Zekester & Simon

Some interesting discussion here and a few viable ideas, but my key suggestion stands: I bought theTB number so control of whether it can be treated as a discoverable should be upturn to me. That should not be a go/no-go of "it is in circulation or not" (which is what the current ability to place it in a "collection" does. That choice should still exist, but an additional choice as to whether the TB can be logged using a discovery log should be added. I would choose to have my traveling trackables not be loggable as discoverable. There are some trackables I own that I would choose to allow discovery logs on (the sticker on my truck or the tag on my dog come to mind). My tattoo is a special case, and is a more difficult issue. The twit who has photos (for which they did not obtain my permission) posted of it in their Pinterest page refuses to take it down, so I receive almost daily logs (SPAM) on that from people all over the world. I'm thinking I'd be eliminating discovery on that too, but might turn it on fo a bit fo you to log a discovery if you had met me.

@MtnGoat50 I appreciate the suggestion, but I avoid any involvement at all with Facebook.

@cerberus1 Well aware of posted or passed lists of TB codes, a photo of my tattoo has long been on Pinterest, and I am spammed daily on that one. What puzzled me about this scenario was that I got the email notification of a log on the TB, but when I went to the TB's page, there was no log entry to match. If Groundspeak has implemented a crack-down in some manner, it is only partially working if I still get spammed with an email notification for a log that they determined is bogus. The solution to all of this is to allow the TB owner to determine whether or not their trackable is discoverable. Simple and to the point. There was a time when discovery logs did not exist. Allowing the TB owner (who owns the trackable and has supported Groundspeak by purchasing the trackable code) to opt out of discovery is the best answer.

I am well aware false discovery logs. Over the past few days a new twist. I have had a number of email notifications for Groundspeak that my trackable, "Green Rules" https://coord.info/TBJJGF has been discovered. It went missing in 2005, and has been marked missing since then. While there is an off- chance that someone has actually found it and entered it back in the system, none of the logs that I have received email notification for in the last few days show up on the TB's log page. Huh? Anyone has any idea of how that is happening, I'd like to hear about it.

I have found cremains while searching for a cache in Nevada, and a body adjacent to a night cache in Florida. In the case of the body, it was another cacher who had fainted in fright due to the way the night cache was set up.

Trackable disocvery logs by someone who has never physically touched the trackable they are logging. But even more so, the fact the Groundspeak does not make it possible for trackable owners to disable discoverability on their trackables.

Yesterday I received email notification of discovery on 13 of my TBs all of which have been missing since at least 2010. The new twist is that if you go to the web page for any of those TBs, there is no discovery log on the page. The last entry for each one is the entry where I marked it as missing. Odd.

This option does not just make them undiscoverable, it removes them from play. It misses the point entirely, because then the TB cannot be logged as grabbed, dropped or retrieved in addition to not being able to be logged ads discovered. The choice of whether or not a trackable should be able to receive discovery logs should be left to the TB owner (who paid for that number), it should not be a choice between it is completely out of play or in play.

Lanyarded to your GPS, or around your neck works well. Similarly, attached to a hat...many folks still don footwear while caching in this way, so that offers another opportunity. The other possibilities can be less comfortable.

Here's an interesting exchange I recently had with someone who logged a few discoveries on TBS we released in 2005 and 2006, that have been missing since 2007. Curious if they had actually re-appeared, we contacted the logger to inquire as two what the back story. Below is the resulting conversation: Anberta Aug 23, 2017 6:14 AM Hi Zekester & Simon, i found an old list from my friend and i log the TBs... I don't really seen the TBs, but i log them... If you don't like, I apologize for the inconvenience, delete my log. Thanks for for comprehension. Anberta You Aug 23, 2017 6:18 AM Why log numbers from a list? What is the appeal of that? Anberta Aug 23, 2017 6:22 AM Only statistic and race with my friend, nothing with geocaching game... Ask forgiveness if i'm wrong .... I do not know the owners, we have fun logging TBs found on the net and among friends. So here we have non-cachers leveraging Groundspeak's system to create a competitive game amongst themselves. Adds an interesting twist to the discussion.

Did not find anything in the guidelines on this question, which came up at a recent event.

A condom, still in the wrapper, autographed by "Smokey" in a cache outside the pinball museum in Las Vegas comes to mind. Cremains in the desert, still in the bag and box from the crematorium.

