TL&MinBHIL

I do not own a conventional GPS unit, we cache solely with my iPhone 4. I find it to be quite accurate. It consistently gets us within 5 ft. of the cache, oftentimes right on it. On a below average day, it's usually about 10 ft. It's far more than just an urban caching tool, as others like to claim. We live in a very rural area and often we're caching in wooded areas. It's true that it's accuracy drops in thicker woods, but it isn't as bad as others say, at least not for me. On a bad day, it still gets me within 20 ft. and that's easily manageable if you ask me. That's where experience comes into play. I have no doubt smartphones can be much more than "on the fly" caching tools and are good not only for finding nearby caches, but planning longer outings as well. No, they aren't as accurate as many high end GPSr's, but they are as accurate (and even more accurate) than many out there. Everyone gloats about the accuracy of their GPS units over smartphones...I hope they're accurate, that's their job. By themselves, smartphones are also not as durable as GPSr's, but that doesn't have to stop you. For the longest time all I had on mine was a basic hard plastic case with no screen protection. We caches all different terrains, it just takes a little extra care & precaution. But durability can be remedied with a tough case. I now have an Otterbox Defender series on mine and it makes a big difference as well as provides peace of mind. GPS units have a longer battery life, but we've cached all day with my iPhone...it just takes a little extra doing. Charge it between caches if possible. There are also cases you can buy with external battery packs on them that can practically double your phone's battery life. Hiding caches with accurate coordinates with a smartphone can be and has been accomplished time & time again. Let us not forget that many caches out there with bad coordinates have been hidden by handheld GPS units as well. Take your time, get more than one reading (there are apps that can average multiple readings into a more accurate one), and once you get your coords, treat it as if it were someone else's cache and "hunt" for it to ensure their accuracy. If they are off at the time it's published, I don't think it's the end of the world. Just be sure to correct them as soon as possible. Smartphone cachers will probably continue to take a lot of heat in here, a lot of it unjustified. Personally I think it has more to do with the individual than the device they use.

In the official Geocaching app for iPhone, the only way to enter coordinates manually is while navigating to a cache. On the cache's page, click on Navigate to Geocache. One on the map screen (or Compass view) click on the small flag icon at the top to enter coordinates manually.

I agree with Team Van Dyk. I realize I'm not a premium member, but I have bought the $10 app (which happens to be the most expensive app on my iPhone) and we invest our time & money into this hobby in other ways as well. The ability to use smartphones to cache has brought about a large increase in players, which in return has brought Groundspeak a large increase in revenue. You say smartphones are putting a strain on your system...I say use the added revenue from those smartphone users to beef up your system. I think this is an arrogant statement. What gives Groundspeak the right to determine how we, the smartphone owners, intend to use them? I do not own a handheld GPS unit and don't have any intentions to buy one. Therefore, I use my smartphone in ways that match GPSr users. I don't always use it to find nearby caches, I use it to plan routes & outings. You give us the option to save caches to our favorites. That right there shows me that even your (Groundspeak) intention is to give us the ability to use our smartphones for more than just finding nearby caches. It is up to us how we intend to your our phones to cache, not you. But if your going to limit our capabilities, then yeah, I suppose you do get to determine how they're used. I think the 50km/31 mi. radius is still too small. I live in a very rural area so it's easier for a cacher to find every cache in a 31 mile radius. Then I guess our only option is to A} drive further from home and search nearby or B} as you suggest, go to the map view and perform a new search in a different area. Thanks for adding the extra step (which is more of a work-around than a solution).

Like most in this thread, if we don't sign the log, it's a DNF for us. I know there are cachers who carry spare containers & logs and if they think they found the right location but not the cache itself, they'll put their own container & log there and count it as a Found. This isn't something I agree with because they didn't find the CO's cache. I don't need a find that bad...I can either come back or let it go. We did find a cache in pieces a few hundred feet from where it belonged. It had been hidden under a small walk bridge and washed down the ditch by floods. We just happened to find pieces of the container, a few toys and the logbook (which was surprisingly dry). So I signed it, gathered up what I could, and placed it back under the bridge. Since I signed it and knew we found it, I did count that one and created a NM. Even though the guidelines state you need to sign the physical logbook before logging a Found online, there are always going to be some who stretch the rules a bit.

