The Herd

One way to find out for sure is to create that committee of geocachers that I spoke of and ASK them! I see a lot of speculation on this topic. The people of ACRES might just be more open minded than ya think. But you won't know unless you try. If the voice is loud enough, they won't have a choice but to listen. Thanks for your input on all of this Herd. I'm listening! Team Retriever, I agree with what you are saying...but should add...I think the key to contacting ACRES is to do so in a calm, thoughtout manner. I think they would probably listen A LOT better if they were approached by someone/s with a calm demeanor who is prepared in what they want to say.

RPW, Before some reads it wrong and flames on, I REALLY need to clear something up that you posted. I am sure it was just a mistype on your part, but, I feel it needs fixing none the less. I am NOT, nor is Brad, an ACRES board member. 13 months ago, I was living in Michigan, driving almost daily to come visit Brad. It came to our attention that Wing Haven was in need of a caretaker, and Brad asked for the opportunity to do so. They thought he would be the best match for the job/property. So, I moved down here to live with him. We are actually just caretakers of the property. Though, Brad doesn more of the "caretaking" than I do. Yes, we do work closely with ACRES, but, we have no say on final decisions. We can just try to influence them before hand...which, in this case had NO effect. (just wanted to make that clear...hehe!) Secondly...To say that ACRES doesn't want people visiting on their preserves is a little too much. I know first hand that ACRES preserves this land for people to enjoy. They do advertise, just not as much as a group with more money probably could. Most of their advertising is done by donations. (have you ever heard the land-trust radio spots...they are hilarious!!!!!!) I do believe that places like this receive more grants/funding/etc. if they have more visitors. As far as them putting this policy into place to discourage visitors...I just honestly don't think that is true. I think they just didn't realize the impact this would have on a LARGE group of people, as Brad and I were the only ones giving them feedback...and they just, well, missed on this one.

quote] ... We USUALLY sign the log book, but I have never put geocaching down as my reason for being there, so that may be why your book doesn't have any [signature of my personal name]. I was unsure if the ACRES people knew about the caches, so I just kept quiet and said we were there for hiking. ... Personally I act like "sandVB"; i.e., often sign the log book but then do not put down that I am at a preserve for Geocaching. In retrospect this is not a good idea If we want our voice to be heard then we should start speaking up. Not only at DNR or land trust board meetings but also "on the trail." It is our very anonominity that will doom us to be marginalized. From now on when I am at a preserve with a log book I will sign it "here for Geocaching" or, if the preserve does not have any cache in it, "would be here more often if there were Geocaches." I respectfully ask that the rest of Indiana Geocachers do the same. RPW, That's kinda what I was getting at when I wrote that. ACRES doesn't really know how many people visit their preserves because geocaching brought them there. I send them links to logs, tell them how many people attend events here, etc. but again, I am one voice. It's kinda too late now, but if everyone started signing that they were there to "geocache" then these types of places would have solid evidence of just how big of an impace geocaching has on their visitor counts. You just kinda wrote it out better than I did.

The second is from "sandVB" who wrote: Personally I act like "sandVB"; i.e., often sign the log book but then do not put down that I am at a preserve for Geocaching. In retrospect this is not a good idea If we want our voice to be heard then we should start speaking up. Not only at DNR or land trust board meetings but also "on the trail." It is our very anonominity that will doom us to be marginalized. From now on when I am at a preserve with a log book I will sign it "here for Geocaching" or, if the preserve does not have any cache in it, "would be here more often if there were Geocaches." I respectfully ask that the rest of Indiana Geocachers do the same. RPW, I am replying to your post in the other ACRES thread on this forum site. Amber

