chachi44089

I don't think it is a lack of imagination, just the application of common sense. I've seen my share of caches that are hidden according to the rules, especially in urban surroundings, where the creativity of the hide is the cause of geocachers tearing up the surroundings and causing damage to property too, maybe not a tree or ground, but still damage. So for me the whole 'burying causes damage and might get geocaching banned' argument is moot, since the same applies to all non buried caches too. You could hide a bloody magnetic nano in a lamp post in the parking lot of your local ACME and get geocaching banned on their properties worldwide. Same effect, even though the cache wasn't buried. You totally missed my point. My point was not about damage to the surrounding area. It's about how land managers perceive our game and decide to ban caching on their lands because they think cachers are going to show up with shovels in hand. Land managers do not have to understand our game to ban it. To me common sense dictates that we don't hide caches in ways that can mislead land managers to think that our game may be bad for thier lands. Common sense would say it's not worth the risk. But that is exactly what I want: let the land manager decide if he/she wants to allow a buried cache and the possible consequences or not. I just feel that the current 'no burying whatsoever' rule overshoots its target. And for me the same applies to other hiding forms, just check if it is allowed with the appropriate owner/organisation. It's sure not what I want!! I don't want to put any land manager in the position where he might ban caching. Common sense tells me not to do that. Land managers in the US are very sensitive to people digging in their areas, possibly due to the popularity of metal detecting. Most lands for public use here include in their rules of use that no digging is allowed. Maybe it works differently where you are but here's how it goes over here.... Cacher calls land manager - "Hello sir. I am a geocaching enthuiast and would like to know if I can hide a container on your land. I would like to bury it in the ground so my fellow geocachers will think it is a really cool way to hide my geocache, and it's really the best way to hide what I have in mind. My common sense tells me I need to dig on your land to make my hide work." Land manager answers cacher - "Geo-whatting?? People burying things on MY land? How do I make sure no one can do this on MY land??" Just asking can get caching banned. Then all the other cachers who would have placed guideline compliant caches in the area are out of luck. Not a good idea, when burying is not an integral part of caching (nor does it need to be). Why insinuate to some uneducated land manager that it's part of the game, when Groundspeak has been trying to stop just this perception for years? It was just one buried cache that got caching banned in our National Parks system, blocking many tens of thousands of acres from cachers. I think the "no burying whatsoever" guideline is one of the reasons that some of the more enlightened land managers DO allow caching on their lands. They know they never have to worry about someone burying a cache on their lands. They don't have to worry that there might be some cases where burying is allowed. It makes it an easy decision to allow caching on their lands that way. that is how I feel and what I have tried to say.You verse it much better than me.Thank you.I even posted this link for him to read.Its a bunch of state parks and their take on digging holes.I dont think he even looked at it. http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oGkz...t-701&sao=0

You seem to be the only one here who wants to bend or break the rules after many members have told you its a bad idea,and why.Over and over.Maybe you should ask the heads of Geocaching.com to let you be exempt from the rules.Let me know how that works out.

Ask him if they'd mind overnighting it to you for your inconvenience? It's the least they can do for the lost time ... And it can't hurt to ask. Be safe. N A replacement Endura Out&Back is shipping out today via UPS NDA. Let's hope the weather stays nice so that you can get out and use it this weekend. Not shipped NDA,but ground.Oh well,its on its way.Should be here monday or tuesday.I want to get out and cache!! Chachi, Sorry about the shipping mess up, I asked CS to make sure it shipped out NDA, the order was written up as NDA then shipping goes ahead and sends it ground. I have a little gift in the mail for you. Once again Sorry, EnduraExpert No big deal.My wife says I am worse than a kid when it comes to patience.I have to agree.And a gift?Gotta go..getting my lawn chair and setting up camp by the mailbox! snail-mail..arrgh!

I was just going to ask the same question.One was posted not too long ago but I cant find it or remember who wrote it.Maybe it was Knowschad.Sorry if I am mistaken.

