infiniteMPG

The issue is if people expect everyone to follow GC "guidelines" to the T when they themselves don't follow "laws" to the T....

236 with 218 active, several maintained by family/friends in another state. I used to have as many hides as finds, then half as many, but now I feel pretty saturated and pick new hides more carefully (because I know I have to maintain them). I normally average 2 evenings a week after work and maybe 2 lunchtimes each week doing maintenance runs. My weekends are usually spent playing. I feel if I own them, it's my responsibility to maintain them. The thing I like is the ones I hid during the infancy stages of my GC addiction seem a little tame now so when they go missing or need maintenance, I often work out new camo or a little new twist to improve the overall quality of the area caches. Some people love 'em.... some people hate 'em.... I like it that way.

But if you suddenly became aware that it was 50% fake logs and it was so transparent with the real loggings that no one really even noticed it, would you stop geocaching? Oh yeah, can we play thru? My buddy is a MLB pitcher and he can throw that golf ball a MILE!

I actually think that the flexibility, gray regions, and lack of hard line rules is part of the appeal of GC to many people.

My typing skills have improved 25%...

Yup, proves that *I* had rules for *MY* kids. Did not have *ANY* impact on *ANY* other kids in the sandbox. There was no universal sandbox rules that applied to everyone. And even with my rules, at times my kids got hurt, hurt someone else, and sometimes didn't have a lot of fun. But we kept going to the sandbox, kept playing, and no one felt degraded. "If you obey all the rules, you'll miss all the fun." ~Katherine Hepburn Do you ever break the posted speed limit? Do you ever not come to a complete stop before turing right on red? Do you ever fail to use your turn signal properly? And these aren't just rules. They're laws. Do you obey them 100% all the time?

Valid point as soon as you can prove that a fake log directly affects you.....

I re-read a bunch of the 29 pages and still can't find where anyone "defended" fake loggers. If someone is zooming by me 20mph over the speed limit and I just watch them pass and DON'T call the highway patrol, snap a picture of them and track them down so they get busted it does NOT mean I am "defending" them. I may be tolerating them, but I sure ain't "defending" them. The question still is if these fake logs degrade GC. And what does the fake log even have the potential of doing to affect any other cachers???? For example if you see someone found a cache and you go after it and don't find it and it's determined it's missing. If they wrote a fake log and the cache was gone BEFORE they logged it then you went after something that wasn't there. If they wrote a real log and the cache disappeared AFTER they found it then you went after something that wasn't there. Either way you did the same thing and had the same experience. And without the log book FROM the cache you have NO WAY TO PROVE THEY WROTE A FAKE LOG. And either way the problem was a missing cache!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And yes, I can see that as possibly happening. But have you NEVER had a DNF? When you had a DNF, did it degrade the game? If you didn't find it then you wouldn't know if it was missing or if you just COULD NOT FIND IT. Personally I might feel BETTER finding out the cache was MIA rather then thinking I failed at finding it. And if you invested a lot of time and effort into just ONE cache then yeah, it might inconvienience you but finding out if the last log entry was valid or not does not change the fact that you had a DNF and regardless of the reason it was missing, there is a missing cache you went after. Someone logging a find on the wrong cache could cause the same thing and I'd hate to think GC is so unstable that a mistaken log entry would cause the degredation of the game. But if you put that much effort into it and couldn't find it and it was there, would the game be degraded????? I just think the odds of a fake log affecting a cacher in this way are very remote and I don't see it affecting anyone any more then a regular ol' DNF. And other then a virtual, how can a fake log affect a regular cacher???? I mean outside of the number junkies who think they're in this to beat everyone else...

Why are rules needed if not competing? If everyone in a foresome of golf has different "rules" they use when counting penalty shots, moving obstacles in the putt line, grounding the club in the sand trap, dropping the ball after hitting it in the water, keeping score, and stuff like that, it doesn't affect anyone else in the foresome UNLESS they are competing. Not sure what sandbox your kids played at but mine didn't have the rules posted on them. Our rules were don't hurt, don't get hurt, have fun. And if any kid tried to push their rules on other kids they'd be eating that afore mentioned sand.

I would have to state that IMHO, GC is degraded more by cachers who do not put the effort forth to rehide a cache as it was found often causing it to be unnecessarily muggled, cachers who have no clue how to log or handle trackable items, cachers (and muggles) who steal things from caches (such as trackable items and geocoins), cachers who do not maintain damaged or missing caches that they own, and things along those lines... but I don't see an outcry for some action to be done about it. I would be more willing to put efforts into resolving these type issues with things like educating geocachers (both seekers and hiders) then I would be to put effort into tracking down someone who faked a log on a cache. These things directly affect the effort, expense and phsycal property of all owners of caches and trackable items where fake logs rarely have any direct affect and are mainly just an issue of pride in the purity of the game.

de·grade (d¹-gr³d“) tr.v. de·grad·ed, de·grad·ing, de·grades. 1. To reduce in grade, rank, or status; demote. 2. To lower in dignity; dishonor or disgrace. 3. To lower in moral or intellectual character; debase. 4. To reduce in worth or value. 5. To impair in physical structure or function. 6. Geology. To lower or wear by erosion or weathering. 7. To cause (an organic compound) to undergo degradation. --de·grad“er n. Guess I'd have to ask how fake logs degrade the game of geocaching any more then fake scores degrade the recreational game of golf or any other non-competitive activity? We spoke about problems they could cause in some remote circumstances and how owners would delete them if they were determined to be fake, but how does that degrade the game? Because everyone doesn't play perfectly????

