infiniteMPG

Depends on the trip length but I personally hate carrying anything. I like wearing what I bring along. Have a nice padded backpack that can fit an ammo can and other 'supplies' without causing much pain, even when mountain biking. I also have the Camelback M.U.L.E. and love it, fill that sucker with ice and then top off with water and it keeps you cool all day (important even in February in Florida). Lots of storage compartments but no room for full caches to tag along. My GPS is on a belt clip (or handlebar clip for biking), PDA on a belt clip, camera always along (Z3 for rugged trips and paddling, Sony A-100 for calmer trips). Always have my Apalachian hiking stick (with GC metal tag of course) when on foot. Try to keep it all in the back of the Jeepster ready to go... find the spot, scope it out, pick the gear and go

Would it count if it r€ally wasn't thề lЭttЭr Œ but just somЗ charactΞrs that look€d likΞ it?

You have 11 hides. I, like many others, have many more then that. I have 218 active hides. Your proposed solution is to visit your caches and validate logs. I have single caches that take 11 miles of hiking to get to. Caches that take a whole day paddling to get to. How would you propose I police my caches? Or maybe I should remove 207 of my caches so I can police the logs properly? A couple of possible scenarios have been suggested on how fake logs may cause problems. The only single example given (and I think this is the 11th time I posted this) could never prove that the previous person entered the log after the cache went missing and not before because there is nothing to support the claim (the actual log is gone with the cache). Congecture. Assumption. Possibilities. No real "examples" at all. I think everyone agrees fake logs are not good. But I also think almost everyone sees there is not much of a problem from them so why put effort into policing them? - How often do you visit your caches to compare logs? - How much time do you spend on doing this with your 11 caches? - What is the greatest amount of time to acces your most remote cache? - If you get a log entry stating TFTH do you immediately flag that as possibly being fake? What sets your flags off to check? Inquiring minds want to know...

Not going on a witch hunt spending countless hours validating every log posted on line precisely matches the date and signature of one in the log book, in no way condones, justifies or defends fake logs. It just means those owners don't see them as a problem so they do not see any reward in hunting them down. They have better things to do with their time... like geocaching.

The first nano we ran across was on a sign post outside a BBQ joint exposed to 100% of the weather. I have one nano that catches everything the Florida weather can throw at it and has survived thru a hurricane and several tropical storms without the log ever getting wet. The magnet came off once (the people didn't know how to open it and tried prying the magnetic off to gain access) but it's been rock solid.

Concerns are fine. Proposed solutions are more readily accepted. What do you propose be done about fake logs? And remember you are addressing an audience that has yet to be shown a single verifiable problem on a regular cache caused by a fake log.

Last time I checked the definition for "deflowering" had little to do with flowers.... So not sure I want to know about "backing into a parking spot".... hehehehe

If an owner keeps their cache active and secure, if they preform maintenance expidiciously when needed, keep the log book intact, and check on it occasionally or when needed, they're doing their job (and also doing a lot more then some other owners). And they're enhancing the game even if they don't ferret thru their log book for signature flaws.

As long as it's not "deflower"

After 34 pages of posts I think everyone knows the title... by heart. Are we allowing the degradation of geocaching? In reference to fake logs. In summary : 1 - Fake logs cause less problems for geocachers then any of a number of other much more tangible factors that we 100% know exist as we have experienced them first hand. Examples of actual problems from fake logs on regular caches either don't exist or are so rare no one can even point one out. 2 - Not a lot can be done about fake logs other then inspecting log books regularly and doing comparisons against internet logs and addressing them on an as-found basis. But since the problems from fake logs appear to be so rare, I doubt any cache owner would care to dedicate any time purely in this pursuit. 3 - If a log was found to be bogus everyone here agrees they would address it somehow. Either apporach the logger or just delete it. But everyone agrees on this point. So are we "allowing" the degradation of geocaching from fake logs? It's been pretty much shown here that many other more tangible things are bigger problems for geocaching then fake logs, so any degradation from fake logs is insignificant. There may even be a lot of them, but they have not been shown to cause problems for geocachers. So the bottom line answer is "no".