Welcome to the obsession, wrongwayshorty, it sounds like you are off to a great start. I've been caching (along with my family) for a year now and have used my iPhone 4 the entire time. Even when the time comes that I can afford a handheld, I doubt I will because I've become so used to and thoroughly enjoy using the phone. As others have said, the full version was well worth the $10. If you haven't realized that yet, you will. Play around with saving caches to your favorites list. On each individual cache page, you have the option to "Add to Saved List." Once you click that, you pick which list to add it to (or create a new one) then you can choose which maps you'd like to save (street, satellite & topo). By saving caches to your favorites, it allows you to access each cache's information (description, recent logs, maps, etc.) without having to access the internet over the cell network. It's great in low signal areas but also helps conserve data if you have a limited data plan. Obviously if you choose to create a log and send it to Geocaching.com, it'll then connect to the net (if possible). But as Chief301 mentioned, you can "Save and Close" if you'd rather wait. As far as accuracy, I've read that the older iPhone models are less accurate than the iPhone 4, but as you've noticed, that doesn't have to be a deal breaker. These days when we pull up to the general location, I get a reading before even getting out of the car. Normally we're a few hundred feet away and I tend to give a general direction, the distance, and we pick where we think the cache will be (maybe a tree or a fence post). After awhile, you'll begin to recognize more common hiding places and be able to base your search on them. There's been plenty of times when my GPS just wasn't in the mood so I'd ask myself, Where would I hide it? And there it would be. So don't always expect your device to put you right on the cache every time. If it did, that would take a lot of the fun out of it for me. Get within 20 feet or so, put the device away and have a good look around. You sound like you're already have a lot of fun with it and I think it's safe to say it'll only get better. We've found so many great locations, many of which weren't too far from home. Some of them we've passed countless times and never realized what was hiding in plain sight. I even randomly picked a town on the map for a nice cache outing and it turns out I have some strong family history in that area. That was probably the greatest gift of all. All thanks to Geocaching. So good luck, have fun & happy hunting!

That is ideal habitat for poison ivy; along the edges of yards, tree lines, trails, etc. In the open, where grass is abundant, the grass will win out and keep poison ivy from taking root. Deeper into the woods, usually the poison ivy can't get enough sunlight, so it is less likely to grow under a thicker canopy (not to say it CAN'T grow there, because it can). So right along the edge, with plenty of sunlight and no grass to hinder its growth, is where it likes it best. If you know you've been exposed, try to get washed off within the next half hour. By then, the oils have soaked into your skin (I've even read after 15 minutes, its done its damage). If you use water, use cold water because warm/hot water will open up your pours and allow the oils to soak in faster. BUT, if you've already broke out into an itchy rash, washing it with hot water, as hot as you can stand, provides relief for a while. When I get it, I usually use the hot water after a shower, turn the cold completely off and spray the rash with hot. It first feels like an intense itching sensation, but that goes away and (at least for me) actually does provide some serious itch relief.

I agree, nicely said. I was just getting ready to mention that there are several great pinecone camo jobs in the cool cache container thread and people don't seem to be against them. I also agree with the person who said hiders use evergreens because they keep their foliage year round

Very well said, but unfortunately some will never be satisfied with the fact that a cacher took the time to go searching for their cache. If that doesn't make you happy, fine, don't be happy. Just don't think everyone should change their logging style to make you happy. This is the part where someone will look at my profile to see if I own any caches and dig through my logs to see if mine meet their standards. No I'm not a CO...yet. When I am, I know that there will be plenty of logs to read, not just short ones. If there aren't, then I'll still enjoy the fact that someone took the time during their cache outing to come find mine. My best advice for anyone in this forum, especially newcomers, is to never be discouraged by what you read here. The forum tends to be a fairly negative place if you're new to Geocaching. If you enjoy the hobby and plan on sticking with it, take from this forum what you want and what you need. There's some very useful information here, you just have to look. Learn from others, but understand that doesn't mean you have to be influenced to do it their way. We will always take sides on a matter based on our own opinions, but how you handle yourself is what's important.

Sounds like there's a good chance that cache is no longer in place. You may want to include what happened in your log, if you haven't already, to give the CO an idea of what probably happened to their cache if it's gone. May need to be archived if the manager has a problem with it. In today's abundantly high-tech world, there are plenty of youngsters who have no clue what a payphone looks like, let alone know how to use one. LOL She probably thought you were taking a bathroom break.

