid point that I haven't seen discussed in these forums (not to say it hasn't been). What about all those people who have hidden caches with older or lesser quality GPSr's? If in fact the iPhone 4 (which I use) is as accurate as the eTrex you speak of, what's to say of all the people who used the eTrex to hide caches? No one here complains about the accuracy of THOSE, only of smartphones. I find my iPhone 4 to be quite accurate (for finding, I've yet to hide one). If I were to be very careful to get a reading as accurate as possible in order to hide one with my iPhone 4, how would that be any different than hiding one with a lesser capable or older hand held GPS unit that's no more accurate? It wouldn't be any different...other than the fact that using the iPhone to hide is definitely frowned upon whereas using equally accurate GPS is accepted.

Very well put.

I can't speak for the 3GS, but I've been caching with only my iPhone 4 (and the $10 Geo app) for almost a year now and I consider it quite accurate, easily in the 5-10 ft. range. It does struggle in heavily wooded areas, but even then it usually gets me within 20 ft. or so. Granted, the 4 does have better GPS functionality over the 3G & 3GS. Smartphone caching has its pros & cons, but I'm more than satisfied with it. I don't think they deserve the negativity they often receive here in the forums.

and if the difficulty is such.... a string of dnf's might be normal. I usually check the number of finds the DNF'er has. If they are quite experienced, then I would expect a quick check. It's a 1.5/1.5 small in a large evergreen tree, the kind large enough you can basically walk inside & get a good look around. One of the DNF's came from a group of 3 cachers (1 with over 10,000 finds & another with over 11,000). I may only have a couple hundred finds, but I don't consider myself a slouch. I just think 5 consecutive DNF's, regardless of how many finds the people have & the difficulty, is a red flag & warrants a visit from the CO. But like I said, this one doesn't perform maintenance checks often.

What's the general consensus on when a CO should perform a maintenance check after multiple DNF's? We looked for one a couple weekends ago that had 3 consecutive DNF's (one of which was a very prominent cacher with over 11 thousand finds) but I decided to try anyway. We became the 4th DNF and since then, there has been a 5th. So at what point should we expect a CO to come check to see if it's missing? Unfortunately this particular CO is notorious for NOT performing maintenance checks after multiple DNF's and logs notifying his logbooks are wet. He owns over 40 caches in at least counties and I think he has too many, too far away to realistically maintain.

You weren't the only one. We started caching today around 1:30 central. After we found 2 caches, I could no longer connect with the Geocaching app. I kept trying for about an hour while we did other things, but no luck. I tried restarting the app, rebooting my iPhone, restarting 3G & network data, logging out of geocaching.com and back in again...nothing worked. Didn't discover it was working again until we got home about 3 hours later (although it may have been working sooner than that). I don't think it was the phones, I assume it was a problem with geocaching servers.

I've had the 200MB/month data plan through AT&T for a year now and have never come close to my limit. Like you, if I access the web on my phone, 9 times out of 10 I'm connected to WiFi. I do surf the web on occasion when I'm out & about, usually to just look something up or send/receive email, but that doesn't use up much data at all. The most I've ever used in a month was nearly 150MB and that was when we were caching a lot last year on the weekends (Fri., Sat. & Sun. sometimes all day). But that was before I figured out that if you save caches to your favorites on the Geocaching app, you don't use any data to access them. So now, on average, I only usually use just over 100MB/month. So depending on your use, I would say 100MB/month could be pushing it, but if you use it like me, then 200 should work fine.