I think a little temporary plastic surgery would deter them better Would that thing interfere with a GPS signal????

Very agreed upon except for the part about vomitting all over ourselves!!! But don't give up now... one more thread page and we'll match the number of pages to the introductory thread!!! 28 and counting.... hehehehe

Bringing up another potential topic, should be have a database or something tagged to a cacher's profile where cache owners can rank/rate/review a cacher... hmmmmmmmmm

Doesn't sound like they were experienced cache owners as I don't think any owner would appreciate any of those claims or actions. We have had caches in parks that the last log entry was something like : "The cache was located too far off the trail so we moved it to a more cacher friendly location". HUH?????????? And we're supposed to follow this and find it? PUH-lease....

I think that everyone is in agreement with GC defining a find as simply someone physically finding the cache and signing the log. The question here seems to be more of what extent an owner need to go to in order to determine if any and all logs are valid.

Great summation there! Sounds like good caching folks up in Jersey (in Florida now but originally from East Orange).

Don't you mean playing AGAINST someone else? The examples are fine for competitive games but geocaching is not a competitive sport or game, it's a recreational game. And for the most part cheating at geocaching is not much different then cheating on your score during a fun round of golf. Not the 'right' thing to do but it would be a rare case that it would hurt the game of golf. And if it didn't hurt anyone but made the golfer feel better about himself, then you could almost perceive it as a good thing (at least for them, and if it was like what we often see, it's a good laugh for us... another good thing). In those rare circumstances yes, but I don't think anyone will be convinced to go validate logs for the sake of validating logs. The earlier connection given about someone hunting an MIA cache that had a bogus log is still suspect as you could only 'assume' the log was bogus because without the actual log sheet you couldn't prove it didn't go missing after their log. I think everyone is in agreement that a posted find without a matching signed log would be deleted without question. What seems to be gray here is what extent people would go thru to determine that or even define that (some are against one person signing for the group when group caching or against people finding the cache without a GPSr). Even if I had several DNF's on a cache of mine and then someone posted a log stating only "TFTH" I might even write and ask "What was the condition of the hide since there were a bunch of DNF's?". If I didn't get an answer I expected a flag would go up. Everyone has things that would raise their personal red flags, but since every cache is unique (well, most of them are unique), and every cacher is unique, each and every hide/find/log needs to be evaluated on it's own merits and there will NEVER be a unified policy/rule/guideline to address them all the same.

I begged to differ for my circumstances, not yours. I have never had someone not change a log when requested and with +230 hides I have a few logs to deal with each and every day... as far as the fake logs that's another (long) thread so I'll not get into that here.

I beg to differ as I have had people correct logs when requested for many reasons : They put too much detail about the camo job in the log and gives it away totally to everyone else. They entered a DNF but the text said they enjoyed the find. They entered a find but the text said they will come back and try again at another time. They described their adventure but I could tell from the text they entered the log for the wrong cache. They entered a date of their find before the date the cache was hidden (wrong month or year or something obvious). Have yet to have anyone NOT fix a mistake. I guess it's all in how you approach someone. Then again, some of us are like the teachers we had who would point out you put your name in the wrong place on your 3 hour exam paper and allow us to fix it. And other are like the teachers who would rip your exam to pieces, throw it in the trash and fail you in the class because of it. I know which kind of teacher I'd rather be and rather have...

New GC# = new cache and new finds. I have several caches that have gone missing and thru experience I made them tougher camo jobs in the same basic location. Hated depriving all the people who found it before from experiencing a totally new camo job (and even if they found it before, it's a totally new hide) so I archive the old one and create a new one. Nothing wrong with that and if you want to make it a challenge again for people who found it before, change the hide a bit so they're caught off guard

And I must admit I really like your forum icon

I think it's pretty much of a challenge signing the log when you forgot your pen a dozen miles away in the car.... Hmmm, a multi cache that can be done without a GPSr.... I see a new cache on the horizon.... hehehee

For all practical purposed NO geocache was ever found WITH a GPSr, they are found by the geocachers! And yes, the GPSr (or map or stars or tarot cards or etc) only gets you close. That's why a cache will have 10 finds then a DNF and then 2 finds and then a DNF and then 5 finds and a DNF when everyone is using a GPSr.... because the GPS only got them close. The geocachers are what found the find "Where you are the search engine"....

LOL... much in the same way using a marine navigational GPS isn't valid to use to find a land based cache with....