Groundspeak introduced Challenges. Thousands of people had a problem with Challenges, either as a whole or a certain aspect of it. So a large number of those people spoke up by voicing their opinions, concerns & dislikes in this forum and on Feedback. That's what the 2 services are for, right? Groundspeak listened and made a slight change, they separated the counts. It's a change I personally think is for the better. Why do so many of you have a problem with what happened here? Is it because you didn't get your way? It sure seems like it. Why not be angry with Groundspeak? They're the ones who changed it. No, instead you come here and insult those who think differently because you know a select group of cachers in this forum will back you up and there will be little to no consequence for your words. You talk about "tired old arguments"...what I find amusing is that so many people in this thread who are making fun of "whiners and complainers" are the very same people who, over & over again, complain about things like blank & short logs, something that GS has reiterated time after time is allowed. But that's not good enough, is it? If you can't get GS to change it to the way YOU want it, then you take it upon yourselves to gang up & bully people in this forum to play the way you play, log the way you log, and meet your own personal caching standards. Newcomers get such a bad impression of the caching community when they read this forum. I've heard it several times myself and noticed it right away when I first came here. Unfortunately it threatens to chase many away from this hobby and has accomplished just that with some. Good thing huh, because they were probably smartphone cachers who were just going to hide bad caches and create short logs anyway, right? You tell the ones who had a problem with Challenges to move on now that GS has made a decision. Has it occurred to you that maybe you should move on too? I'm just thankful most of the cachers in my area are nothing like what I see here.

Let's face it, newcomers do not corner the market on bad caches. That's why these threads never turn out well. You start off with legitimate complaints about one or more caches that just so happen to be owned by newbies. But then it always turns into nothing more than a vague generalization that all newbies can't do anything right. Everyone who complains about newbies somehow miraculously started caching as experts. Instead of putting them down, maybe help them correct what they're doing wrong. If you have one in your area that just can't seem to get it right, contact them and ask if they'd like help. Good coords can be achieved with a smartphone and not all bad coords were hidden with a phone. Could you imagine the backlash if as many threads started popping up bashing all the long time cachers who hide bad caches, even with GPSr's? I'm not saying all newbies are innocent, but you shouldn't assume that just because it's not right, it must have come from a new cacher.

The first LPC we ever found was on the edge of a parking lot far enough away from the building (a fairly busy restaurant) as to not cause too much of a stir. One advantage of being at the edge of the lot was that we were able to use our car to block what we were up to. Granted, they may not have placed it along the edge for that reason, but it worked. And if you're going to place them, it's definitely something to keep in mind. I don't mind them because it gives some people the opportunity to cache who may not be physically able to go elsewhere.

As we are new to geocaching, we were using an iPhone 4 with the Geocaching app on the Southern Gulf Islands (the ones in British Columbia between Vancouver and Victoria) a couple of weeks ago. Once we got out of a 3G cellular service area, the app was no longer usable. We also had data roaming turned off to avoid paying nearby expensive US cellular service charges. If you will always been in areas with good 3G cellular service, the iPhone 4 with an app will work fine. For areas outside of a cellular service area, look at satellite-based GPS like the Magellan or look at a Bad Elf for the iPhone/iPod Touch. My Bad Elf just made it through Canada Customs and is sitting at CanadaPost, ready to pickup and try out on my iPod touch 4G. B. You can use the iPhone app where there is no cell service, if you have saved the caches to the app beforehand. The iPhone 4 has a GPS chip and does not require network connectivity to navigate to caches. A PQ can be saved to the app just like to a GPS device, or you can select individual caches while searching from the app, for access later. +1 Most people who use a dedicated GPS device plan out their outings and enter caches into the device anyway, so doing it with a smartphone/app (saving it to the app's favorites) isn't any different. Not only does it allow you to cache in weak or no cell signal, it saves on data with limited plans. The fragile nature of a phone can be remedied with a tough case. I have an Otterbox Defender Series and I've dropped it on the ground, on concrete, and bumped it against trees or whatever while it was clipped to my belt. I'm not saying a smartphone is the superior caching tool, but I think it's better than its forum reputation leads you to believe.