You own the cache, yes, but you do not own the site on which all of us submit our online logs. If they do not violate terms of use, they are not yours to do with as you please. It's not up to you how others log their finds. There's a huge difference between contacting a single cacher with kind intentions and admitting you'd like to start deleting log after log because they don't meet your standards. Smartphones don't create short logs, cachers that use them do. I'm a smartphone cacher and I enjoy telling of my experiences in most of my logs, so don't blame the device. I'm sure there are plenty who write short logs on their computers. Smartphones being used to cache are here to stay, doesn't do any good complaining about it...although I know it won't stop. What do you think it'd change by deleting logs? More than likely all you'd succeed in doing is angering a lot of cachers. You think cachers should log the way YOU want them to, so you're willing to delete the ones that don't meet your standards. Well maybe some cachers don't like a particular container you use. Maybe they should throw it away because you're not using something THEY prefer. You don't have a problem with copy/pasted logs. Short logs are disrespectful in your eyes, but writing a few sentences then copy/pasting them to dozens of your caches a single cacher finds in a day is ok with you. I'm sorry, but if one is bad, so is the other. I'm glad more newcomers DON'T read these forums. The negativity towards newbies and/or smartphone users is a big problem here and it runs the risk of chasing people away. I don't know, maybe that's what some people want. I suppose some cachers will never be satisfied unless everyone does things their way. Geocaching has obviously changed in recent years & it seems some aren't happy with it. I read all the time that in the past, cachers wrote long physical logs at the caches themselves. Well I often read through the larger logbooks and for years now, people have written just the date & username. Long before smartphones were added to the mix and it's done by long time cachers as well, so you can't blame newbies & smartphones for it. Newbies, short loggers & smartphone users are constantly being blamed for hurting the game, but do you honestly believe all the finger pointing & negativity is helping? I think it puts long time cachers in a negative light.

You can look through the Cool Cache Containers thread and maybe find some inspiration. Cool Cache Containers (CCC's)

Unfortunately, the term "lazy" is commonly used here to describe many caching behaviors that others don't approve of. Write a short log, lazy. Hide a micro instead of something bigger, lazy. Use "trash" as a cache container, lazy. If you ask me, it's just one person playing the game their own way, but if it's different, some label it laziness.

Just curious,how is putting a micro where there is a spot for a larger cache all about the numbers? It's one find whether it's a micro or an ammo can. Dont see how you run your numbers up there. Well, you probably got them there. What they're more likely talking about is hiding say a micro on a guardrail 25 feet from the parking coordinates, when they could have gone 500 feet down the trail and hidden a lock-n-lock or ammo can. Seen that more than a few times. I've also seen many o' micros hidden in spots where a larger trading cache could have easily been hidden. That, in most cases I've seen, appears to be simply because it cost next to nothing to put out a micro, as opposed to a trading and/or Travel Bug friendly cache. I couldn't care less about the swag and trading, but we do have these Travel Bug things floating around. A few million of them, I would imagine. But just because there's a spot big/good enough for a larger cache, why should one be hidden there? You could also say the same of the opposite...maybe there's a spot with an ammo can and some may think, This would have been a great spot for a micro. You may prefer walking 500 feet down the trail to find an ammo can, but others will prefer to find that micro. Personally I enjoy both types. There's been plenty of times when a fairly easy P&G micro was a welcome relief after bushwacking through dense overgrowth. And think of it this way, those micros on the guardrail 25 feet from parking give many people the opportunity to play who otherwise couldn't if it were hidden out in the woods or other areas inaccessible to them. It's all a matter of perception. Maybe it was just a plain ole lock n lock under a fallen tree (very common) but it was in a location with a great scenic view. Many times it's the location that makes it worthwhile. Or a dime a dozen tupperware container, but concealed with some great, creative camo. So it's possible for even the most common larger containers to make it a great experience. It's funny you say that because many of the "old timers" (in the forums at least) say the proliferation of micros is because of newcomers.

Good point, but they've got it covered. 6. On very rare occasions, Groundspeak makes an exception for a commercial cache. Arrangements are made before placement.

We've only come across a half dozen or so LPC's, one of which was a good sized container with room for swag. Two of them were the first 2 stages of a 3 part multi leading to a nice final cache, so that didn't bother me. The rest of the micros we've found haven't always been in the most spectacular of locations (some were very nice) but at least they were caches to be found. It's all about the fun of the hunt & family time for me. If it weren't for the micros, there'd be a lot less and we'd run out much sooner. Ughh. Talk about the pain of fitting a log sheet in one of em. Not as bad as trying to get the log sheet out.

