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infiniteMPG

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Everything posted by infiniteMPG

  1. Don't think it's madatory to post no tresspassing signs where you're not supposed to tresspass, don't have them at my house but I'd sure approach someone aggressively marching thru my back yard. Sounds like the cache shouldn't be there and a quick note to the owner is a good first step. If no response then a note in the log but if they're not willing to discuss it, chances are they'll just delete your note. Then a note to the reviewer and let the cache owner make their case with them (not into being the geo-police so I'm not into posting "needs to be archived" as I think I'd rather let a reviewer decide that except in cases where the land has been bulldozed or something like that). Other then that, everyone caches at their own risk so you did your part (which would be more then many others would do) to protect others from an obvious hazard or discrepancy but it's still up to the individual cacher to assess the risks against the rewards. Have a cache on a neat little side road, a little tough to find the way but still basically a PAG, it's near the interstate and the listing states you can not access it from the interstate. Had a find logged recently where someone didn't read the log, pulled off the interstate, crossed a couple fences, disturbed some cows and went a lot of places they should not of gone to get it. Interesting and funny log and I did my part with the warning but we can't control how someone chooses to get there. This game is pretty much all individuals doing their own things. As far as flaming on people in posts, that often happens when people start discussing other people rather then the topics, and often brought about from frustration in not having a quick enough snappy comeback... hehehe Yeah, we have plenty of rocks in da Sunshine State, just most of them feel outta the caked up salt crud on the bottom of the snowbird's Caddies....
  2. Being 2-1/2 20 year olds I really wished I could of gotten into it earlier. My son is 20 and my daughter 26 and they have no interest. I think it's down to that "won't do what my pop does!" mindset even though they don't seem to say that when I get back from a concert or from getting toasted at Boar's Head in Key West. I think if a similar aged friend were to invite them out they'd jump at the chance. Then again they can't keep up on the mountain bikes, road bikes, kayaks, hikes, etc... Glad the younger crowd is getting into this, renew the faith that all is not lost to Wii and Final Fantasy IV. We're only young once but we can be immature forever!
  3. Same here. If I am doing maintenance then I would be there because of someone reporting something so the last couple logs (and cachers) would be fresh on my mind but only the last 5 would be on my PDA from the PQ. Agreed! Same as if someone was doing something else detrimental that came to my attention. Part of being a responsible cache owner. I think the effort we all put forth in making GC fun for people we'll probably never even meet, and the passionate discussions we get in to here trying to keep GC the best and most fun it can be for everyone shows that we definitely care.
  4. Those same people busted me for 21 items in the 20 item or less lane at Wal-Mart!!! Dang them people that just don't turn a blind eye to my deceitful acts! Foiled again!!!! That's plain ol' common sense, right up there with alerting friends about a cacher who's been writing profanity on log sheets, or not hiding caches back the way they were found or closing containers properly, or stealing containers, or whining in their logs because a cache isn't what they think it should be, or someone logging more then one find on the same cache, or posting a find but their log says "Couldn't find this, maybe next time" or any number of a bazzilion things that you'd circulate with friends. Don't think anyone would have a blatently obvious bogus log on one of their hides hit them in the face and they just say "oh well", just don't know people willing to go hunt thru innocent sounding logs for them. This happens often as a mistake, hitting the wrong button and not noticing. Would call that an accident more then a lie. There are but that's they way they roll so let 'em. Can't please everyone. And as the white picket fence slowly closes behind us we settle down with our 2-1/2 children and watch all the wonderful uplifting stories on the news in our perfect wonderful world.... at least until the drugs wear off.... hehehehehee
  5. Not at all, just saying in the MIA cache situation it's totally impossible to PROVE that the last log was bogus because the log book/sheet would be missing along with the cache. No proof, no case. Never said it's okay to log a bogus/armchair log. Never will say it's okay. Just saying the vast majority would be so harmless that it's not really worth much effort on a cache owners part to hunt them down unless something raised a flag. Never a situation where logging a bogus find is okay, acceptable, condoned or approved. But by the same token lying is not okay but how much effort do you put into validating what people tell you around the water cooler Monday is true? And if you found it wasn't true, what do you do about it? Confront them? Expose them to all their co-workers? If it's something that would affect people like lying about finishing a job or billing a customer, yeah, that's serious stuff. If it's lying about some adventure they claim to of had over the weekend then who does it hurt so why investigate and expose them? Correct.... never writing bogus logs is the correct way to