Ask him if they'd mind overnighting it to you for your inconvenience? It's the least they can do for the lost time ... And it can't hurt to ask. Be safe. N A replacement Endura Out&Back is shipping out today via UPS NDA. Let's hope the weather stays nice so that you can get out and use it this weekend. Not shipped NDA,but ground.Oh well,its on its way.Should be here monday or tuesday.I want to get out and cache!!

I dont know Juniper,I guess in your country if they let you dig then there isnt much I can do to convince you its not cool.And I dont feel much like arguing about who the environment belongs to.That point really doesnt matter anyways.Parks and such here are very picky about what you do in them,you cant cut trees,take rocks from creekbeds,take plants and you sure cant dig holes.Most of the parks here are open to geocaching,they are run by Erie Metroparks.These parks have many caches hid in them,some by the park staff themselves.None buried.And that is also their rule.They have to approve the location,as well as the reviewer.A buried cache would not only break our rule but theirs too.And could result in caches being banned in all the parks under their controle.That would result in a heck of a lot of caches being archived.Not something I would want to be responsible for just because i didnt follow the rules to the letter.I am new to this game and so far I love it.I dont want to see it banned in my area or anywhere else as a result of not following a simple written rule.That result would also shine a negative light on this game to the non-player community. http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oGkz...t-701&sao=0

Every guideline is there for a reason. There is a history. It's not about saving the daisies. I know I'm not the first person to say this in this thread. What they said above!

Where do you find the "cheapy" ones?

EnduraExpert just e-mailed me and a new GPS in in the mail.Sweet!Even gave me 6 free maps from mapselect for my trouble.I cant say enough about Lowrance customer service and EnduraExpert.They stayed in contact and kept me informed about everything.It feels very reassuring to have a company go out of its way to fix a problem with a product,and actually put the customer first.They are definitely the model for business.Thank you EnduraExpert and Lowrance.

Nicely stated.

I can go along with that.Placing one in a divit or depression and brushing some leave and debris over it.I only have an issue with using a shovel and burying wood boxes or buckets.

So, if I place my cache container on the ground, build a wooden box around it with a hatch, bring enough sand to cover it up when I dump it over it, I'm technically following the rules since I haven't used something pointy and someone that finds the cache also doesn't have to use something pointy since he can just open the hatch that is covered in a very thin film of sand. How is that different from burying the same box flush with the ground? What if you bring in a power washer and use the jet of water do excavate a hole? You aren't using a pointy object. What if you let your dog dig the hole? You didn't do it. You can go on and on with the what ifs. The fact of the matter is that most park managers don't want people digging up their parks. I also doubt they would be thrilled with someone dumping a load of sand in the park. I feel we are just not getting through.This type of unwillingness to follow the rules is the type of attitude that is bad for this game. Apparently it is so bad for the game that all these fantastic, buried and thus illegal, caches get placed over here that thousands of geocachers enjoy and that bother absolutely no one except someone that interprets the rules in a very strict manner. Yes it is.Just like you said"buried and thus illigal".I dont care if they are fantastic.I play by the rules as not to ruin the game for my fellow players by ignoring them.

It doesnt really matter who places it,adults will still come to find it.Not good.

So, if I place my cache container on the ground, build a wooden box around it with a hatch, bring enough sand to cover it up when I dump it over it, I'm technically following the rules since I haven't used something pointy and someone that finds the cache also doesn't have to use something pointy since he can just open the hatch that is covered in a very thin film of sand. How is that different from burying the same box flush with the ground? What if you bring in a power washer and use the jet of water do excavate a hole? You aren't using a pointy object. What if you let your dog dig the hole? You didn't do it. You can go on and on with the what ifs. The fact of the matter is that most park managers don't want people digging up their parks. I also doubt they would be thrilled with someone dumping a load of sand in the park. double post..oops

