infiniteMPG

That's Olde English for "dude!" "Huzzah" is also the exclamation used by the slapstick villain Punch as he outwits the Devil in the finale of the classic version of the Punch and Judy show, which dates back to the 18th and 19th centuries in England..... learn somethin' new every day. Huzzah!.... Wassup!!!

I think most people, if at a golf course and somehow getting a ball into a cup would consider it "golf" regardless of the instruments used to get it there. For "recreational" golf I have seen people use sticks and umbrellas for clubs, I have seen people tee off with putters, seen people kick the ball into the cup, seen a lot of people use the handle of their putter as a cue stick to putt the ball in and seen people use an empty beer bottle as a driver. Played many times with no score card at all (thankfully). Yeah, we all still called it "golf" and it was fun. Somepeople look at the world thru **** coloured glasses and everything is hard line and serious, some of us prefer the rose coloured ones and we smile and laugh a lot. Find (f-i-nd) v. found (found), To discover or ascertain through observation, experience, or study"Find" doesn't mean you have to touch, you can just observe. By that same reasoning above you'd be saying we never "found" other galaxies and we never "found" the moon until July 20, 1969. Comes down to personal interpretation, and just because you have your own interpretation doesn't make anyone who has a different one wrong. Try an tell the military folks they didn't "find" the terrorists until they went there and "got" them. They "found" them and then went and "got" them... but from a GC perspective it states to "find" the cache, not to "get" it

Good perspective.... I like that. When it comes down to it GC is like Ebay, you have owners and cachers like buyers and sellers who use GC's or Ebay's website to link up. But when it comes down to it the transaction is between the buyer and the seller or owner and cacher. The GC site only provides the means for them to connect.... the "transaction" is between the owner and the cacher, GC just has the tools that allow that to happen and beyond the content of their site they pretty much stay out of it except for gross violations

By that sense you CANNOT have a cache so small if cannot have trade items as this states it's as much a REQUIREMENT to take and leave something as it is to sign the log book. And if someone doesn't have something to LEAVE then they're not playing by the rules either??? And from the Tips for Finding a Cache Page at GC http://www.geocaching.com/about/finding.aspx Step 4 – The Find Huzzah! You found the cache! Congratulations! Now what? Usually you take an item and leave an item, and enter your name and experience you had into the log book. Some people prefer to just enter their name into the log book. It’s an accomplishment enough to locate the cache. Make sure to seal the cache and place it back where you found it. If it had some rocks covering it, please replace them. It’s pretty straightforward. Remember that waypoint we suggested you create where your car/trail was located? Use that now to get back! You’ll be glad you had it. b]When you get home, email the person who hid the cache and let them know you found it! [/b] They’re always happy to know the condition of their cache and it’s nice to know that people are looking for them. Amazing it doesn't say anything about logging the find online???? Only goes to prove there are vague guidelines leaving things up to a lot personal interpretation so every can have their own kind of fun. And what the heck is Huzzah!..????

Not in the totally no rules crowd, more in the "benign bogus logs don't really hurt anyone and have more fun things to do with my time then validate log entries" crowd but I'll bite. If someone logged that I would email them and congratulate them and then ask them to describe the hide. Being a paddle only cache it would be pretty easy to determine if they'd actually been there. If no reply or no correct answer.... deleted, pretty simple. And this from the owner of quite a few paddle only caches and a tough paddle only multi that was found within two days of being posted. If it's a clearly missing cache that has not been flagged so by the owner, then that's bad on the owner. If they're not dilligent enough to maintain their cache or the cache listing then people are going after a missing cache because the owner hasn't handled it. Have you ever searched for a cache with a handful of DNF's before you go? We do all the time and take pride finding caches several others failed to find. Remarks like these make it sound like a lot of people won't go for a cache even if just the last entry is a DNF because of fear that it might be missing. Some of our most fun finds have been long hike caches with a dozen DNF's that hadn't been found in almost a year. Of course there were not the only cache in the area, but finding them was pretty exciting.

