infiniteMPG

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA.... GOOD ONE! The Marshalls on the course couldn't give a flying cr@p about the intergrity of the game of golf. He cares about his job which is to protect the property of the golf course. That Marshall would stand and watch you take 20 drops beside a water hazard, help you write in a low score, laugh when you yelled when your buddy was putting, and all without whispering a word (as long as you weren't holding up his paying customers) but drive your cart on his green and he'll go ballistic on you. Trust me, I know a few, and the rules and integrity of golf are VERY FAR DOWN his list of priorities.

Quite true... everyone knows it's squirells that degrade caching... if they throw my waterproof match container out of that tree hole again I'm going hunting!

What problem? If it didn't affect another else directly and the log entires looked valid, what problem would it pose? I doubt a very big percentage of well hidden caches go missing so the chances of crossing a fake log with a missing cache that doesn't have a responsible owner checking on it is pretty dang slim. Going back to the closest analogy, I'd bet that 90% or more of recreational golfers cheat the rules in some way or another and I'd bet you'd be hard pressed to find one in the millions of golfers who would state that this cheating has degraded the game of golf in any way.

T.M.I..... totally T.M.I..... hehehehe

I would think that the percentage of this would be somewhere around the inperceivable range. The example everyone keeps using is flawed, badly flawed, and no one seems to pick up on it. As stated several times before but for some reason overlooked, if someone posts a find to a cache and then another cacher goes to find it, they have no way to know if they just couldn't find it (DNF) or if it is missing. If it's determined at a later time it was missing, there is NO WAY to prove it went missing BEFORE rather then AFTER the last person entered a find. If the cache is MISSING the log book is GONE so there is no proof. So how do you determine the cache was gone prior to their visit?????? So if it went missing AFTER they found it rather then BEFORE, is your experience ANY DIFFERENT???? No! There was only ONE example of this given in the last 31 pages and even that was stated that there was a possibility that it went missing AFTER the last person logged the find so throw it out!!!! No admissable evidence. If this "possible" situation is the only evidence given that a fake log affects other cachers then I think Signal the Judge would be throwing the case out with yesterday's trash and we have nothing showing fake logs do anything bad for geocaching other then impacting the purity and honesty of the game and it's players....

There are tons of different GPSr units out there and it sometimes seems like those with the most "play money" (i.e. can afford the most accurate GPSr) have the biggest advantage when caching. What GPS do you own and what do you feel are the biggest advantages/disadvantages of it? I have a Garmin GPS MAP60C (and wish I had the CSX as I have City Navigator and are limited on the mapsets I can load). It is okay but seems to bounce a lot. A friend has a Magellin and states that he can load a bunch of geocaching data on his GPSr. I am limited to the text I can load with a cache and rely on my Palm TX to get me by. And also do you feel at a disadvantage when caching in a group and someone has a more precise read on the hide? Do you think well tuned geosenses make up for GPSr inaccuracies?

Never too late for another analogy.... or another beer. A big problem but also a competitive sport where teams are trying to win, players are trying to earn million$, and owners are trying to make their mark in the financial world. Might be unbelievable steroid use in recreational baseball and softball but I doubt you'll ever hear about it and doubt it causes much problem beyond some shrinkage issues at home

It means that we either deal with them as best we can or let them run us over and make every day of our existence miserable. Our choice. When my kids smacked each other the answer was normally the truth... even if that was simply "because I felt like it". If they were hitting each other, hurting someone or something, I dealt with it. If they were in their room beating up their pillow and not harming a thing I'd just shrug my shoulders and keep on walking. No harm, no foul. I'm not condoning falsifying logs, but if they're not causing harm then I'm not going to put a lot into dealing with them. Too much other fun stuff to do rather then fight for the purity of GC....

My mistake as I am at work and just bounced over the to the GC website and didn't notice the number was for people who logged in the past week. My point was there is a load of geocachers (and the bigger the number the better for the point) and in any large group of people you will have some who enjoy bending/breaking the rules if for no other reason just to do it... just something we have to deal with and even in a police state that will happen. So unless fake logs cause direct problems for people I think it's just a fact of GC life that we need to deal with as we will never completely stop it. And to me just their existence is not reason enough to put a lot of effort into dealing with them until they directly cause problems. If I stumble across them, fine. If they're pointed out to me, fine. But to go on a crusade after them... no way. And since I don't see GC even posting how or why anyone enters info on the log page for a geocache I sure don't see their mere existence causing a degradation of geocaching. Is it beer:30 yet...?

About there being more then 42K cachers? Heck yeah! And as with any group of a quarter million or so people, I think you can pretty much count on some of them being the types that will break the rules in ways we can't even imgine. Just a fact of the human life experience, accept it or pick a different critter to be... As soon as we make a system that is perfectly idiot-proof, someone will come along and invent a perfect idiot....

Actually according to GPS games by mid-2003 there were over 150,000 registered geocachers and over 7,200 paid subscriptions. http://geocaching.gpsgames.org/history/ I think there may of been a few dozen more people register in the last 5 years....