live. Then again so is never lying. And like bogus logs you can proclaim that until the cows come home yet people will still write bogus logs and lie. Don't think anyone ever said bogus logs are "okay", just that there's not much gain in investigating them and not worth putting much effort into dealing with them. If something is blatent and raises a flag then deal with it, other then that time is much better spent creating new caches, maintaining existing caches or finding caches. If you were to be in town for a business meeting and it was far from the airport and you found one nearby cache and then later that evening found a dozen caches 500 miles away when you returned home. To many people that would "appear" bogus, so by the site guidelines that should be deleted as the site doesn't clarrify to "validate" the find, just delete it if it "appears" bogus. Doubt you'd be too happy about it. Most ethical people would validate first but the literal statement in the guidelines state to delete the ones that "appear" bogus, not just ones that "are". I'd rather err on the side of trusting that by nature, most people are honest and play by the rules then distrust people and assume everyone guilty until proven innocent. Other then the one impossible to prove scenario of seeking an MIA cache, what other significant way can they affect others other then just disliking them as one would dislike a lier? Guess I missed that one. Haven't condoned them, just not willing to put the effort into validating every log on my hundreds of hides just as a matter of ethics. How much effort do you personally put into validating the logs entered on your caches are legit and the cache is still there? A bogus log can "sound" as legit as a real one and if you don't validate them all then by that argument, you're condoning the bogus logs that sound legit which could impact people on your own caches, correct? If people see someone toss litter out their car window and they don't run them down or report them, are they "condoning" the act of littering and saying it's "okay" to litter? If they see a child riding a bike not wearing a helmet and don't call the police and report them, are they "condoning" it and saying it's "okay" for kids to ride bikes without helmets? Could come up with a thousand of examples like that that I would bet everyone in here disagrees with but has walked right on by. I don't think that just because someone doesn't actively do something to change a situation that they are saying it's okay to do or condone it. I agree with you that we don't agree with bogus logs and doubt anyone would defend them, it's more a matter of what do you actively do to stop them or what can be done?
  6. Good solution but there are hides that have big log books and some that have not required a speck of maintenance in years. Bogus logs could sit idle for ages and when the maintenance run was made, I doubt anyone will sit there and try to validate 250 finds which would be signed all over the book (I have yet to see a popular cache's log book where every log entry was legible, dated, and sorted in chronological order, stickers have fallen off, etc). Not worth the effort IMHO as a bogus log that didn't cause a problem or raise a flag has already faded into time and you have a higher risk of just not reading an entry properly and deleting a valid find and unnecessarily slapping someone in the face...
  7. "Benign" as in the log entry is bogus but isn't worded badly, doesn't look any different then actual log entries and the cache is not missing which would probably encompass 99.9% of the bogus logs. Maybe an example of how you can determine "when" a missing cache actually went missing would help? If a cache is missing, it's missing. No log to determine what entires may of been made after it's missing state. Of course you could run across an extremely rare example where the land was cleared by bulldozer on a certain date but someone logged a find after that date and the owner didn't determine it was missing until later, but that's clutching at straws and you have a better chance of stumbling across bigfoot while caching. These example cachers who only go after caches that have finds in the last several days seem like they would suffer terrible emotional anguish over a simple DNF regardless of the cause. What's the difference if they DNF a cache because they just couldn't find it? Or the last cacher didn't hide it back properly? Or the last logger was bogus and the cache is missing? Or the cache went missing AFTER the last person legitimately found it and logged it? Regardless of the reason, they got a DNF. How many people make a caching run and NEVER log a DNF???? Is a DNF that big a deal to some people???? Time to switch to de-caff.... And the example of seeking a missing cache becuase of a bogus log entry is impossible to prove except in extremely remote circumstances like the bulldozer example. And even in that example the first person to seek the cache and find cleared land even without a bogus log, would still be looking for a missing cache, would still of driven the to site, would still be as disappointed. Not much difference in seeking a missing cache regardless of the last posting being bogus or not. Until GC hits us with more hard line rules to assure a cache entry is valid (allow owners to have a code that needs to be emailed in to validate a find or something like that). the only way to resolve the potential of that occurring is every time a log entry is made online stating a cache is found, the owner would have to go out and validate the log entry and assure the cache is still there. GC must think it's not that bad a problem or it would be done already.