If their intention is to use Geocaching as a tool to promote tourism within the county, then their agenda may be more business oriented (attracting people hoping they'll spend money within the county). If that's the case, which it isn't so far fetched to think it is, then you should point out to them that that's not really in the spirit of Geocaching. If they're not putting any effort into it and just dropping them willy-nilly here & there, then I'd say they could use a little help. Teach them how it's done properly and maybe they'll benefit from it. *in my best 'Field of Dreams' whispering voice* If they hide it, cachers will come. Added: Was looking through the Knowledge Books for something else and came across this. Might be worth noting since some of it may apply to your situation and you may be able to use it to strengthen your case. 4. Solicitation and Commercial Content 1. Geocaches do not solicit for any purpose. Geocaches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is intended to be a light and enjoyable family-friendly hobby, not a platform for an agenda. 2. Commercial caches are disallowed. As a general rule, reviewers will not publish cache pages that seem commercial. A commercial cache has one or more of the following characteristics: 1. It requires the finder to go inside a business, interact with employees and/or purchase a product or service. 2. It has overtones of advertising, marketing or promotion. 3. It contains links to businesses, commercial advertisers, charities, political agendas or social agendas. 4. It contains the logo of a business or organization, including non-profit organizations. 5. The name of a business or commercial product is on the cache page. 6. On very rare occasions, Groundspeak makes an exception for a commercial cache. Arrangements are made before placement. If your cache is commercial in any way, please contact Groundspeak for clarification about how to comply with cache listing guidelines. PS. Using an iPhone doesn't always = a brand new cacher. (I've been using one since we started last year)

To my recollection, I've only come across one that really fits this description. It was near a big lake, next to a tree where you could pull off the road and enter the hiking trails. It turned out to be a nano centrifuge tube hot glued to the underside of a beer bottle cap. The tube itself was jammed into the ground so all you could see is the bottle cap laying by the base of the tree. We couldn't find it until my g/f just happened to kick it. There's a garbage can at the head of the hiking trail about 50 ft. away, but this is so small, I'm sure most people won't even see it or think about throwing it away. I thought it was clever, but definitely a tad evil. I don't agree with someone making a container from "trash" and throwing it in a pile of trash to hide it, but if you can make a clever container from "trash" and hide it properly, I don't see the harm in it. Like the soda bottle the person described that was made to look like it has soda in it...I think that's quite clever. But a CO who chooses to do this should be well aware of the fact that it might get thrown away.

So do you have an unlocked iPhone? Because if you're on AT&T or Verizon, you HAVE TO HAVE a data plan with the iPhone. There are free apps such as MotionX GPS Lite that allow you to manually enter coordinates, but without data service, that app won't be able to display the maps. The full version of the official Geocaching iPhone app ($10) allows you to save a cache to your favorites and includes its maps, so you do not need a cell signal or data service to hunt for caches saved to your favorites. I might have misunderstood TeamGeo15, but just to clarify, you do not need to be a Premium Member in order to save caches to your favorites on the Geo app. Using Pocket Queries, yes, is a feature reserved for Prem. Members. If you plan on caching a lot, I'd recommend the full Geocaching app to anyone who caches with an iPhone. In my opinion it's well worth the money.

We've yet to cross paths with fellow cachers, but I'd like to. We found plenty that others have been to that same day and I always wonder by how long did we miss them. The closest we came (I think) was at a very secluded, small cemetery way out in the country. As we pulled in, someone was pulling out and the log was signed for that day. I'm guessing it was them. Not sure what I'll do or say when/if the time comes. If they're still searching, I'm thinking I won't join in the hunt because I'd feel like I'm stepping on their toes.