iPhone 4 seems to work fine wrt the GPS when away from a network - put us right on top of a cache - literally - this week with no network coverage. Seems to work pretty well to me so far. Yep, I agree. And as far as the Geocaching app being useless without cell signal, that's untrue as well. Save the caches to your favorites and it saves the maps to the device. Then it doesn't require cellular data to display the maps. Just as it was designed to. I'll be the first person to inform someone interested in caching with a smartphone of the downsides of using one. But some of their biggest downfalls can be remedied. Inferior battery life compared to a GPSr -- external battery pack. More fragile than a GPSr -- tough case. Accuracy -- well I find my iPhone 4 to be quite accurate, but there are also external Bluetooth GPS receivers. It comes down to a matter of preference. I have no desire to switch to a GPSr or add one to augment the experience. I've proven to myself that my iPhone 4 is the perfect Geocaching tool for me.

I'd like to 2nd this. The 10 mile radius was introduced in a prior release and GS switched it to 50 (I think) after many of us voiced our dislike. WHY bring it back knowing how users feel about it and why try to sneak it in behind several other fixes without saying anything? I think that looks really bad on their part. It should have been included in the release notes. I don't know if this goes hand in hand with the 10 mile radius, but with 4.5.5 we can no longer view the "Next 30 Caches" in the list or map views. In map view, when clicking Search, our only option is "Search Again From Here." I reinstalled 4.5.2 to confirm that this latest update removes this feature. If we set our personal settings to view 30 caches at a time (or 10/20 if you set it as such), we should be shown 30 caches at a time. And be able to click through to the next nearest set of 30. I'm not always caching on the fly and able to see nearest caches in that given area. I plan a lot of my outings from home and use "Next 30 Caches" often. I'll be using 4.5.2 until this is addressed.

Although it's not surprising, I find it unnecessary that those who wanted completions to count as finds, after finding out Groundspeak's decision, now resort to saying things like, These people are just going to go complain about something else because they're never happy. How many of you saying that are going to go right back to complaining about smart phones and blank/short logs? If GS banned blank logs, you'd still have a problem with short ones. See what I'm getting at here? We're not all going to be happy with every single aspect of this hobby. According to Jeremy's statement, Challenge completions will have their own count right beside the traditional find count. Those participating in Challenges WILL have a count in order to view their accomplishments. It's not going away, just separating from the typical Found count. So isn't that a happy medium?

What about all the caches hidden with GPS devices that are lower-end or older models? There are plenty of accounts by cachers in this forum who have used both older and/or lower-end models of GPSr's and some of the newest smartphones. They can attest to the fact that many of today's smartphones are as accurate, and yes even more accurate. Smartphones take a beating in this forum, yet I haven't seen anyone discouraging the use of less accurate GPSr's. Dedicated GPS units can be just as inaccurate as what so many here claim smartphones are. Are they great at caching? I'm sure. Overall, do they tend to be more accurate, probably. I hope so because it's what they are designed to do, period. I've crossed paths with a cacher who was using one (not sure what model) and it lead him 40 ft. away from GZ. My iPhone 4 practically put me right on top of the cache. So there are going to be variations no matter what device you use. How accurate was the CO's device when they hid it? How accurate is your device looking for it? You have to factor in the variables of both device's accuracy/inaccuracy. My problem is that so many people are discouraged from using smartphones and what I want them to know is you CAN Geocache with a smartphone and be successful at it. I do and I find it to be quite accurate...well within the 20-30 ft. you mention. If someone WANTS to use a smartphone to cache, by all means do it. Countless times in this forum someone has asked about using one and every time a group of GPSr users tell them to go buy a GPSr. If they want to learn about caching with a smartphone alone, teach them the pros & cons of using one. If they're curious about both, I don't think the proper answer is to tell them not to buy the phone, buy the GPSr instead. Hiding a cache accurately with a smartphone is possible and from what I've read, happens all the time. It's not necessarily the device that causes all the problems, you have to take into account the person using it. You can't just walk up to a prospective location and use the first coords reading you get on a smartphone. Chances are good they'll be off because sometimes it has to "settle." So educating smartphone users how to properly hide a cache with accurate coords is a better choice than telling them not to do it at all. Maybe use more than one app. Use an app that takes a few readings then averages them into one, more accurate one. Take a reading, walk away, then return to see if you get the same reading. Act as the hunter and see if you can find it using the coords you think are correct. It can definitely be done. I cache solely with my iPhone 4 and I disagree with you wholeheartedly. It's GPS does not suck. Time after time it has put me on the cache or within 5-10 ft. of it. On a bad day, 10-20 ft. Many here have expressed that older iPhone models are less accurate, but I know first hand the iPhone 4 is a great and often accurate caching tool.