I think on the playground that is always the rule... but if you watched my daughter play you'd know they don't have to be the biggest kid to practice that

Hmmm, if you take it out of gear and push it then it will also move. But if you're talking about how to move your car by virtue of the engine's power then I think you can follow the rules and guidelines in your owner's manual. But I really don't think bringing up a mechanical functionality situation is analogous to what someone does or doesn't do prior to typing something on their computer. How can anyone complain that clicking the FOUND IT button and entering information on a geocache webpage on the GC website is degrading the game of GC when the game of GC doesn't have any rules or guidelines controlling what someone has to do in order to do this?

Then I guess I'd have to ask where it states you have to physically find a cache to enter a log on the GC website...

Touche.... Since no where on the GC it states anything like "When you reach 500 finds you will be listed as a Mega-Cacher and at 1,000 finds you will be a Master Cacher" GC understands that the numbers are meaningless and carry no weight except to those who challenge themselves. It's a blog, hook, line and sinker.... No merit badges, no rewards, just the personal pride of meeting the challenge the owners place out in the world and the fun of crossing paths with a great bunch of people. If someone wants to cheat themselves out of that, they're already a looser....

The Marshall had one goal in mind, protecting the financial interest for the golf course and keep play flowing and not allowing anything that would keep people from returning to add to the course's bank account. If he witnessed it or it was reported to him he would do soemthing about it, if not he'd never know. And if it was bad enough he would kick people out. But the golf course would not be putting a Marshall in every cart to assure that breaking of the rules never happens nor would they make it so hard nosed that if you did break the rules you'd be kicked out, people would find another course to play on and give their money to... .....in other words he is solely there for the protection of the golf course's property and financial welbeing and not there one spec for the prtotection of the sanctity of the game of golf (and couldn't care less about the rules, either).

If you were a puritan at golf and played without sparing a single penalty stroke or even bending a rule, would you still enjoy playing if every other person playing before you and after you cheated their score and didn't follow the rules? If it even was a problem, the only thing that could be done to prevent false logs would be to put more requirements on the cachers and on the owners like a code or something verifiable, but even that could be shared and cheated around (and definitely would be by some). You will never stop it any more then the music industry can stop copying MP3's and they spend billion$ trying. Geocaching is not being degraded by fake logs, they're just part of the dark side of GC that we owners have to deal with as we run across them, just like we do with un-hid containers, damaged caches, full logs, weather, wet contents, missing tracklables, muggled caches, construction, and other things like that. None degrade caching any more then any others, dealing with them is part of maintenance. And just like any of the others, the owners have the right to deal with these as they see fit.

If you were a puritan at golf and played without sparing a single penalty stroke or even bending a rule, would you still enjoy playing if every other person playing before you and after you cheated their score and didn't follow the rules? If it even was a problem, the only thing that could be done to prevent false logs would be to put more requirements on the cachers and on the owners like a code or something verifiable, but even that could be shared and cheated around (and definitely would be by some). You will never stop it any more then the music industry can stop copying MP3's and they spend billion$ trying. Geocaching is not being degraded by fake logs, they're just part of the dark side of GC that we owners have to deal with as we run across them, just like we do with un-hid containers, damaged caches, full logs, weather, wet contents, missing tracklables, muggled caches, construction, and other things like that. None degrade caching any more then any others, dealing with them is part of maintenance. And just like any of the others, the owners have the right to deal with these as they see fit.

Therefore, the rules are very simple:- Take something from the cache - Leave something in the cache - Write about it in the logbook I think we're defining a fake log as a log entered on the website and not written in the log book....

Did the fake logs cause a problem or was the problem just the fact you had people posting fake logs, you didn't want them posted to your caches so you had to delete them? Did something bad happen because of the fake logs?

The people that fly by me like I'm standing still when I'm already exceeding the posted speed aren't doing it because of mechanical fluctuations in the gearing of their spedometers. The issue is that you cannot expect people in general (and last I checked GC is filled with people in general) to follow GC guidelines any more tightly then people in general follow ANY rules or guidelines as well as harshly punishable laws. There WILL be some that manage to get around any rules/guidelines/laws. We have 46,047 geocachers so you can expect some that don't follow them and some that just plain ol' find joy in breaking as many rules as they can. If anything becomes a big problem you deal with it. Nothing posted in 30 pages of this thread shows that fakes log are even more then a minor inconvienience and basically only affect the purity of the game. So asking if they degrade the game has about as much validity as asking if people signing logs with pencils degrade the game. >>>> No, fake logs don't degrade GC.

So we just "need' rules but we don't "need" to follow them? What a new twist!!!!

Then golf with someone else. And if your buddy does it next week when you're not in his foresome it has absolutely no affect on you or the game of golf.... We're turning so many circles here we're just about worn thru to the backside of the forums.... Fake logs have little to no direct affect on any of the 46,057 geocahers. People who enter fake logs are either cheating themselves out of the fun of GC or playing some other way that brings them fun. If the game of GC is degraded in anyone's eyes then it's more an issue of one's perception of the situation then the actual conditions of the game. Ahhhh... page 30... time to rest.

You think if false logging was that bad on GC it wouldn't be as bad everywhere else? And if you didn't even know it existed unless you dug in deep to find out, then what's the problem?

AH-HA!!! The salvation of GC!!!! MORE BEER! Keg cache 1 thru 100 coming up....