Just for clarification and consistency purposes: In Indiana, if it is not state dedicated, then it is not a nature preserve. People tend to throw this term around fairly loosely and there is nothing loose about it. Sorry, it is not my intention to nit-pick, but… BTW: Thanks for participating in the discussion. I realize that you do not speak for ACRES, nor are completely in the loop on this issue. I am too far way to be significantly impacted by this policy, but definately do not want to see it spread on to other land trusts within Indiana. Your insight will be helpful in now all of us interact with our local land trusts. Rupert.... Anything can be called a Nature Preserve, if they want to call it that. Where the confusion lies is in the State Dedicated part. By being State Dedicated, it means that the owners of that land must abide by IDNR policies. However, if it is NOT listed as a State Dedicated preserve, it is still a preserve, just isn't "controlled" by the IDNR. All Nature Preserve really means is that it is land that someone (owner) has decided to protect. Thank you for the thank you...though there isn't really much I can say in regards to ACRES, I can only state what I know. And, having worked with them for the past 13 months, I can agree with several earlier posts, including one of my own...they don't know your upset unless you tell them. People NEED to contact ACRES, and let them know how they feel about this policy. AFTER taking a deep breath! I can't say for sure it will get you anywhere, but you don't know unless you try! Doesn't mean you have to become a member just to contact them. Maybe some that are current members could contact them, and let them know that they WON'T be renewing their memberships, and tell them why!

Who is Tennyson Jelinek? What is his role? Is the seperate $10 going to support ACRES or going in this guys pocket? I believe the $10.00 is going to the person that is PERMITTING the caches. There is some paperwork/map study/other stuff I don't understand, involved with permitting caches on ACRES preserves, as MANY of them are State Dedicated. If they aren't totally dedicated, then certain acreage is, and I am sure it isn't easy figuring out what areas are dedicated, etc. Could be way off base, but this would be my guess...as it is listed as a "permitting fee"

Why does it seem to be such a GREAT mystery that "one of our own" is listed as a staff member? Look again, closely...it is actually "two of our own." Brad, and myself(Brad more than I). Yes, that's right, we are BOTH listed on the site. This has been public knowledge for the entire 13 months that we have lived in our home...which is on an ACRES property. For those that we didn't tell personally...it states so right here... WING HAVEN CACHE I see logs for many cachers posting in forums that "they can't believe a cacher is a member/staff/supporter of ACRES on this cache. Some of those same cachers recently attended the picnic we hosted here at our house. Just because Brad and I are caretakers for them, doesn't mean we agree/support all decisions made by them. Just because we are on the site, does NOT mean that we are the people behind this policy. Anyway....sorry to take the limelight but this mystery is solved....I "outed" us...a LONG time ago. I don't think boycotting ACRES is going to get you very far. Yes, it seems like the "thing to do" at the moment. But, honestly, geocachers are a VERY VERY tiny part of the people that visit ACRES preserves. They are an even smaller part of the people that pay to become members/donate money to them. I do stand by ACRES for all they have done to save/preserve some amazing land that otherwise would now be developed or destroyed. If it weren't for them, I wouldn't have the chance to live in the home I do, and raise my kids in the type of environment that I do. I will still pay my membership, not because I have to, (I don't HAVE to) but because I want my kids and grandkids to have places like these to visit when they come of age to...and not just because geocaching took them there. I find myself needing to remind myself often that cachers are NOT the only people that use these types of properties...we are probably the tiniest percent of users of Nature Preserves, state owned land. That being said...While I may not agree with the policy ACRES put into place...I am but one voice. I tried to get them to see things in a better light a long time ago. My one voice didn't work. Perhaps if, as stated by others, you made your voices heard as well, they may actually see the effect this is going to have on the visitor count to their preserves. If people would like to email me privately, I will make sure that each and every email is personally forwarded to the persons in charge of this whole thing. Of course, there is always the option of contacting them yourselves, either by visiting the office, making a call, or sending them a direct email. I really think that these types of actions will produce the best results. On a side note...Team GCHound...despite allegations that have been made on several sites recently, it is NOT a geocacher sending out these emails. At least, not that I am aware of! Amber...........one of "us" listed on the ACRES site.