He attacked no person, but you did attack him..... and your last statement is pretty much ridiculous! I suppose I have to explain my words & clarify why I said what I did. In case you missed it, he implied those voicing out against Challenges are lazy because they don't want to do them because, according to him, Challenges take more work to complete. He referred to cachers as knuckleheads (although quite the timid insult, it's still an insult) and stagnant sticks in the mud. But you're right, he didn't attack anyone. If you consider pointing out his rude behavior towards other cachers an attack, so be it. Posting a TFTC log hurts no one. Disagreeing with how others play doesn't really hurt either. But when someone chooses to come onto this public forum and berate people who hold an opposing opinion, that does do harm. Hence my last statement.

I'd like to find your analogy amusing, but one has nothing to do with the other. Are we not actually caching if we don't make a find? If not, then what are we doing? A find is not a necessity of a caching outing. So if you're going to create a special day and want people to get out & go Geocaching, give a souvenir for caching on that day whether they make a find or not. A DNF is just as much proof of caching as a Found log.

First off, I want to confirm that you're using the Geocaching app. If so, are you using the free or full version? I don't know if this is why or not, it's been a long time since I used the free version. But it's possible the free does not have that feature. Also, are you using the most recent version of the app (v4.5.5)? I've had the orientation feature for a while, so it has been on earlier versions, but I can't remember if it was always there. This is the orientation button (red arrow):

You're using the Geocaching app, right? There is a map orientation button on the bottom left corner of the map view when navigating to a cache. If it shows "Off," your map will remain static. If you turn it On, it will orient itself in the direction you're traveling. I use the compass view more than the map when I'm getting close (let's say within 500 ft.), but that's just my own preference. I've read where others prefer the map view all the time and some even say they find it to be more accurate than the compass view. To each his own, I suppose. But in woods, where you can't get your bearings with the satellite map, the compass could work much better for you.

I did think it would show up right away. Back in July when we went on vacation to FL, we cached in each state on the trip and they appeared in my phone immediately after I logged a find in each state. But I'm not worried, it'll pop up eventually. When they first started them, it took forever to get my own state souvenir. My first one Sat. was a DNF so I went out of my way to try again and did get a find. Not that I HAD to have the souvenir, but I wanted it just to have something to show I cached on the special day. The facebook announcement did state we had to log a find or attend an event to get the souvenir, but I'm not so sure that's fair. If we go out caching but can't make a single find and have to log DNF's, are we not technically still caching? Of course we are. So if someone goes Geocaching on International Geocaching Day, shouldn't they get the souvenir regardless of Found or DNF?

I enjoyed how you embellished the process of completing Challenges over logging finds to suit your own little agenda. You conveniently left out the fact that those who log traditional caches can and have put as much (and more) work into doing so as completing Challenges. It's interesting how you talk down about "self-promoting stat sheets." Have you seen your own profile? You're the last person who should be patronizing self-promoting cachers. You sure do say a lot of things to insult this game & those who play it. "Stinking wet logsheet, inconsiderate cachers, silly tupperware under the bush, stupid box, knucklehead, sticks in the mud." You berate containers, locations, and cachers who play this game in a manner they see fit. If you despise such simple caches, that must mean you avoid them, right? Your stats say otherwise. Judging by your very words here, you don't seem too happy with Geocaching so why have you stuck with it for 3 years & nearly 500 finds? If it's such a miserable experience for you, move on. People in this forum have as much right to voice their opinions as you do. You're rude, condescending, and attack people for simply having a differing opinion than yours. You sir, do more harm to this game than every "TFTC" log combined.