Come up with an example that doesn't involve damaging property and only involves the scorekeeping part as we are just referring to signing the log sheet, everything else is still geocaching in everyone's book as the person gets the cache info from GC.com, uses a GPSr and finds the cache, then just doesn't sign the log sheet. We're not talking about people that drop napalm on a 1/2 mile area and then after the flames die down they can more easily find the steel ammo can. I think it's a dang good example to just say people are all playing golf on a golf course but someone's keeping their score differently. The imagination can be stretched pretty far.... first off GPS is Global Positioning System and not necessarily a GPSr Global Positioning System Receiver. That means anything that can get you a global position which could include a compass, stars, landmarks, maps, Google Earth, etc. Next we're talking "finding" a cache. Kind of in the way they "found" terrorist training camps in Afghanistan, if someone had a good enough global satallite imagining system to zone in and see the cache container which they located with a mapping system, then for that stretch of the imagination they legitimately used a "GPS" to "find" a cache from their dark lonely basement. I don't think anyone was yelling that in Afghanistan they didn't really "find" them because they were only looking at pictures Haven't been on in a few days so my imagination needed a little stretching... don't agree with armchair caching and think the logs should be deleted if that's what they obviously are, but don't see how it hurts anyone else playing GC if the log is pretty much benign.

ACK! Hypothetical situation that is impossible to prove! If someone logs a visit to a cache and then at some time the owner determines the cache is missing, since the log sheet that is in the cache is missing, too, it's TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE to prove if the cache went missing before or after the person logged a visit. And if the cache was known missing by the owner prior to the person logging the find then that's bad on the owner for not disabling it or noting so on the listing. ACK!!! People keep bringing up this situation and it's one you could NEVER prove happened!!!! Have you ever DNF'ed a cache and the last person FOUND IT? Maybe you just couldn't find it. And if it turns out it WAS missing you could NEVER prove it went missing BEFORE the last person logged it. People keep throwing this example out there and it's about as provable as determinig if aliens kidnapped the cache and are running anal probes on it..... And with gas at +$4/gallon it better be one special cache to drive 50 miles (averaging 20mpg that's +$20 in just gas and a couple hours driving for one find).....

Have actually cached in groups to big preserves and when someone saw the container they just stepped back and watched, if asked they said they found it and waited for the remainder of the group to find it. Was a challenge to NOT be the last person with the rest of the group standing there chuckling as you bumped into the container over and over and ::sigh:: over.... hehehe And thankfully I have learned that when I get those PHP timeout errors to check the thread before entering the message again as often the message is posted and posting again leads to that old "Deleting duplicate post"

We used to disc golf every day at lunch and each hole is basically a par 3. One of our group on his 2nd or 3rd throw would always be in the woods, you'd hear him toss a disc into a tree, cuss a bit, do it again, then again, then again. Then toss up close, then after 2 or 3 more tosses he's finally hit the basket. We'd ask him what he got and he'd rub his chin, look back down the fairway, think a minute and then say "Bogey". Well, bogey is 4 and he had 4 before he was within sight of the basket. We'd just chuckle and go to the next hole. No harm, no foul. It made him happy and gave us a laugh, didn't change our game. And we had fun watching him think we didn't know. It's a game for the fun of it, being played for the fun of it. No competition and if someone wanted to cheat their score they're just cheating themselves. If someone got all anal and blasted him for cheating, that's the person we'd stop inviting as the rest of us were having fun. With something like 50 log entries made every minute of every day, I think you have better chances of winning the lottery then having a bogus log raise it's ugly head high enough to be noticed on one of your hides, so the entire debate is pretty much mute. And to give the maximum benifit of a doubt then it becomes like the law, innocent until proven guilty, and there can be a ton of mitigating circumstances that could make it difficult to prove (nano log, disorganized log book, fallen off stickers, illegible signatures, wet log sheets, etc) and to give that benifit then you'd still email the logger before deleting and give them a chance to plea their case. The things that would cause a log to be checked are : - Cache finds posted on caches not physically able to of been found at one time - Log entires that don't match hides (but even on this one I disagree as I have had many cache logs entered that people just plain old got the multiple caches they found mixed up and I have done this myself and had to go back and correct things) What else???? Don't think they're challenging you, just think they actually don't care so deleting their logs is effort on your part and no skin off their back, they're having fun and enjoying what they're doing regardless of what the owner does, even if it means they are really armchair caching (which I do not agree with but I also believe they are cheating themselves more then anyone else). Bottom line __________ if something slaps us in the face that it's a totally bogus log then deal with it. If we're maintaining a cache and we replace a log sheet or somehow notice a name online is missing on the log sheet, then email the logger, if no response or validation then delete. Other then that I think we stick with hiding and finding caches (and signing the log sheet).