Project-GC has a rescue tool for travel bugs you might like to explore: PGC TB Rescue This shows local caches that may or may not have TBs, where the TB owner is trying to find out if their TB is still there, or get it moved if stalled.

Not false at all. I've received a couple dozen emails from TOs thanking me for Discovering their trackable (with sometimes an included pic). As you say, it's in the wording... I haven't had a single Discover log deleted. I believe it's simply because of mention where it was found, maybe what condition it's in (and whether it was fixed a bit), and might include a pic. - Which doesn't resemble a "looked at list. Greetings from..." or "misha had this on his blog" log at all... Perhaps we could meet somewhere in the middle. "Not false" at all is the other extreme of what I see. I have the following discovery logs on my tattoo in the last 18 hours or so: - Seen on an event (Google translate from, German) - Randomly seen in the I-Net. Thank you for showing me. - Thanks for the TB discovery ! - Seen on the internet, Thank you for sharing...(Google translate from, French) - thanx for showing. - Discovered it. Thank you for sharing. - Thanks for pointing. [] (Google translate from, German) - Thank you for showing me. [] (Google translate from, German) - Seen.(Google translate from, German) - This past year can spot somewhere. Thx for sharing (Google translate from, German) -Today even taken the time to Tb that I saw last year and I had to discount spring photos. What I've just seen I do not remember but most of events. (Google translate from, Dutch) Last year seen anywhere. probably at an event. thanks (Google translate from, Dutch) - Today even taken the time to Tb that I saw last year and I had to discount spring photos. What I've just seen I do not remember but most of events. (Google translate from, Dutch) - same cacher logged twice - thx for sharing - Thanks for sharing , keep it safe always - Discovered it. None of these give status, or say where it really was. Given that I have not run into any Dutch, German or French folks in the last day or so, and I have been wearing long pants (tattoo's on the leg) Think we know where we are at here. I always know where the tattoo is, so that is jot as much of an issue for me, except for the constant spam. Here's all the discovery logs in the last 24 hours for other TBs we own: Other TBs: - Discovered in the hands of Bob From Elsewhere at a Donerstag event. - Found in a letterboxcache (Google translate from, Dutch) - Seen in Geocaching Club fb. Regards (Google translate from Spanish) - Seen in Geocaching Club fb. Regards (Google translate from Spanish) - Saw at Facebook. Thank you. - Seen in FB :-) (Google translate from, German) - Spotted on Facebok. Thanks. CZ (Google translate from, Czech) - Spotted on Facebok. Thanks. (Google translate from, Czech) - On Facebook discovered a good trip. (Google translate from, German) - On FB..Thanks. - Visions on the event in the Budapesti. Google translate from, Russian) - Thank you for sharing (Google translate from, French) - Vienna farewell of winter :-) (Google translate from, Czech) - Seen on Facebook (Google translate from, German) - Seen on Facebook (Geocaching Club). Thank you (Google translate from, German) Of the 15, 10 were on Facebook, two mention locations, Vienna and Budapest, but is that were the TB was seen, or where the cacher was when they copied the list? The other three are generic. So 21 spam discovery emails in the last 24 hours. Light day, actually. There were hundreds over the weekend what with the Donnerstag souvenir events. Cerberus1, your experience seems to be very different than mine, these are very typical of what I get in discovery logs, no status, no photos, no mention of location. 95% or better are I saw it on the internet somewhere. Commonest mentioned locations are Internet, Facebook and Pinterest. To my point, none of these logs serve any real purpose to the TB owner. Granted one could easily say the same for many cache ing logs, "TFTC," etc. My point remains the same. Groundspeak should grant my control of what logs I receive.