So, if I place my cache container on the ground, build a wooden box around it with a hatch, bring enough sand to cover it up when I dump it over it, I'm technically following the rules since I haven't used something pointy and someone that finds the cache also doesn't have to use something pointy since he can just open the hatch that is covered in a very thin film of sand. How is that different from burying the same box flush with the ground? What if you bring in a power washer and use the jet of water do excavate a hole? You aren't using a pointy object. What if you let your dog dig the hole? You didn't do it. You can go on and on with the what ifs. The fact of the matter is that most park managers don't want people digging up their parks. I also doubt they would be thrilled with someone dumping a load of sand in the park. I feel we are just not getting through.This type of unwillingness to follow the rules is the type of attitude that is bad for this game.

I'm having trouble understanding this. I don't mean you any disrespect but it seems like you're saying that there is an age at which your kids would be old enough to cache alone but not old enough to go into a park alone. I don't think a geocache in a park near a school is going to be the tipping point that attracts more sexual predators or that predators shop for parks, near schools, and that have geocaches in them. Predators will be were there are children- period. I also think, and what I've read seems to support this, that you're child is more likely to encounter a predator that they already know that an stranger in the park. I know this is a very touchy subject and I don't want to come across as second-guessing your motivations, or your parenting. Well, my parenting is a little off kilter as we have moved from a rural area where everyone knew everybody (and their business) to a large town where we know nobody. It is hard to be articulate on this subject, its not an easy subject for any of us to discuss, and if I find out some of my fears or assumptions are ill-founded, that's not a bad thing. Not sure what schools are generally like in USA but in the UK a lot of parks ARE a part of the school. The school grounds extend to a public park with no real boundary. You have said it yourself, Predators are where children are, and some try to get to know children by being a familiar face on the way home. The complete stranger in a rural area, park or otherwise is a lot easier to ignore and steer away from the the friendly, helpful person who says something to you every day (maybe for legitimate reasons) but you have no idea who they really are. On my child's first walk to school here, there was a man on the pavement in her way. My child said excuse me, to get to the crossing and 2 older kids from the same school said not to talk to him 'because he's a Perve'. When home, we talked about how the man might have different boundaries than most people and went over good body language (and a bit about self defence). I suppose what I'm saying is yes, there's an age at which children have more freedom to roam (and I'm talking teenagers, not little kids) but I wouldn't want them hanging around in a city park. Cycling through on the way to a sports event or weekend class, no problem. Cache walking with friends through semi-remote countryside in good weather with the knowledge of how to keep time, read a map, use a GPS and mobile phone I would accept before I let them spend an afternoon hanging out in a city park by their school holding that kind of gear. I can agree with what you say.But not all schools have parks attached to them.And I think the point was weather it is a good idea for adults to geocache on or near school property.

So, if I place my cache container on the ground, build a wooden box around it with a hatch, bring enough sand to cover it up when I dump it over it, I'm technically following the rules since I haven't used something pointy and someone that finds the cache also doesn't have to use something pointy since he can just open the hatch that is covered in a very thin film of sand. How is that different from burying the same box flush with the ground? Are you just trying to find an excuse to justify your point?If that remark was serious then might I suggest you grow a hollow tree instead. I have to admit the growing hollow trees would be a fantastic solution, if possible... But I'll take my argument even one step further: This local rule would even prohibit placing a cache according to your interpretation of the rules as placing a cache in the ground would definitely disturb the soil, vegation or possibly stones, certainly when stones are used to cover up the cache to form a SPOR (suspicious pile of rocks). I have absolutely no problem with the rules that the area enforces, I would just mean that there probably won't be many caches placed, I certainly wouldn't want to place one there. The amout of caches placed is not limited by not being able to bury them.It is only limited by the imagination or creativity of the people who hide them within the guidlines of the game.There are hundreds of caches in my area and none are buried.Dont let the rule hold you back from making caches,use you imagination and create them according to the rules.I feel the caches that people put alot of thought into are the best.