It matters because we are all playing golf on the same golf course, we are putting the balls into the same holes, we are teeing off from the same tee boxes, the physical score card total supports the validity of the score that one professes in the clubhouse and serves to document that the flag sticks are are all still there <jk> This is a recreational activity and doesn't even have rules, it has guidelines. People that take things like golf (or geocaching) too serious when it's not meant to be, can tarnish the game more then the people who cheat on their score keeping (or cache finding). Last thing I want is someone coming up to me in the clubhouse and questioning my score on the third hole because he didn't see me putt out.... or questioning me because my signature was clear enough to verify, or my sticker fell off the sheet, or the cache went missing soon after I found the cache and my find is no longer varifiable. Can't readily validate signatures on nanos, can't validate signature on wet or damaged logs, or on missing caches, or on stickered log entries, or in cluttered disarrayed log books, and can't validate who actually signed the log... the data is already vague, easily flawed, tough to validate and of little value beyond people's diary of cache finds. Just like it's meant to be for a fun recreational light hearted activity like geocaching.

If someone got info from GC, used their GPSr and went out and tackled the challenge and found the cache, but didn't sign the log sheet I would say they executed the essentials of the game of geocaching. I think the issue is more that the general concensis is the person in question doesn't even do that. Soccer doesn't require 11 players on the pitch, if you don't have enough players you can still play or a if player gets red carded (or double yellowed), the goalie can and does pick up the ball and run with it, and it's still soccer... (former ref yakkin') but yeah, I get your point. The difference is soccer on any level is competitive and the rules are in place to keep the competition fair between the competitors. GC isn't competitive. Some people will argue that finding a cache with Google Earth isn't, either, but I think the prime rule should be if you don't impact how others play, then play on! I do agree a proven bogus log should be deleted but I don't agree that someone playing a slightly different version of GC then others shouldn't equate to automatic log deletion or GC would of put tighter and clearer rules in place rather then vague guidelines. But those vague guidelines also grant owners the right to intrepret them as they see fit. We don't all have to agree on anything except that we're in this to have fun and make it fun for others. When it stops being fun and gets all hard line, dramatic and serious, many people will find something else to do

That would be classified as "Plagiarism" (the practice of claiming or implying original authorship of (or incorporating material from) someone else's written or creative work, in whole or in part, into one's own without adequate acknowledgement) and it will get you immediately expelled from just about any educational facility in the country. That's a hard standing violation of a set in stone rule, not a guideline or a game. Other then conducting an interview with them you'd be hard pressed to prove one way or another if they actually found the cache. Most people really wouldn't care. Disagree, you can play golf but the rules of golf state you need to add a penalty stroke if you touch your club in the sand before swinging and other basic rules that 99% of the golfers playing recreationally violate. Doesn't mean they're playing a "different" game then "golf", does it?????

