Ramblin Rover

Oh.. so much invective here. Half-truths, anger. Lets cut to the chase: 1. GC.com has a right o run its business as it sees fit. 2. The real issue is about controlling geocaching for profit. Not gc.com, but geocaching the sport. That is why the current topic is an issue. That is why so many other sites have come and gone, why access is closed, why open discussion is not allowed, etc. UtahAdmin is challenging the geocahing giant and they don't like it. That is to be expected. This will work out in the end and hopefully we will all be better off for it.

Just wanted to point out that to non-players, all geoaches are suspicious. Oh, and don't believe everythign you read. --RR

From Justin Sane's post quote: I will NOT support a totalitarian regime that looks down on or penalize folks who geocache infrequently or are from other states. This is certainly a different way to word the original idea of removing caches placed in locations that violate land-use regulations. Let me try it this way... If dog owners clean up their own dog's doo doo, nobody cares if the dogs doo doo or where they doo doo it. But, if you have to clean it up for them you will eventually grow tired of poop-scooping and disallow dogs. My suggestion was at the beginning, and still is, that caches that can jeopardize land use be removed by geocachers instead of leaving the responsibility to the various agencies and their employees who will eventually weary of the practice and stiffen resistance to geocaching. Now, Mr Sane, and anybody else who feels like extrapolating a mole hill into a mountain, where is the dictatorial, heavy-handed, holier than thou, ostracism in that? I'm ok with having my ideas criticized and rejected; just be sure that you understand my point before you jump off the top rope with a flying face lock. I have offered ideas and expect differing views. I hope tomorrow's discussion is as robust as it has been here as of late. In the end, I'm a team player as I think everyone else here is as well. Bob

I agree with Huaso and Tyler that a Utah club should promote geocaching and highlight the positive aspects we bring to the various areas of the state. As a whole, cachers are a great bunch of people. However, if we are unable to provide some level of reassurance to public land managers that their concerns are taken seriously by all geocachers, the availability of cache locations will begin to dwindle. I have been contacted by both state and federal representatives in the last week urging me to stress the importance of learning and following the various agencies' regulations regarding land use. I'll provide more information at the meeting tomorrow. Terms like "policing" or "enforcing" may seem very stern and austere; the fact is land managers have reservations about geocaching and it would be in our best interest to understand their perspective. When a cache ends up where it shouldn't be, who should remove it? The BLM? Forrest Service? State Parks? Or Us? What would be the most positive for all geocachers? Whether we have a club or not, to state and federal officials, we are all geocachers. If they don't like what "we're" doing, what will be the consequence and who will suffer? So, lets be proactive and positive. Bob

My doctor says caffeine bothers me. At any rate, I think most of us realize the setbacks geocaching could face if public land managers become frustrated with even one of our folks. Thats my concern. Didn't mean to overstate it or impugn the credibility of Msrs. Merriam and Webster. --RR

3A's&J: Who called you a casual cacher? Said you are dangerous? In my mind a "casual cacher" is one who does only a couple caches and quits thus never really learning the sport's etiquette. It may also be out-of-staters who bring traditions from other areas. There are also those who never maintain their placed caches. Just read the discussion boards and you can see all sorts of habits and traditions that spring up in various localities around the world. There is always a way to be offended if you seek it out. But like we both said in our posts, working things out is always an option. --RR

Cach-U-Nuts bring up a very good list of questions that I had hoped would be brough up and hashed out. So...Lets get to it. quote: I think the best way to contribute and get involved is to list here what you would like to see happen with a Utah Geo-caching association. Some of our thoughts.......... Do we want to form a group for each area of the state? Do we need elected officials? Do we want to have monthly meetings? An official Web site? Newsletter? Will we require membership w/dues? w/no dues? Has anyone out there put together an Association like this before? If so are you willing, and do you have the time to take on this project? It would be nice to get some idea of what UTAH CACHERS are interested in before the Aug 10th meeting so that we can ALL address these issues and ideas at the meeting. If we get a discussion going now, we'll be that much further ahead at the meeting. This is especially important for those who are not able to make the event! If you let us know now what your thoughts are we can address these at the event and report back to you what was discussed. Maybe we should start a new thread since this one has gotten a bit long? BTW yes.....we're feeling a bit guilty for not getting the forums page going yet! It's not for lack of good intentions, cause we're full of those!! WE'RE Begging for ideas.....someone out there get this discussion going pleeeeeeese!!! Personally, I'd like to see a statewide organization that is split into regions. This may be a bit difficult at first if participation from some parts of the state is sparse. Nevertheless, this concept could be developed over the first year (or whatever) as more cachers come on board. I like the idea of chosen leadership for each region and the statewide org. This allows for accountable representation and give everyone a voice in who takes the lead. I envision a one or two year cycle for re-selection of leadership. The frequency if meetings within regions should be chosen by them. Regional and state leaders could meet quarterly and perhaps one or two statewide events per year rotating through the various regions. An official web site and newsletter are essential to sharing ideas and connecting with one another. Resources, trips, events, etc. may best be communicated this way. It will keep everyone informed and connected to the rest of the group no matter where they live. As for dues, I'm torn, but some money to pay for minimal expenses may be necessary. Perhaps a further discussion on fund raising and revenue generating can be had. What constitutes a member? Living in Utah? Joining? Paying? I don't know. I lean toward not signing up everyone and making them have to remove their name from the rolls if they never wanted to join in the first place. I guess its all those telemarketing schemes that make me feel this way. Some folks will not want to belong and thats ok. However I do feel that a Utah club needs to take responsibility for all geocaching in Utah, and if that means removing a non-members cache (only if it jeopardizes geocaching in a given area) then we need to take the necessary steps to handle the problem and work closely with the errant cacher. In other words, casual cachers or intrusive caches in Utah have the potential to harm the sport region/state wide. We should be willing to work through any issues that might arise yet work very hard to not create an us vs. them (members vs. non-members) situation. These are some of my thoughts. I remain open to ideas and will follow this discussion closely. I am looking forward to see what direction this whole thing goes. See you on the 10th. --RR