What model iPhone do you have? Apple began putting GPS chips in the iPhone 3G and its accuracy got better with the 3GS and now 4. You won't be able to Geocache with the standard Google Maps app that's included on the iPhone. I suggest installing the Geocaching Intro app first, to get a feel for the app as well as get used to searching for a cache. The Intro app is free but only shows you the 3 closest caches to your current location. One you find one, it'll list another. I used it when I started and it's a good way to introduce yourself to the hobby to see if it's something you'll enjoy without having to spend any more money. I've noticed they updated it with sound & vibration when you're getting close to the cache. That's something the full version doesn't have. Obviously you'll need a good cell signal to be able to access the internet because the Intro version isn't able to save caches for offline use. The full version of the iPhone Geocaching app costs $10. If you find you enjoy caching, plan to stick with it, and will be using your iPhone to cache, I think it's well worth the money to buy the full app. With the full version, you can plan a route and save those caches to a favorites folder. You then have access to each cache (including descriptions, maps, past logs, etc.) offline so you can hunt without the need to access the internet. This also saves on data if you have a limited plan. I have the iPhone 4 and I find its GPS to be quite accurate while caching. But keep in mind that no device (smartphone or hand held GPS unit) will put you right on top of a cache every single time (although many times they do). They will get you to the general area, but it's up to us as cachers to make the find. For me, that's part of the fun. So good luck and I hope found this useful. You may want to start off searching for caches with an easier difficulty/terrain rating and bigger caches ("small" or larger). Below "smalls" are micros & nanos and can be quite difficult to find for beginners. Searching caches in your home area on geocaching.com allows you to view caches that are recommended for beginners. If there are any in your area, they'll be highlighted in green. Keep in mind, this is only when viewing them on the website. Here are the links to the 2 apps I mentioned... Geocaching Intro for iPhone: http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/geocaching-intro/id329541503?mt=8 Geocaching full version: http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/geocaching-intro/id329541503?mt=8

Wow, really? You're implying someone would be paying their entire smartphone bill just for geocaching? That's amazingly bad logic, as folks with smartphones typically use them for more than geocaching. When you figure out your own expenses for Geocaching, do you also roll in your entire electric bill, internet service bill, insurance/fuel/maintenance on your car, etc? To answer the OP directly -- yes, it's easy to be spoiled by the convenience of a smartphone, but there are some things a dedicated GPS do better. Most of those (better accuracy, better battery life, more rugged/weatherproof) matter more to a serious cacher/outdoorsy type. And sometimes also to the poseur who usually only goes for urban caches but would like to seem the more rugged sort. If you and/or your Mum are mainly out for urban caches and the occasional city park, a smartphone is a fine tool for geocaching and a lot of other activities. When you find yourself going further afield, you might find a solid dedicated GPS is helpful -- and you can still carry your smartphone loaded with cache data. Thank you, that's exactly the point I was going to make. To imply someone buys an expensive smartphone for the SOLE purpose of Geocaching is ridiculous. Clearly an agenda driven statement aimed at placing smartphones (as caching tools) in a negative light, although it's quite typical in this forum. I'd also like to add that his estimation of data plan costs is overinflated as well. During the time of unlimited data plans, both AT&T and Verizon offered theirs at $30/month, NOT $50. Now in the age of tiered data plans, you can get one for $15/mo., which is what I have through AT&T, and it's more than enough to cache with. But again, as we've pointed out, I didn't buy my iPhone 4 just to cache...and I'm not paying for a data plan just to cache. I'll be honest, I do take offense to your "serious cacher/outdoorsy type" comment. Oftentimes in this forum those of us who cache with smartphones are accused of not being "serious cachers" and I couldn't disagree more. My family & I may not have thousands of finds, we haven't placed our own cache (yet), and we don't get out and cache as much as we used to, but I still consider us successful cachers & serious about the hobby. We started about a year ago and are dedicated to sticking with it. Although things like rising gas prices & this wicked heat wave have slowed us down, we're still serious about continuing to play. We hunt for and find more than just "urban caches and the occasional city park." We may not cache in mountains or canyons (not many of those here in IL) but we're also not caching city slickers either. So as far as I'm concerned, a smartphone is a capable tool for the serious, outdoorsy type. It's no secret using smartphones to cache and cachers who use them get a bad rap here. It's unfortunate, but I've grown to accept it as part of this forum. But that doesn't mean I'll go quietly into the night.