Nanos are nice but some people despise them. I have a couple out there and they fit the application. Haven't had a problem with them leaking but I have had magentics fall off and the paint chip from use. Kind of takes away the flat black stealth of it when chipped parts are shiny bright. My #1 micro is the $1.00 Wal-Mart waterproof match containers. Great and water tight as you could ever ask for. They're bright safety orange and that usually doesn't work well for a hide but a blast of camo paint holds great on them. They can be hung with an eye hook (hot melt inside the lid to keep from leaking), stuffed in the end of a stick and set up by a tree, spanish moss hot melted to them and hung in a tree, mounting into an old cow bone with some Quick-Crete concrete molded on the cap, hundreds of uses My #1 regular is the good old Wal-Mart Lock-n-Lock, cheap, easy, water tight, holds camo paint well, and readily available in many different shapes and sizes. That is when I run out of ammo cans. My absolute #1 favorite container is the decon but unfortunately I am findng that all too many cachers can't seem to get the knack of snapping them back shut tight (or they snap the nylon strap into the lid making them vulnearble to the rain). No painting required. My 2-cents....

::printing out that post:: Cool, I can use these in some upcoming cache names.... THANKS! hehehehe

A virtual.... By the same token degradation exists from cachers not hiding caches back correctly, not closing containers tightly, not practicing stealth when seeking an urban cache, not entering anything more then TFTH in the log, delayed log entry, theft of geocoins, inability to properly log trackable items, by bad weather affecting hiding places and preventing people from seeking, by people littering around a previously beautiful cache location, by flooding, by insects, by critters, by poison ivy, by construction and urban spread, by snakes, by lawn maintenance crews, by apathetic cache owners, by cloud and tree cover, by humidity, by traffic, by pens running out of ink, by website traffic issues, by a million things that we all have "experienced" first hand and know what they do to the game. And anyone could make a federal case out of any one of those items. But I don't think any of these "inconvieniences" are enough to warrant any change in our caching activities any more or less then fake logs, which seems to be less of a problem then any of the items above. Yeah, they all cause degradation but the amount is so insignificant it shouldn't matter...

Some people thing it's not true to the game of geocaching to use the hint unless in desperate need... now we're sounding like we all rely on the previous logs to make a find. What happened to the old text on the webpage stating : Warning. Spoilers may be included in the descriptions or links. We could just mandate that cache owners have to tell us exactly where the hides are with explicite directions on how it's camo'ed and be done with the worry that logs might be fake. And how in the h3ll would you ever get a FTF...? There are NO LOGS at all.....

So are you saying that the resemblence of Signal to Beelzebufo is causing the degradation of geocaching especially in the anti-beelzebufo sect of modern post-scientology religious geocachers? I mean in just a perceived kind of way.... not a factual one. Neat article. Pacman frogs???? Whoa.... And just who picked the frog for Signal???? hehehehe

Please quote me correctly, I didn't say fake logs were not happening as I believe 100% that they are. What I said was they are not causing problems with regular caches as there has been no evidence given of a single problem caused on a regular cache by a fake log. As in the same way we could demonstrate that degradation "could" occur from cachers magnetizing ammo cans causing GPS's to point away from them and PDA's suddenly powering off.... Missed that one. Where was that demonstrated? The example given was no proof of anything as it was "assumed" that the log referenced was entered after the cache disappeared but had just as much possibility of having been entered prior to the cache disappearing. Back to the same old flawed example that's based on the assumption that the log was entered prior to the cache disappearing. Holds no water.... none. Beating that same dead horse is getting old. Proof - the means by which something is shown to be true or correct with convincing evidence. Assumption - to take for granted without proof Not hard to figure out what consitutes proof. Factual examples of the situation where fake logs caused actual problems for cachers on regular caches. Not assuptions that the problem "may" occur.

So in other words the only problems that fake logs have ever caused are theoretical problems. 33 pages of thread on if something that has never had an actual problem with a regular cache is degrading the game.... ::sigh::

If your friend was doing a bug drop I'd assume he knew where the cache should of been, and since he knew it was missing, why was it left online? And why did he return, did he expect it to magically re-appear? What's the GC code for this cache? Did you confront the person who entered the log? What did that say? If you have evidence by all means present it and convince us these are causing the degredation of caching. Also, from history on this thread : Also read about one person seeking a missing cache due to a supposed fake log making it sound like it was there but no way to prove it didn't go missing AFTER the person logged their find. briansnat - Feb 7 2008, 11:02 AM Happened to me. Happened to several others I know. I doubt we are the only ones. Did the caches go missing after the phony logs? Very unlikely in each case. As he said it was very unlikely the cache went missing prior to the log entry.... but still a possibility, as stated by brainsnat himself. And proof isn't in the probabilities, it's in the facts. And the point of this thread is if fake logs are causing the degradation of geocaching and my point is that it is not. If you think it is then by all means every time some posts a log to one of your caches, immediately run out and check it against the log pages and do what you feel just for the preservation of the sanctity of geocaching. I'd rather trust in people for the most part and have fun with this cool recreational activity.