There are lots of aspects or options in geocaching writ large that don't necessarily appeal to us. That's OK, because there are also many, many aspects of the hobby that do. That's one of the things we like bets about it, the fact that many folks with different priorities can all play the game together and still find common bonds. So that numbers folks, statistics folks or whatever you want to call the cachers who find value in collecting the virtual souvenirs that Groundsopeak offers, collecting TB icons, or filling out their profiles all have a place in the game. That being said, there are consequences of some of these activities, albeit unintended, that harm others, and that is where we believe Groundspeak needs to step in and provide guidance, tools, and implement changes that limit harm done while maintaining the viability of as much of the given activity as possible. You have no idea how much we hesitate to say that; for two primary reasons: our view as that Groundspeak has consistently done a poor job of that when they have attempted it at all, and we feel that limiting geocaching (which has often been their response in many cases) is a poor choice compared to expanding what it can be. Our view is that we bought the TB tag, coin or number, and therefore, we should be the one's who get to decide how it is utilized in the game (discoverable or not). The solution implemented thus far does not give us that choice, it is all or nothing. Either the trackable is locked and no logs cane made, or it is play and any logs can be made. Another question is who is harmed and how much. How many of us are getting hundreds or thousands of emails at a whack as these lists get passed around and websites with lists get published? We own 831 trackables, about 225 of those are geocoins that are not in circulation, and whose numbers are not out there. Put another way, we have about 600 trackables in circulation. Suspect we are in a minority amongst trackable owners in that we have so many out there, but this exacerbates the problem for us. The photos of individual tags or numbers or lists on Google, Pinterest, Photobucket, Facebook, and a myriad of other social media sites and webpages on the internet are out there, and the practice of posting them cannot realistically be stopped, nor can they realistically be removed. You can shoot a photo of my trackable tattoo from across the room and I might not even know you have done so. Up it goes on the web somewhere, with good intent or not, and there it is. I get 10-15 discoveries on that alone every day, and an email for every one of them. Yes I can turn of email notifications, but again, Groundspeak has done that in an all or nothing sort of way; either I can turnoff all notifications, or none, not just discoveries. I can shift that tattoo into my collection, and shift it out again when I attend events, and maybe do that for the truck sticker as well, but I cannot reasonably do that do that for trackables the hundreds of other trackables i have that are meant to be traveling all the time, and i use the tattoo as a personal mileage tracker. For similar reasons, continually deleting logs is not s reasonable expectation either. The simple and straightforward solution is for Groundspeak to give the TB owner the choice as to whether or not their TB can receive discovery logs. Does this really harm the cachers who enjoy discovery? I think not, as many TB owners will never exercise that option. Coin collectors will still go to events with their binders and spreadsheet of coin codes. But is the problem a high enough priority for Groundspeak to move it up on their lists of things to do? I suspect not. They have limited resources, higher priorities, and have not received enough complaints about it. Maybe if we all forward all of the discovery logs we received to them with a complaint in each one, that would have an effect. More likely that'd shut down a server or two, be called a denial of service attack, and they'd suspend or eliminate our account. I would also like to note, for those that believe that discovery logs somehow "help" the trackable owner know that their trackable is still alive and moving, that is a false belief. It means the number is available to someone and they are using it. Less than 5% of the discovery logs we receive make any mention of where the TB was discovered or its condition. It is clear by most logs that they have not even read the trackable's page, and know nothing about its mission, goals or purpose.

There are also numerous "how=to" videos on youtube for replacing batteries in Nuvis.

Discovery logs have no geo-location associated with them, and thus cannot be used as a mileage tracker. I have no issue with "visit" logs, as the TB continues too accumulate mileage, and more from cache to cache. What irks me is the "discovery" log, which serves no useful purpose for the TB owner.

Weninget - Your attention is drawn to this thread: False discovery lkogs Cheers - Z

I just re-read this thread after receiving yet another few thousand discovery emails on our hundreds of TBs as their tracking numbers circulate through the Donnerstag events in Europe and elsewhere. The souvenir events are the worst, as that seems to be when the lists and the links to them circulate the most. I stand by my recommendation, that the TB owner should be the one who determines whether or not any trackable they own is discoverable. I paid for the tracking tag, number or geocoin, it should be my decision on whether or not I intend for that game piece to allow discovery logs. There are trac=king numbers I clearly intend to be discovered only, like the tag on my truck or the tattoo on my leg. False logs for those because of photos posted on Pinterest or Facebook are something I can control to some degree with the lock feature that was implemented. TBs that I have that are intended to move, like those in our Zombie Travel Bug Project (see ZTB ) discovery logs serve two purpose other than to inundate us with undesired logs and emails. It is unreasonable to expect us to lock/unlock hundreds of TBs for events weekends such as this, nor would we want to lock ALL logging, as we want the logs for when they move. Given that we've purchased 831 TB tags/coins, you'd think that level of investment would mean something to Groundspeak, but it does not. Today we got a discovery log on my tattoo from a fellow in the Netherlands, who kindly included a link to his website, which has links to thousands of TB and geocoin numbers, as well as many hundreds if not into the thousands of puzzle cache solutions, earth cache answers and lab cache answers. No doubt this is not the only such website. Both false logs and the discovery concept in general are deeply flawed. It is far past time for a change.