  8. Hmmmm, let me think about what that thread was about.... oh yeah! Bogus logs and what to do about them The same reasoning that would make one run out and hunt down benign bogus logs would also cause one to : - Count the number of items in other people's carts when in the 20 item or less lane, and if someone has more then 20 items, instruct them to get into a regular lane or call the manager. - When someone finishes loading their shopping items in their vehcile and they push the cart to the end of the parking spot rather then taking it to the designated cart return area, grab their cart and place it quickly behind their vehicle, scold them and tell them to return it to the correct place before they leave. - After using the restroom and you start to leave, you observe someone leaving without washing their hands, you point this out in front of everyone attempting to shame them into doing what's right. - When at the movies you hear the slight rumblings of someone phone on vibrate and see them checking a text message when the movie screen just displayed the message to turn all cell phones "OFF" so you rush to the concession stand and find a manager to report them to. - When walking away from the picnic area at the park you observe someone tossing a plastic bottle in the bin marked "CANS ONLY", you approach them and request they move the bottle and if they fail to do so, you find the park ranger and report them. Yeah, all these things observed are ethically wrong things for people to do. They are things people "should" know better then to do. They are not against the law but they are against the rules. They may in some minor way cause an inconvienience for someone (waiting in line longer, distracted at the movies by the cell phone display, have to shake that unwashed hand a few minutes later, recycling agent having to sort things out better, etc) but I doubt anyone does much but look at these people and shrug their shoulders a tad and shake their head in disappointment that they don't know better. Doubt anyone does any of the suggested responses as I think everyone knows where it would get them. Same goes for benign bogus logs, I am sure a few ethically standing puratins will hunt them down to erradicate them, but I am sure a few people out there would also make a scene at someone with 21 items in the express lane. Not me, I'm the one shaking my head in disappointment and going on my blissful way. If someone else wants to point out those 21 items I won't stand in their way, but I will probably enjoy the show that will ensue
  9. Still comes back to asking "What problems (other then ethical ones) are caused by false logs?" It's already been beaten in the ground that if someone goes after a missing cache and the last log was a smilie, since the actual log sheet from the missing cache is ALSO missing, there is absolutely no way to prove that the smilie occurred after the cache went missing and not before. A totally theoretical situation with basically no way to prove. So where are the "other" problems that can be caused by false logs that everyone is so upset about? Not condoning them but I just don't see anything other then an issue of ethics (i.e. you hate someone who cheats and feel an obligation to see justice done) being a reason to delete a false log.
  10. I see about the same fun in searching for bogus logs as I would from driving around the neighborhood looking for people that don't "clean up" up droppings while walking their dog. If someone did it in my front yard while I was standing there, I'd deal with it. If it happened around the corner from me and I saw it on some evening walk, I'm not going to get DNA testing done on the droppings and try to ID the dog and the owner or drive around every night with my flashlight trying to catch them... but some people sound like busting someone for that would be fun to them. To each their own
  11. 343 posts and 2,126 votes.... hmmmm.... looks like around a 6:1 vote to post ratio
  12. Done! I would think that retirees have more time on thier hands so they're out geocaching more and hanging out on the forums less.... so the upper age group numbers are probebly shy. Need to add "Could be outside caching but chose to sit here on my 'puter and vote in some poll" or "I'm at work and voting on some poll when I should be working" buttons. Yeah, I'd press the work one.