Eleventh time posting this, if the cache was MISSING then there was NO LOG BOOK to prove if the cache went missing BEFORE or AFTER the last people logged their find. Congecture. Assumption. Not even close to a valid debating point let alone proof.

Yeah, tasteless IMHO. We have several caches near old historic cemeteries but they are outside the gates and hidden as to be found without disturbing any people paying respects inside. Any that require entrance are old hidden away abandoned historical cemeteries (with full public access) and then you only need to retrieve dates or numbers from headstones, nothing hidden there. We like old ceneteries but we sure wouldn't be climbing trees in any of them... even for a cache.

We cached in every flake of snow that Mother Nature has thrown at us regardless of depth, temperature, wind chill or anything..... ...every bit.... .... every single flake.... ...here in west central Florida. Errrr... what's snow?

Big difference is we could prove one way or the other if it was raining somewhere in the world. Would not be an assumption, would be a fact with proof. If you can't "prove" something has ever happen (i.e. fake logs in regular caches have affected other cachers in a bad way) then debating if those fake logs have degraded the game of caching is pointless. M: I came here for a good argument. A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument. M: An argument isn't just contradiction. A: It can be. M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition. A: No it isn't. M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction. A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position. M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.' A: Yes it is! M: No it isn't! Monty Python to the rescue....

I currently have 236 hides with 218 active and have to agree that often I enjoy hiding more then finding as I am a sneaky, tricky, SOB and people either love my caches or hate them, I'm fine either way. I try to make each one a unique experience and maintain them all, after all, you need to keep up with the responsibilities of cache ownership and not let the caching public down by not maintaining what you hide. I am just about at my saturation point so anything I hide now has to be a really special spot, technique or camo. Worked on my last hide over a week before hiding it and think it was totally worth it. I don't care for cookie cutter caches with little thought or imagination to them. Feel it's important to present a good product to the marketplace. Quality hide, well maintained, with imagination applied as needed. A professional cache listing with clear concise information, background images, links, information and history about a spot if possible, and good grammar and spelling I guess a good owner creed is don't hide more then you can regularly maintain, and hide what you'd like to find. Sometimes I'm glad I don't have to seek my own hides....

The only example people seem to come back with is the one of a fake log making a missing cache look like it's still there yet no one can prove that happens / happened / or may happen. We could only ASSuME. I think a bogus logger would tend to avoid caches like that as they would attract suspicion. But any low life that would try to get around the fun of geocaching just to inflate their numbers has to remember that they'll be staring at an @sshole every morning in their bathroom mirror Definitely! Faking a log would be an expression of that type of person and I would bet that type behavior would be displayed in other phases of their lives. Not someone I'd want to hang with or be friends with, let alone cache with. We've wasted gas and time on many things in geocaching and have yet to look at any of that as anything except a learning experience. Now if we can just find a way to justify bad picked numbers in the lottery as a learning experience....

Actually I think this thread is (hopefully) winding down. The only real way to tell if a log is fake is compare the signatures in the actual log book to the logs listed online. And even this has some 'issues' as sometimes people don't sign the log books orderly and you could mistake a fake log for someone who signed it in the wrong place, or have trouble reading it, or used initials, or forgot a pen, or the log books gets wet and faded, or other circumstances... IMHO it's a pretty major task keeping up with cache maintenance and if you stumble across a fake log then deal with it, but hunting them down doesn't have much merit (unless you enjoy doing that). Good work on putting that much effort into your cache, uploading the pictures, adding the hint, etc. Keep an eye on the container, Altoids cans rust and when they start rusting the lids tend to freeze in place and then people bend the you-know-what out of them trying to get them open. And a little plastic bag for the log sheet always helps (Ebay has 'em) unless it's in a spot not exposed to rain or moisture. Just my 2-cents but good work!