In the iPhone area, Apple is clearly moving towards 64 bit only apps. Has not happened yet, but it is on the horizon, and when they get there, all of the no-64 bit apps will be deprecated. Suspect this is why Groundspeak is moving from the old app to a new one. That being said, I agree with many that there implementation of the new app is poor, and their lack of transparency and failure to get input from their end users is disappointing, albeit the norm. About 65% of the catchers I know cache with a mobile phone as opposed to a GPSr. Of that group, I know no-one who uses Groundspeak's app (new or old). There are a lot of third party apps out there for both iPhone and Android, many with better feature sets and with developers who are more sensitive to and interested in their customer's needs. I've done well with a GPSr and a notebook since 2005, so I'll stick with that.

Adding the ability to use the functionality of the "personal cache notes" that you can use on every cache page would be extremely useful. Many puzzle cachers and multi-finders use this feature extensively.

I don't care much for puzzle caches, as I prefer to spend the limited time I have for geocaching finding caches as opposed to coordinates. In Maryland, there are a LOT of puzzle caches, and they are very popular amongst cachers here. There are monthly events that have been running for years that are gatherings of puzzle cachers collaborating to solve very difficult puzzles. All of which is too say that I am sympathetic to your plight. I live near a reservoir, with many caches hidden around it. In the guidelines, it states that the actual hide has to be within 2 miles of the posted coordinates of a mystery cache, if it is not hidden at those published coordinates. A two mile circle is a 12 square mile area where the actual hide could be. If you draw a two mile circle around all of the puzzle caches around the local reservoir, you effectively eliminate the entire reservoir property as a place to hide caches if you are a non-puzzler. I feel your pain. Solutions: 1 - Solve the puzzles, and save the solved coordinates in Google Earth, so you can check for yourself. Not my cup of tea. 2 - After you've done your site survey, contact all the closest puzzle and multi COs and ask them if your proposed coordinates are within 528 feet of their hides. May or may not work, the puzzlers may not want to reveal that to you. 3 - Email the local reviewer and ask if your coordinates would be allowable. This is likely the best solution given the current guidelines and state of affairs. Cache saturation is also a problem here. We have cachers that go into a park and bury it with caches placed IAW the guidelines, leaving no space for others to place hides. I know of folks who have purposefully hidden 20 stage multis to create a geographic placeholder in a park so that they can later eliminate stages of the multi one by one, and be able to hide quality traditionals in their place, before the park gets overrun by the power cachers. Sad that either of these scenarios exists, but that is the world we live in.

GarminArmin Have we seen what you are talking about? Sure. But we're also firm believers that geocaching, much like anything else, is what you make of it. We started in Connecticut in 2005, then moved to Maryland in 2006. Great fortune for us (which is not to say anything negative about Connecticut), as Maryland has a very engaged and pro-active local caching organization, the Maryland Geocaching Society. They host 6 events or so a year across the state, and are focused on what we think of as a quality caching experience. Since we've moved here, there have been numerous geo-trails established (not talking power trails, but rather a series of caches that take you to places of cultural interest), such as the Captain John Smith geo-trail, the Washington County geo-trail, the Star Spangled Banner geo-trail, and most recently, the Heart of the Civil War Heritage geo-trail, just to name a few. We hosted geowoodstock a year ago, and have hosted an annual event called Cache Across Maryland (CAM) annually for 15 years. Every one of the 10 hides placed across the entire state for last year's CAM were placed in National Parks, with permission. We tend to use the term"local" as most geocachers would, meaning at the least all adjacent states, and often something a bit further out than that. Locally (in West Virginia), we are most fortunate to have a very innovative geocacher by the name of WVTim, who's has created a number of geo-trails you may have heard of as well. More importantly, he hosts a geocaching seminar each March to welcome new cachers to the hobby, and provide veteran cachers with lessons taught by experts on aspects of interest. Following his lead, my wife and I established a geocaching symposium with much the same format hosted at a local university each fall. From a more personal standpoint, we host a monthly event that is in it's fourth year, at which we provide mini-lectures on aspects of the hobby. That started small, but rapidly developed a steady following of 20-25 people who attend each month. We promote quality caching at these events, and have been rewarded with a group of dedicated cachers (the Carroll County Caching Fellowship) who place great hides, and have a great sense of camaraderie. I would note that there are at least four or five events that are held routinely on a monthly basis across the state. One is dedicated to puzzle caches, which are a big thing here. For us, that is what has happened to geocaching. We've invested time, effort, energy, and have been very well rewarded. Wherever you live, you may not have some of the advantages we have here, but I would argue that we might not have much more than you other than dedicated cachers with vision who work hard to grow the community into what we think it should be. There is no doubt we've been challenged by some of the changes that have occurred at Groundspeak over the years, and we certainly have our fair share of power cachers, numbers hounds, and LPCs. Every place always will. But over the past two years, we've had a dedicated group of cachers not formally organized, but more of a grass roots effort, creating challenge caches where the challenge is to find the oldest 10 or 15 hides in each county in the state. I don't think they're done yet (challenge caches are not necessarily our thing), but they've made good progress, and those old caches, well, their the ones I'd bet you'd like to go after. So there is one seed idea for where you could start. If you build it, they will come. Here in Maryland, we're living proof of it. So while I hear your shock and dismay, and feel your pain, my recommendation is this: if your local caching community isn't what you want it to be, then lead by example, put in the time effort, energy, and most of all heart, and make it what you want it to be. Navigation is a metaphor for life; it is knowing where you are at and where you want to be. Geocaching is the pursuit of pleasure along that road (or up that tree, or under that lake, or in that cave...) Happy hunting! Zekester