I am 100% for the following the guidelines including signing the logs, I merely was questioning the means of enforcement. Kind of like we owners actually own the checkers boards and the question comes in if we let someone play by stacking the checkers up and knocking them down with marbles or do we require them to play right even if it doesn't affect anyone else playing checkers. Not at all of that's what you want to spend your time doing but no one should frown towards an owner who doesn't do that and prefers to spend their time hiding new caches or finding others rather then tracking down potentially bogus log entries. Nope, the witch hunt is the act of spending an entire day hiking or kayaking solely hunting for that one bogus log entry. But that's just MHO though as if someone wants to do that then so be it but I think I have better, more enjoyable ways to spend my time. It has happened and some threads have included owners who feel they should delete any questionable log and make the finder prove they found it to regain the smilie. Point well taken and I see no problem on a regular "maintenance run" checking the log sheet but the topic of "witch hunting" is making the trip just to validate a log entry. You mean "The point of geocaching is to find geocaches AND SIGN THE LOG BOOKS", right? But pretend worlds are pretty popular, SIMS, Fantasy sports, RPG, and other things where people spend their time in a pretend world rather then the real one. I prefer the real one myself. I am sure there are dumb deceivers in all realms of life who are easy to catch, the people that armchair quarterback and cut-and-paste "TFTH!" as their online entries would be much harder to catch. Once again checking logs when doing a regular maintenance run is no problem at all. I like reading the logs but can't say I have ever carried a printout of all the online log entries along and then sit there for 30 minutes comparing each log entry with a signature but it sounds like some people do (PQ's only have the last 5 entires so to check more you'd have to have a list somehow) and you still couldn't validate that the person in question actually signed the name you're reading or placed their sticker, they could of had a friend do it for them. Some log books are in such disarray that would be a long task to do in the field and you could be missing out on some good finds nearby

Probably as boggling as people who play SIMS games.... "Hey, today I'll pretend to have a family and pretend to go to work and pretend to have friends who can pretend to come to my pretend house with this video game." Maybe someone should come out with "SIMS Geocaching" or a geocaching game for the WII and then armchair cachers would be distracted from the real game... But boggling or not, some people get their kicks that way.... to the tune of million$ spent on that stuff.

I can see if a cacher logs a load of finds in one day and some are so far apart that they could not of possibly been to them, like maybe even different countries, then the flag goes up. What else would raise that flag? If someone has a 10 mile hike or a long paddle to get to a hide and someone does that trip for the sole purpose of validating a log entry, then yeah, I'd put that into the category of a "witch hunt". As stated earlier, other then PAG's, how much effort is put into validating a find or is it the "I'm deleting your log entry because I just don't believe you and it's up to you to prove you actually found it!" phylosophy? How many bogus logs has anyone found, what raised the flag and what was done to prove they were bogus? If the GC database somehow corrupted tomorrow and all find number totals disappeared from exitence, would it change how much fun people had finding caches they found? I think for many people the GC data is just a personal recording of their experiences and nothing to be used to prove themselves better or lesser then others.

Very true, you can.... but how do you know a sticker on a log sheet is a valid find? Or if one person signed the log sheet for 10 friends? Or how do you validate signatures on a nano log sheet? And IMHO a good portion of the logs I sign there are signatures scattered all over the place where people just find a blank spot and sign it. If it's a couple year old cache with a few hundred signatures, how much time do you spend studying the log sheet to find a particular cacher's signatures? And another good portion of the signatures I can't read at all... sloppy writing, only initials, wet bled log sheets, multiple signatures all in the same handwriting, do you delete any log you can't match to a unique valid signature? I think I could snag a few finds in the same amount of time it takes to validate one signature from one log entry on anything other then a PAG... but it's true, if that what gives you joy and pleasure, then go for it! But I still haven't seen a guidelines/rule/law/statement saying a cacher HAS to sign the log sheet. And if they could validate they found the hide by telling you exactly where it is, what the container was and what was in it BUT they didn't sign the log sheet would you still delete their log???? Because then that would be your personal interpretation of a "find" and not the guideline's as they state a find is finding the cache, not finding the cache AND signing the log sheet. I agree it's standard practice to sign the log sheet and most cachers play that way, but I don't see justification for a witch-hunt to track down people who don't. And as far as looking for caches with potentially bogus recent finds, if a cache is missing there is no log sheet to prove that a log was made before or after the cache went missing so you would never have one ounce of proof to show that the find was posted AFTER the cache went missing not before. And you'd not even know if it was missing or you just couldn't find it and DNF's and MIA's happen all the time... part of the risks of playing this game.