I just got done listing the cache. Y'all come. --RR

I have been contacting Utah geocachers to inform them of this topic. For many I have used the "email this user" feature at geocaching. One line in the e-mail says the following: "I am compiling a master list of Utah geocachers. If you would like to be on it (and get a copy of it) please e-mail me (Ramblin Rover) with your geocaching name, e-mail address, city in Utah, and as much of your real name as you wish to reveal." Someone has complained to geocaching.com that I am soliciting personal information and I have been asked to stop. Who of you feels threatened, voilated, put upon, strong-armed, abused, coerced, tricked, hacked, hassled, beguiled, or otherwise unsafe by this statement? Who among you is so anti-social that this statement is cause to complain? Wouldn't it be logical to just not respond? Or, do you think I am violating the "email this user" privelege? --RR

What SirGerald and Skyjellyfetti have suggested regarding a statewide organization with regional subunits seems to make a lot of sense to me. This has been discussed before and I believe that it is the way we should go. The purpose of the August 10, meeting is to make that determinaiton. Thus, the importance of getting everyone involved either in person or via this and other discussion forums. Note: Did everyone see what happened in Co. Springs? No more caching in city parks. Yikes, I hope we can avoid that throughout our fair state. --RR

Thanks Cach-U-Nuts for the e-mail addresses you have. I also have a few. If anyone else out there has a list they've compiled and would like to share please send it to me. Also, anyone who would like to be on an e-mail list, drop me a line. Beginning on Moday, July 1, I will begin e-mailing all Utah geocachers. I just hope I don't have to do very many the slow "e-mail this user" route. --RR

I too want to get as many people to attend as possible, but I think centering the meeting around SLC area cachers has the potential to alienate the rest of the state. We hinterland dwellers have been living this us vs. them situation in many aspects of Utah life for a long time. The geographic center of Utah is near Ephraim, the population center is near Thanksgiving Point. That makes Levan or Nephi or Spanish Fork a pretty good compromise in my mind. I also agree the word needs to get out more. Any suggestsion on ways besides listing a cache? I can start e-mailing everyone I can think of to alert them of the situation and try to get them involved. --RR

Is there availability at the park? Is there somehwere in Levan that is not reserved? This sounds very good to me. Anyone else have any input on the location, we need to settle on one pretty quickly. --RR

I used to live in Southern Utah. Beaver seems a bit south to me, but I have no objections to traveling. Do you have a suggestion of a location in Beaver? --RR

Has anyone located any areas yet? Does anyone have any opinions or ideas that they would like to share and discuss here? --RR

I forgot to mention that Cach-U-Nuts will be giving away a brand new Magellan Sportrac GPSr at the meeting ($300 value). I'm not certain but it may be based on a game he recently started. Craig: can you claify this? --RR