Moving my post to the ACRES thread so as to avoid roaming "off topic"

When ACRES first asked us what we thought of caching in their preserves, I sent them links to several caches so they could see just how many people it brought in that would not have gone otherwise. I also sent them links to my cache everytime someone logged it, and told them about how many geocachers signed the registration box here. Everytime we cached at another ACRES property, we ALWAYS signed the registration form putting who we were, and why we were there. Unfortunatly, not many cachers did this. I don't know why they didn't take into notice how much good caching has done for their preserves. Maybe they did, and that is why they want the money. Maybe cachers said too many good things about it...and it backfired.

We were the hosts of the CITO at Pokagon State Park last year, and we had about 45 people turn out. I feel it was a GREAT success. We had a potluck lunch before we headed out and spent several hours pulling some VERY large junk out of a new area of the park. We ended up with an entire pickup trunk and a boat full of junk....yes, we pulled the boat out of the woods as well. I think you would have a good turnout if you give enough notice...don't forget to plan some sort of meal BEFORE you CITO, and get ahold of your local McDonalds for the drinks! Good Luck!

I unfortunatly, never had the chance to meet Sandy, but our names had crossed several times. It is a sad day when you lose anyone, and my thoughts are with her family and friends.

Sounds like an interesting study. You might consider the type of habitat that the cache is in. Because of the climate and growing conditions, alpine and desert areas are well known for taking longer to come back from disturbance than other types. Even forests differ in soil conditions, understory vegetation, and canopy species. Oak/hickory forests vs. beech/maple show differences in ground species (usually because of shade) that could have measurable social trail creation differences. I like the idea of comparing distances from cache to trail in different disturbance plots, seeing that is a major guideline in land agency geocache policies. Much of the ground disturbance is measured visually by looking at the area as a whole. Not everyone is a botanist, but it would be interesting to note specific species comeback. A few years after a cache is removed would show a good rebound in common, resilant plants such as virginia creeper, tick-trefoil, and mayapples. But, the cache that is placed in March may not consider that a rarer, say ladyslipper orchid, plant isn't going to come back once the first cacher compacts the soil that it was growing in.

We actually found one Saturday while looking for another cache. It was only about 10-15 feet from the coords listed, and didn't have a name on it, but it had a log book, and was full of trinkets, so, we thought it was the cache we were hunting. We got home and posted a find on it, then realized what we were actually hunting was a MICRO. We found a bucket. Owner of the micro deleted our log, and told us that what we found was actually a cache that was archived over a year ago! Well, I logged a find on the archived one....after all....I DID sign the log! Just sad that a cache was left archived in a cemetery for over a year!

Mine isn't "nature" related, but apperantly my puppy has been sneaking out of the fence and seeing other geocachers behind my back. This pic came up a few days ago in a log by a cacher visiting the cache in our front yard. I had NO idea anyone had been here....but...Dakota did. She LOVES people!

I think somewhere along the way someone forgot that PNC and I are NOT the same person, and therefore myself, and my event, got drug into something that I really wanted to stay out of. PNC has his own opinion, and what he posted is just that. Now, I also have heard the stories of people passing out drunk, people missing certain "events" because they were passed out, contests to see who could drink the most, etc. However, I was not there, and so I don't know what really happened. All I know are the stories I have been told, and NO, I will not post names out here in public, as some of these people are people I consider friends. I do realize that ADULTS consume alcohol, I enjoy it on occasion also, (not near as often as a few years ago...hehe) The problems I have with MWGB being held in a state park are these: first off, MWGB is held during their busiest camping time, so you would have to share the park with HUNDREDS of muggles, if you could even find a campground big enough for all the MWGBers! I know that most SPs fill up a year in advance in their busy season. I also know that as posted in the original post, it would effect the terrain around the area. Hundreds and Hundreds of cachers all converging on the caches in the park at once could cause serious damage, and would NOT look good in the eyes of the IDNR, despite what we as cachers may think. I know that a LOT of cachers have worked VERY hard to establish a good relationship with the IDNR, and I would be afraid of damaging that relationship in any way. I am sure they would be on stand by, just waiting for one little slip up. I vote for the Elkhart Fairgrounds....or any suitable fairground for that matter....no worries of muggles, no worries of damage to the land...(have you seen the ground after a fair??) and no worries of IDNR patrol standing by waiting for someone to slip. No, I have NOT been to a MWGB, doesn't mean I have not tried TO go. I want to, and would have, if work wouldn't have been so important. I think it would be a LOT of fun, and look forward to going in 2007!