  13. Couldn't agree with that statement more! I enjoy hiding as much (if not more) then finding as I tend to have about 30% as many hides as finds, and the thing that gets me pleasure the most is reading good logs. So I try to create hides that inspire that. With that said I do the same in return. I don't think I've ever just put TFTH or TFTC in a log entry but when I do a quick run and find a dozen caches and I can't recall specifics of a certain find then I tend to not write much. Ones that I am impressed with I can recall vividly after years and they get a good long log entry with pictures if possible. As far as having enough time for geocaching.... don't get me started. Work always seems to get in the way ::sigh::
  14. Good point and being a Mr. Mom and having raised my two kids on my own (grown now) I can relate to that 110%! We have control over who comes to our home and what home our kids go to. We can stop our kids from going to someone's home that doesn't live by what we consider acceptable standards, but we really don't have any control over the other people's home environment. And yeah, it does feel bad to be the "bad guy" but in the long run it's for a good cause. So we control what we have control over as best we can and hopefully we get good results, with our kids and our caches
  15. Not hard line about this, actually not any line at all. We're all individuals and have our own perspectives and I appreciate we're in all different directions, would be scary if we all thought the same way. And never said people "should" be allowed to play any game any way they want, I am saying they "do" and probably always will. That comes with being individuals. As cache owners we can just try to deal with that fact the best we can and IMHO the best way is lightheartedly.
  16. That's like kids saying some other parents let their kids do something so why can't they... being the "bad guy" kind of comes with the responsibility and you deal with it as best you can by your rules. You can control what your kids do and where they can go, but I doubt seriously you contact the other parents and tell them to stop letting their kids do something so you don't have to deal with your kids complaining. Each owner's caches are theirs and when it comes down to it, that's all they have control over.
  17. We should pick such a date. On that date everyone commit to hiding an ammo can under the courthouse steps, a nano in a National Park and a pipe with end caps under a railroad bridge near a chemical plant. You left out the ammo can at the gate entrance for the nulear power plant, the decon half way up the microwave broadcast tower, the black squirt gun container under the front steps at the police station, and the briefcase hide in the waiting room at the airport
  18. This would have to rank up there with the email reply "Thanks!" followed by the email reply "No problem!" followed by the email reply "Anytime!" and all with the complete previous dozens of emails included and everyone CC'ed. Ahhhh, the lost art of communication skills. I just dislike the fact you can't fully delete them. Maybe we could sell them half price to the next person posting? There is fine line there, but if one previews the message and actually re-reads their message before hitting ADD REPLY then it should be okay. But we're still hoping it can be! Agreed! I like being able to quote from several previous messages at once so when you see snippets from several posts you want to reply to you don't have to post several different replies. Makes it easier for people to skip by your comments if they want
  19. Bogus logs are bad and wrong but so are billions of other minor things that we see (and do) every day. So regardless of the seemingly endless debates on how evil, damaging or bad bogus logs are, or can be, each cache is an owner's property and how they handle anything regarding that hide is totally up to them. If they leave bogus logs on the cache page, or don't maintain their hides, or don't repair or replace them when needed, or don't post proper terrain, difficulty or attributes, or describe it properly, or give helpful hints, or keep a useable log sheet in the cache, or don't deactivate them when missing, or anything that impacts that particular cache, then that is an individual situation with an individual cache and an individual owner. Other then implementing and enforcing more strict and more encompassing rules by GC, it is, and always will be, an owner's right to interpret the rules and deal with their hides as they see fit. GC brings cachers and owners together, after that it's up to the owner on how to handle everything except gross negligent violations. And it's totally up to a cacher to decide what caches to seek and accept the risks (and rewards) of doing it. IMHO things that are bigger issues then bogus logs : - Cachers who don't re-hide caches properly of close containers tightly - People who trash what used to be beautiful hide locations - Owners who don't maintain their hides These things occur daily (if not more frequent then that), are verifiable problems and truly impact the fun of the game. Other the hypothetical situations, bogus caches seem to only be a problem because they occasionally exist.