Attendtion Utah Geocachers: Please alert all of your geofriends and other interested parties. Recently a group of Utah geocachers got together and decided that it is time to form a local/statewide organization. It was determined that an event would be held on August 10 to meet, discuss possible organizational structure, vote on leadership, etc. The time and location are still to be determined. If you have any ideas of a park or other public place that is central to Utah geocachers (from Four Corners to Grouse Creek) please make the suggestion in this thread. A nearby campground for travelers might be helpful. If you cannot attend the meeting Cach-U-Nuts is working on a discusson forum and possibly a way to cast a vote through his website at www.cachunuts.com There are mostly pros to organizing into a club/group/association or whatever we eventually call it. Let me list a few to get the discussion going. 1. As an organization we can speak with one voice when negotiating with the city, county, state, and federal land managers and agencies in the state. This issue is critical if we are to continue our good relationship with these individuals and organizations. Many people do not realized the gray area we are in with public land management or the sometimes very thin line we walk. Having our sport eliminated from various agencies lands could be devastating. We must beging to police ourselves. 2. Resources can be pooled to aid geocachers throughout the state. Extra or unused GPSr's, topo maps, compases, and the like can be donated to the club for use by those just beginning, by those who don't have access to them, or others with a need. 3. Individuals who are willing to share resources such as 4WD vehicles or digital cameras can feel more comfortable in requesting company on caching adventures or requesting to ride along with someone else. 4. Events, games, and get togethers can be more frequent or localized for oulying areas of the state. It also encourages different individuals to participate in the organiztion of these events. 5. To promote geocaching in Utah, an organization can develop positive relationships with local media, sponsors, and event venues. It also gives them a point of contact for questions. It allows us more credibility as a sport when expressing points of view on various issues. Please discuss these issues with other cachers and on this thread. Become involved in the exchange of ideas and information. Then, on August 10, those who choose to participate will have a chance to help shape the future of geocaching in Utah. --RR

As everyone knows, the tragic kidnapping of Elizabeth Smart continues to grip our State and nation. We as geocachers are out and about as much as anyone. We dig, we scrounge, we hunt, we hike, we explore, we watch, we observe, and we care. Many carry digital cameras and know the hills and trails very well. As a father of two young children I urge all of you to keep an eye out for this young girl or any sign of her presence. On June 12, SLC police released a description of a suspicious person who is wanted for questioning in regard to Elizabeth's abduction. Green 1997 Saturn. Utah plates 266-XJH. Bret Michael Edmunds, 6'2", 235 lbs. Do not approach this individual if you see him. Take a picture, take a waypoint, and call the police. You can see his picture and read the full story at www.ksl.com Lets do our part as geocachers, as parents, and as caring people. --RR

Lately I have become aware of several caches that have been rejected. Nearly all by the same individual who rejected yours. It seems to me that some perameters need to be set so that reviewers cannot be so subjective (as kind a word as I can muster) in the approval process. The rationale that the cache is "too elitist" is assenine. All difficult caches are elitist then. Can it be implied that caches that require 4WD's, digital cameras, etc. are not accessible to out of town passersby or those with less skills or money and are therefore not acceptable. I don't mean to sound angry, but I am frustrated that the "opinions" of unknown people in unknown places are beginning to drive a wedge into geocaching. A cache of mine was recently rejected (with some good reasoning), and I was told that a policy is being developed. My suggestion is to get it done and make it available to everyone. How can we be held to standards that are not written and not posted? Therein lies the problem. Bob

I just spent a week in the Omaha area and had an opportunity to do quite a bit of geocaching. There are quie a few differences that I noticed so I thought I'd share them with everyone here in Utah. The Nebraskans use a far smaller percent of ammo cans than do we. I think I was on about my twelfth or fifteenth cache before I hit my first ammo can. They tend to disquise their containters with paint, camo fabric or contact paper, etc. quite a bit. Far more than we do here. The terrain is considerably flatter and therefore very little ascending is necessary. Here it is common to hike several miles up steep hills, foothills, mountains, etc. to get to a cache. Not so in Nebraska. They just don't have the terrain for it. Notwithstanding the flatter terrain, I think they hide their caches better the we do here. The understory is deep grass, ferns, plants, ivy, etc. and its all thick. Fallen trees abound making for great hiding places and consideralbe confusion. In Utah we typically put caches under sage bushes or rocks. Here in Utah I rarely search for more than fiften or twenty minutes to locate a cache. In Nebraska I frequently searched for more than an hour. Our climate and geography provide open spaces and theirs provides a generally thick and dense canopy overhead. This of course creates quite a contrast in satelite reception. I found it more difficult to get decent reading there. In short, we work harder to get to our caches, they work harder to find theirs. The people are great in both places; always freindly and always fun. Anyway, I thought I'd share this cursory comparrison of two communities. Has anyone else noticed differences in geocaching? Beit for geography, culture, population, weather, etc. I'd love to hear other differences. Bob

...in the Ogden paper. Said it was free but required registration by the third. It went on to say that there would be a class on GPSing and geocaching, caching contests, and prizes. Anyone here involved in this class, demo, contest? Bob

If you have a rental car, go west. There are plenty of caches along I-80 and/or along the west side of the valley. By doing this you can avoid heading into the city and all of its accompanying traffic. Have fun caching. Bob

No offense taken. Where you at? Come join the fun.

I hope to cache while the wife visits with her family. We should plan some time to get togehter and hit a few of the more difficult caches in the area. It might be a touch more successful and fun by working as a team. Drop me an e-mail, I'm not sure if I still have your phone number from the travel bug adventure. Bob

Actually I am 36 and not looking for sexual liaisons with anyone but my wife. Since that seems to be what is on your mind, perhaps it is best I do my Omaha geocaching alone. Too bad, I had anticipated you would be a friendlier crowd.