The guidelines I quoted were for people finding caches, the guidelines you quoted were for people hiding caches. I never said their shouldn't be a log book in the cache, just that the guidelines don't say someone finding the cache HAS to sign it. Just because there is a guest book on the table, or a blank comment card at the restaurant, or a suggestion button on a web page doesn't mean anyone HAS to sign it or fill it out. The guideline you stated was telling cache owners to put a log book in a cache for a finder to sign but I have yet to see anywhere that states they HAVE to sign it.

Guess I missed where something says there's "requirements" as all I find are guidelines. And last I checked (which was right now) on the GC guielines about finding a cache it states : Usually you take an item and leave an item, and enter your name and experience you had into the log book. Some people prefer to just enter their name into the log book. It’s an accomplishment enough to locate the cache. Hmmm, I just noticed that word "usually", did anyone else? And for those of you playing the wording game and saying it's talking that "usually" is only for trading items and signing the log sheet is madatory, by that logic you can also say that it means you "usually" take an item but it's madatory to leave an item and sign the log book I really admire the way it states that the accomplishment is locating the cache and that what you do when you find it is open to personal preferences. How does it hurt someone else, detrimentally hurt the game, or do anything to anyone if someone finds a cache, doesn't sign the log but enters a find if they don't say anything bad in their entry???? How is that different then signing illegibly, having the log book get wet, signing on the wrong place on the log sheet, forgetting your pen, signing a scribble on a nano log, etc? I guess I'm missing what harm is done by not signing the log book. Sounds like it's just a difference of opinion on how to play. That same argument would have logs deleted by people who used Google Earth to find a cache rather then a GPSr, or someone who had someone in a group sign for them, or someone who got an additional hint from another cacher, or someone who put down the wrong date, or someone who used a sticker rather then signing the log (anyone could have someone else's stickers with them), and the list of interpretations goes on and on, but thankfully so does the fun (for those of us who don't take this too seriously). A - Have fun B - Don't impact someone else's way of playing (including damaging or stealing caches) I like it simple.

Agreed, but there are times when I was signing a log and getting eaten alive by prehistoric skeeters, or drowned in a torrential rainstorm or ever signing a nano log with a cr*ppy pen, and I doubt seriously I could even identify my own signature. I, as I am sure most cache owners, would address anything that came to our attention. But after several years of caching, several hundred hides, and several thousand log entries I have yet to see that question arise. Just don't see a need to police it or even spot check it. Excatly my point and the karma or fate will get them in the end. I have deleted a total of one log in my history with GC and that was because the cacher wanted to hide a cache in the spot I did and I guess felt hurt in some way. They blasted me and lashed out with some very derogatory comments in the log. I offerred them to post a find again which after they calmed down they did. And even with a bogus log unless I saw what they entered was detrimental to the hide or the game I doubt I'd do much about it. Their loss for missing out on a good hide

If it's not competitive and just for fun then you're right, there are no rules except what we feel like. If we play Monopoly by seeing who can toss the board across the yard and then get the most hotels to land on it by shooting them up in the air with a slingshot then so be it. Doesn't hurt how someone else wants to play Monopoly (unless it's someone else's board and tore up playing our way). Exactly! People who take games too seriously are the people that ruin the game. Same would go for Monopoly. "AHA! Your dice stopped partially off the board, it's MY TURN and you don't get to move!!! MUH-HA-HA-HA!!!" In most all your examples you're comparing competitive games to GC which is NOT competitive (unless you make it that way). You'd be better off comparing it to recreation golf with some buddies. If your friend didn't take a stroke for his shot in the water on a Saturday afternoon hack session you gonna go complain to the clubhouse and tear up his scoresheet????? You'd probably get a putter in the face and no beer at the 19th. If you don't tear up the lanes they could give a flying you-know-what how you keep score or play. They don't allow you to walk ON the lane, that's a rule to protect their property and their liability if you slipped and got hurt. And even if you went past the line and they saw you they'd probably just laugh as you crash down by slipping on the oil. As long as you don't impact other bowlers and it's not a league or competitive play of some type, throw the ball between your legs, spin three times and kick it down the lane, they don't care, change all your splits to strikes, they still only care about you having FUN. Hmmm.... I'm seeing a connection here. Now you've moved into the realm of damaging someone's property and physically affecting other people's enjoyment of GC. A fake log doesn't affect how someone else has fun with GC as the GC website is a database for each of us to enter info we want to keep track of, the act of geocaching happens outside (except for some puzzle caches). If someone likes spending their time visiting hides to analyize signatures and compare them to logs, hunting down potential fake logs and deleting them then they should go for it. But if anyone signed a log but the owner couldn't clearly identifiy their signature and they deleted their log I doubt seriously they'd ever hunt another of that owner's caches again. I don't, have not, and never will condone fake logs and if something specifically came to my attention I would deal with it. But the day I feel distrust enough in people and the GC community to validate a bunch of logs (because even the most legit sounding could be fake), that's the day I find another hobby.