  20. So if you don't follow the letter of the law (or rules) of a game then you are not playing the game? Or is there some gray area (and who would decide that gray area)? I guess in that same sense if you exceed the speed limit you're not driving either, you're just horsing around on the road with a car I think you can play pool or your can play PBA tournament rules pool. I think you can play golf, or you can play PGA rules golf. I just think it's the other way around, the majority of people play the "game" but it's the professional handful of people in competitive situations that play the "professional rules game". If I'm playing pool, 99% of the time I'm goofing around, if it's highly competitive or for money then we're playing highly competitive hard line rules. Last I checked GC wasn't competitive at all but as soon as it is then I'm all for following the letter of the rules to a "t", until then I'm just having fun. Naw, my glasses are quite rosy , I just like debating (you couldn't tell? hehehe). It just baffles me when I see people get so hard line about stuff that should be lighthearted and fun. I'd don't think anyone will change their views on this but I just don't see that perspective on things as being very much fun, and life is too short to be taken so seriously. Guess I'd rather be the kid sneaking out of the classroom then the hall monitor trying to defend the rules, but I do understand this world is full of all types of people.
  21. Most puzzle caches are unique and don't follow any set rules of guidelines (I know, I own a handful of tough ones). A local cache named Phoney Music GC1BR3J was placed 4/29/2008. After crunching tons of options and wasting a few reams of paper I figured it out and got the FTF on 5/8/2008 and trust me, that was a painful week of brain strain. It's now more then 2 months later and no one else has managed to find it but many have asked me for hints. Needless to say I haven't given anything away as it's not my hide and anyone wanting a hint can ask the owner, after all, it's their cache and I have no right to broadcast what a week's worth of crunching got me... the only find, and possibly ruin the challenge the owner put out there. There was a thread on difficult puzzle caches a while back and my nephew (also into GC up in NC) and I took it upon ourselves to try to tackle a difficult puzzle even though the cache itself was in Germany. We nailed the puzzle after a few days and emailed the cache owner. He congradulated us and said we could log a find for figuring it out but we just posted notes. We liked the challenge of the puzzle, and being in German just added to the challenge, not taking a smilie for something we didn't actually find. The whole trick to a puzzle cache is determining the methodology behind the puzzle. If someone even mildly gave that away then the challenge is gone. And if someone did it in the forums not only is the challenge gone, but it's broadcast publicly to the entire geocaching community.
  22. Sounds like a lot more beer then I could afford....
  23. Double ditto on the thanks to reviewers and our local reviewer palmetto has been a pleasure to work with, she has a great sense of humor and as nice in person as she is online. She has helped with cache questions and hide issues in more ways then I could thank her for. I admire all reviewers for their dedication to put the time in that they do, and my hat tips to them for tolerating some of the &%&^*@& that some cachers toss their way while they still remaining civil and sane and keep doing it to advance the fun of the game. I guess working with palmetto is what keeps me out of those "having problems with my reviewer" threads as I haven't seen that, but then again a civil and understanding request usually gets a civil and understanding response. When is National Reviewer Appreciation Day????
  24. I don't think anyone disagrees that armchair caching is wrong, the debate seems to be to what lengths one goes to in order to validate and find out if it even occurred, and if it did, is the harm it may cause worth that effort? Spending 4 hours hiking to a cache so someone can delete "TFTH" from their cache page because it was bogus doesn't seem like a lot of reward for the effort. Maybe a better way to determine this is to ask how many armchair caches everyone debating in here has found, how they discovered them (what raised the flag on them), and what they did about it? I think this question was brought up before and only one person chimed in about just a couple of caches, so from those kind of results it's such a minuscule and insignificant problem that it hardly warrants debate. Oh yeah, I'll chime in first. I own over 250 active hides of all flavors, I maintain them to the tune of a couple maintenance runs a week, have been caching for about 3 years and have not had a single armchair or bogus cache pop up to my attention. Deleted a grand total of one log entry because of the abusive verbal nature of the post.
  25. Huzzah is in the guidelines! hehehehe.... IMHO and in summary, GC provides a forum (so to speak) that brings cachers and cache owners together. What constitutes a "find" on someone's owned cache is up to that individual owner to decide. If the cacher doesn't follow that owner's personal rules then the owner can take action such as deleting the cacher's log. Owners are expected to follow the basic guidelines of GC but they have ultimate control over their hide, their log sheet, their swag and their cache's online log entries. The only means to which any owner has to try to push their personal intrepretation of a "find" on anyone else, is posting in threads such as this.
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