There's a CO in my area who seems to have difficulty grasping the concept of hints. They tend to refer to the area the cache is in and nothing to do with helping find the cache itself. For example, one near an airport says to keep your head down so you don't get hit by a plane. OK we get it, we're near an airport. But the cache is tacked to a random tree in a heavily wooded area. Another says to look for the stacked rocks. It's by a bridge in a rock field used to prevent erosion around & under the bridge. This rock field is about 50 ft. x 50 ft. The rocks are large & dumped everywhere so none of them look hand "stacked." The CO admits the coords were off at the time of hiding it so there's really no good reference to go from. We've tried twice without any luck. People who have found it seem to have stumbled upon it by luck. The CO recently performed maintenance and couldn't even find it, so they placed a new container. What was up with that advice? If we were in an accident, there's a chance they wouldn't be clean anymore. Like Bill Cosby used to say, "First you say it, then you do it."

There is a free version of the official Geocaching app (Geocaching Intro) but it only limits you to 3 nearby caches and if I remember correctly, you can't manually enter waypoints. I'll second the MotionX app. I used the free version back when I still used the Intro version of the Geocaching app and it does allow you to manually enter waypoint coordinates. It's fairly simple to use and I think would be a good choice for your event. MotionX GPS Lite: http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/motionx-gps-lite/id293935935?mt=8

It does appear the person who mentioned doing a "STF dance" was taking a bit of a shot at you, I can see where you're coming from. Maybe that person saw your dancing as gloating. If you ask me, you were tasteful noting your celebration. After all, it was your first FTF...it's good reason to be excited. I wouldn't worry much about that person. They recently logged a cache as Found, but didn't actually find it or sign the physical log. That's clearly against the rules. They noted that a truck was parked next to the cache location and after waiting 15 minutes without it leaving, they logged it as Found and moved on. If muggles keep us from finding a cache, it's up to us to come back later. If they're willing to log caches they don't actually find, they should be careful what they say to other cachers in their logs.

Welcome to the obsession, Molly. I discovered Geocaching on another forum, so that same day I signed up, did a search in my hometown thinking there surely weren't any around here (because it's a VERY small town) and was surprised to see 2 caches in town & others not far off. I picked up my son from school and away we went. That was last fall and we've been hooked ever since. Last year, before winter hit, we were going every weekend, Sat. & Sun. and many times Fri. after school too. We packed snacks & lunches and made a day of it. Best of all, we've discovered places and seen sites that we never knew existed. And none of them very far from home either. One of the more special places was about a 2 hour drive from home, a town we had never been to & never really heard of but simply picked out on the map. Come to find out, my great great grandparents lived there, my great great Grandpa helped build the bridge into town that still stands today, and my Grandpa grew up there. I also have family buried in the cemetery we Geocached in. Family history that I never knew until then. I plan to take a trip back soon to find my family's grave sites. All thanks to Geocaching. So good luck & enjoy!

Releasethedogs, is there an easy way to log a benchmark once you've found one? I came across one by accident while caching but when I look at the list of benchmarks in that area, I can't find its page to log it. I took a picture of it (a bench mark disk) but can't seem to match the numbers on the disk to ones on the list in that area. Are some just not listed on geocaching.com?