Yes, feed the trolls! If the OP is that interested in park infractions and violations that were commited, he can ask. It is of no business to any but the planning committee. As for naming out names of those who commented... come on. My point being, I have heard enough that I would not recommend a state park. Point said, my opinion. Ross Camp would be a perfect venue. You'll love the alcohol policy there! Resorting to namecalling like well lets just say it isn't nice .. as far as alcohol goes well I have it by good authority that it exsists even at events such as the POKAGON CACHERS CAMPOUT at least last years event anyhow ...... Just my 2 cents , Star WHOOOOOOO.....Let me just say that, yes, there WAS alcohol at last years PCC, difference being, there were less than 140 cachers at the campout, and of those >140, only about 5 teams actually camped. There was NOT alcohol at the actual "event!" I would GREATLY appreciate it if my event was NOT compared to the MWGB, as they are two TOTALLY different types of events. And please note that while, yes, our event is "co-sponsored" by Pokagon Nature Center, all that basically means is that they donate the use of the shelter, saving me over $150.00, and they put on a program for us. Other than that, myself and "Paws" do all the work. I thought this was a thread about where to hold the 2007 MWGB, not one about who consumed alcohol where, and who didn't?!?

I didn't read ALL the details, but seems like a pretty good spot. 900 campsites SEEMS like enough, and I am sure with that many, they would have enough facilities.

I think 1markymark1 mentioned having a contact at Kruse...he was gonna try to look into it for a possible MWGB location. However, I seem to remember him saying he didn't think there were enough restrooms or showers or something like that. May want to get in touch with him about it. I read on an event page somewhere, however, that Ohio was going to "officially announce" their hosting of the 2007 MWGB. From the sounds of it, they already had full plans of hosting it.

About 99% of the transactions I handle at work have "caSH advances" on them. When this happens, we are SUPPOSED to write "caSH" on the top of the receipt that we keep. I catch myself MANY times a night writing "caCHE" on them...luckily, my boss is a cacher, so if it ever slips through, he would understand!

You forgot to thank us for "letting" you have it! See we were there, didn't log it when we saw the coin, then quickly hid in the bushes when you pulled in! Yeah, true story! lol

I've talked to Bret about his magnet thing, and he called it his new "babe magnet." Try as I may though, I have NEVER been able to get a magnet to stick to a pig. Then again, I have never met "babe" so I am not sure exactly what that pig is made out of.

The kids' favorite swag has remained to this day, swag from the tow RPW caches we were lucky enough to get a chance to do in Lafayette, IN. He did a GREAT job stocking those! My youngest one even got a new Barbie Doll out of one that she still has. My favorite was actually what we got from our 100th cache find. The owner takes all the swag out and fills it with homemade driftwood magnets with the cache name on them for the finders to take. It was a GREAT idea, and a great memento of our 100th find!

The official PCC '06 shirts are up and ready for sale! I hope everyone likes them, a lot of thought and work went into designing them! Hope all the attendees wear them!!!!!!! PCC '06 Shirt!

My wife put my caching shirt in a hole! dm That would be grounds for immediate dismissal from our home! Geesh, at least frame it and hang it with all the other geocaching momentos!!!!!!! That's *mementos Unless you would like some "Mo' Mentos!" Bret I did that for a reason. I knew you had been down lately, and correcting me ALWAYS makes you feel better...so...um...yeah, I meant to do that.... And, yes, as a matter of fact, I would like some Mo' Mentos....you can never have to many! And, I don't think you will laugh when you find out it was my black "cacher" shirt!!!

My wife put my caching shirt in a hole! dm That would be grounds for immediate dismissal from our home! Geesh, at least frame it and hang it with all the other geocaching momentos!!!!!!!