We have a lot of trackables, and have not bothered to keep a database for most of them. On our profile, 823 are listed, but many of those are geocoins that have never moved. Our Zombie Travel Bug (ZTB) project, which started about four years ago (it will be four years in February) has 353 separate ZTBs thus far. of those, about 30 are missing over that time. Go here: ZTB Dispersion Map and you can toggle through them (arrows under the map) for some basic stats (number of caches they've been to, miles travelled). That may give you some rough idea. Our experience has shown that: - All TBs will eventually go missing. - Some TBs re-surface, even after many years of being off-the-grid. - There is a size to success ration. Our trackable bowling balls and bowling pins, as well as the harpoon and full scale mannequin, and the microwave oven have travelled, but not as much as those smaller items that fit in more caches. - Over time, the average cache size has gotten significantly smaller on all continents. That means there are fewer places to for cachers who respect and try to help TBs to place them. - When Groundspeak introduced the "discovery" type of log, it had a significant negative impact on TBs traveling. Some TBs (the sticker on my car, the tattoo on my leg) are meant to be discovery only, but most are intended to move. A lot of cachers do discovery, few read descriptions and goals. - Manage your expectations well. Forest fires consume caches that contain trackables. Floods wash away caches that contain trackables. Earthquakes bury 'em. Entropy happens. - People steal them, lose them, forget them in the bottom of the cache bag, or under the seat of their car. They attach them to their keys, drop them in caches but keep poor records and don't log them because they can't remember where they dropped them. Entropy happens and humans accelerate it. - Our experience has shown that Europeans are more conscientious about TBs. If your TB gets over there, it will be more likely to travel and stay alive than anywhere else. If all this sounds too negative.... We had somebody fly with one of our bowling balls from New England to Italy, and then bring it back because they couldn't find a chance they could fit it in there. One of our bowling pins has been in someone's wedding pictures. We've had a ZTB pass through a cache in Vatican City. We've had TBs re-appear after having been missing for over five years. Dedicated cachers take them directly to their goals, in other states, other countries, other continents. They can be a lot of fun. Patience, grasshopper. When i die, my ashes will be sealed in lucite, and I intend to carry on caching as a TB, or a few of them. That, by the way, is not an original idea, there's cachers out there now that are still traveling in that form. Here's a few fun ones: Blue Rules One of our earliest bugs Yet Another Pinhead Cache Harpoon Casey the Cacher Well you get the idea. Project-GC has a travel bug rescue page, where you can register "rescue missions" for your TBs that have been stuck in a cache for awhile. Do this routinely, and you will likely have more success as well.

Not all of us have this facility. I use a Mac. Does GSAK exist for Mac yet? It didn't used to. Try Project-GC. It is platform independent (web based), has scads of functionality, routinely updated in useful ways, and run by folks who value and respond to end-user input.