I'll adress the OP's question first, since that's what he/she came here for. I've seen plenty of people on here who recommend using a zip lock baggie. I haven't tried it, but from what I've read, it seems to work. Probably the best bet is a good quality tough case of some sort, if they make one for your particular model that is. A friend of mine recently gave me an Otterbox Defender Series for my iPhone 4 as a gift. We went hiking this past weekend and it rained all day. We weren't Geocaching, but I have cached in this same nature preserve where we hiked. I got my phone out several times to take pictures & there were plenty of times when raindrops fell directly on the screen cover. It didn't have a negative affect on it's touch capabilities and since the cover is built into the case itself, the phone was well protected. I looked and although Otterbox does make cases for several HTC models, they don't make one for the Wildfire. But I'd recommend finding a similar case that fits yours. They definitely come in handy. I guess there's always going to be the same crowd who's eager to tell smartphone users to just go out & buy a GPSr. Why is it as soon as someone asks a smartphone question, 5 more show up to tell them why a GPSr is better, but I've yet to read a thread where phone users advise people to go out & buy a smartphone to cache with instead of a traditional GPSr? I don't know what their hang up is over smartphone users & I probably never will. When answering questions pertaining to caching with a smartphone, I think it's safe to assume the person doesn't want to be told NOT to use it and to go out & get a GPS unit. I'm not going to tell a person not to bring their smartphone outdoors if they're trying to find a way to protect it. Either you have some advice on how to protect it or you don't. If you don't, move on, it's that simple. That's why they're here asking, to get advice from others who have been there, done that. The OP didn't ask which is more durable or more waterproof, so I'm not sure why people came on here touting one over the other. Yes, these smartphones can be fragile and they are expensive. That's why it's important to be careful & take precautions. I use an iPhone 4 to cache, I don't have a GPSr. If I did, I'd be just as careful with that as I am my iPhone. I've cached on all types of terrain...grass, pavement, dirt, mud, rocks, climbing up/down, hot/cold, you name it. It always got the job done so it seems like the right tool to me. As smartphone cachers, we know the risks of using one. We accept those risks, why can't you? If you don't want to use one, fine, I don't have a problem with that. But there are plenty of us who do use one and I'm happy to offer any advice I have. It's easy to say there are plenty of inexpensive GPSr's out there, but did you ever stop to think that maybe some people just can't afford one or just don't want one?

Sorry, I must have misread the other person's post. I thought they were referring to bashing smartphone users on the forum in general. I agree, it's not a problem in this thread. We're not referring to those who simply point out the cons of using smartphones to cache. I wasn't at least. I know my phone's limitations and I try to inform anyone new inquiring about using a phone to cache. What we're referring to are those who have an obvious negative attitude towards newbies & smartphone users. I saw it the first day I ever came to this forum. There are those who claim we are damaging the game in some way. Blaming us for every little problem they have with the game. Blaming us for recent changes they don't like. Things like that. I'll continue defending newbies & smartphone users because more often than not, as a group we're not the problem. I'm sure there have been some changes to the game in the last year or 2 and maybe (I say maybe) some of the "old timers" aren't fond of some of those changes & find it difficult to adjust to them. I can fully understand that, I truly can. But such negativity towards a small (but growing) group of cachers just because we use smartphones isn't getting them anywhere. Very true, but that's where planning comes into play. App users can map out where they want to go, which caches they want to hunt then save them to their favorites. Then we have access to all the information without requiring a cell signal. We can compose a log, save it, and send it later when we do have signal. I do this even when I know I'll be in an area with great signal because I have limited data and doing this saves me from using much of it. And just to add my 2 cents to what was being talked about with needing cell signal for GPS, I have the iPhone 4 and AT&T and I don't need cell signal to get an accurate GPS reading.

Maybe they don't want to be educated. I wouldn't even say they NEED to be educated. Excerpt from the Knowledge Books: 3.1. Logging of All Physical Geocaches Physical geocaches can be logged online as "Found" once the physical log has been signed. For physical caches all logging requirements beyond finding the geocache and signing the log are considered additional logging requirements (ALRs) and must be optional. Cache finders can choose whether or not to attempt or accomplish such tasks. "Educating" cachers on how to log implies an attempt to get them to log according to the rules, and rules clearly state logging online is optional. So you can call it an attempt to educate, but it's still an attempt to get other cachers to log in a manner you prefer. I'm not here to say whether a TFTC log is right or wrong or whether or not I agree with it. I'm just saying it's up to the individual cacher and it's not our place to tell them how they should log. Considering some of your other posts similar to this, I'm guessing your condescension & attempt at making others look foolish & unintelligent is intentional? To say you perceive a short log as lazy is to say you believe the one who created such a log to be lazy for doing it. I understand, do you?