To the "no sign no smilie" camp, do you actually validate EVERY log that people enter online on your caches? And what if someone signed on the wrong page, or between someone else's signatures, or what if someone signed just their initials? Or what if you couldn't legitimately validate a signature because of a damp log? And what about caches that are paddle only or take a whole day to hike to? And what if one cacher signed someone else's name to a log who wasn't actually there? PUH-lease... what about people with hundreds of finds on their caches every week???? You'd need a team of log validators just to keep up. If that was what owning a cache meant we'd have about 1% of the hides we currently have. You have to either validate all of them or don't validate any because validating "some" is just a bit of geocaching prejudice. Even what looks like a valid log entry could be as bogus as the next. And someone posting that they're not signing logs surely wouldn't be the mark of a bogus cacher as that is drawing a bit of attention to the tune of (so far) over 1,300 reads to this thread! Unless you're into competitive numbers then find count for someone else shouldn't matter one spit. The only thing a bogus logger does is cheat themselves and if they're having fun posting bogus logs then you've brought joy to someone in a way you didn't expect. And we shouldn't re-start the "They might make people think a missing cache is still there when it's MIA" thread because without the log sheet of a missing cache you'd have abolutely no evidence to prove their log was bogus so you couldn't prove that it didn't go missing after they found it, and if it was verified missing by the owner before they logged it then that's an issue of the owner not disabling it and making people go after a missing cache.... whipped that dead horse until there was nothing left. I say let 'em have their fun, but if someone else's idea of fun is inspecting and validating log entries for fake finds and deleting people's log entries, then they're into this "game" for a completely different reason then I am.

I have to admit that I was rather impressed when I was saw a log entered on one of my caches from carssuckjeepsrule and since I am kind of partial to my GeoJeepster I had to chat with 'em....

Even though the guidelines state to sign the log, they also state : It’s an accomplishment enough to locate the cache. Seems this cacher is not into numbers and is into geocaching for the pure fun of finding the caches. Don't think deleting their logs would bother them one bit. What's to be gained by deleting their logs? If someone is that concerned about them finding a particular logged cache then email 'em and see if they can validate the container, location, or something to confirm the find. Don't think it would bug 'em to delete all their finds, they know what they've done (or haven't done)

Businesses can only regulate people directly employeed by them or people on property they own, but they cannot regulate the general public if they are not on the business's property. And many socially unacceptable things are regulated by the government, try using tons of profanity walking some downtown sidewalk sometime. I think public nuisance would come in to play which would be anything impeding the life, health, property, morals, or comfort of the public. Guess that could be viewed as being "regulated". We can always complain to supportdesk@geocaching.google.com

Might not be bad for a quick snap camera but with no optical zoom you get shots just like most phone cameras with maybe a little better quality (my LG VX8700 has a 2Mp built in). The clip body is neat and has a built in flash, but unless it has a lens cover I'd be very wary. And here in Florida, clipped to a pack, it better be able to handle getting baked in the sun all day, too.