So, if I place my cache container on the ground, build a wooden box around it with a hatch, bring enough sand to cover it up when I dump it over it, I'm technically following the rules since I haven't used something pointy and someone that finds the cache also doesn't have to use something pointy since he can just open the hatch that is covered in a very thin film of sand. How is that different from burying the same box flush with the ground? Are you just trying to find an excuse to justify your point?If that remark was serious then might I suggest you grow a hollow tree instead.

E.T. phone home. E.T. phone home. E.T. phone home. E.T. phone home. Exactly where did we come from? It is not about"where we are from".Its about where we are.

I will chose to "walk the line".And I believe rules should be followed to the letter.I would not want to explain to a park ranger as I am digging a hole in the ground that "I dont follow the rules to the letter".Other people who"lack common sense and ignore the rules"does not make it ok for me to do the same.As far as "without MUCH hassle or destruction",I feel that is unacceptable.I will do all I can to avoid hassle and destruction.Even at the expence of it being muggled. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I'm just giving a general idea of how the rules seem to be applied over here. A good example is this cache, a multi that is placed in a conservation area together with the organisation that manages it and where a lot of the WPs are PVC pipes in the ground covered by a custom fitting stump. Everyone (even the tree huggers) except the geocaching guidelines, seems to agree in this case that hiding the WPs and even the cache container in the ground isn't such a big deal. We certainly don't see geocaching in the news here due to caches being hidden in the ground and thus pissing of various organisations, government or not, or needing to be blown up by the bomb squad. It looks to me like the rule was made to please the national parks & rangers in the USA, but I find it strange this should make the rule the same all over the globe. It looks like a minority controlling a majority. I'd find it more logical to expand the existing rule to allow cases such as the one I mentioned where the parties involved are in agreement about hiding caches in the ground. I'm not aiming to offend anyone here, I'm just offering my 2 cents. You seem to only want to view it from your point of view.And yes the rule was also made to please "national parks and rangers".In case you forgot,they are the ones who give permission to place the cache on this land.The parks we enjoy are also the same parks that everyone else enjoys.So digging holes and placing fake stumps is not ok.I believe that most responsible,rule following geocachers do not want to alter or negativly impact the environment,or the game.You need to look at this from a "non-geocachers"point of view also.We are the minority,and must keep the majority happy.I believe when you joined this group you agreed to follow the rules did you not?Just because people ignore the rules where you are doesnt mean it should happen here.Keep digging holes,just dont do them in my parks. Well it is a liberal point of view that enables us to both keep the rules for national parks in the USA, but that at the same time allow a cache in the ground in locations where the landowners give permission. For me, that's a win-win situation. In short it would mean that rules could be different depending on the locale as is the case for example for the road rules. As far as I can see it the rest of the public is still able to enjoy the parks over here, even with some buried caches. I also think it doesn't have a negative impact on the environment when a cache is put slightly in the ground, and even if it has an impact, it won't we more than what the animals themselves have or that the other people have that visit the parks for non-geocaching related activities. Also a 'fake stump' would be permitted by the 'no digging' guidelines as it rests on the ground. And yes, I did agree to follow the rules when I joined, but I believe rules should be under constant review to see if they need to change. Rules shouldn't be set in stone until the end of days. They should provide a starting point for an ever changing set of guidelines that is kept up to date to the times and that most people can agree about. And don't fear I'll be coming over to dig holes in your parks, according to my liberal rules it wouldn't be allowed and so I won't. Animals can dig all the holes they want,its their environment.We are just visitors.As far as people doing damage they are breaking the rules too.There seems to be enough problems with poor cache containers placed obove ground let alone a buried one.I dont think some hiker feels up to stepping through the lid of a buried bucket and breaking an ankle.I dont know how much clearer I can make it,digging holes is bad,and against the RULES. Well according to Darwin, I and a lot of animals have a common descent, so I wouldn't call humans visitors. I'd say we're on equal footing and should live together peacefully. So if animal can dig a hole and it is not called damage to the environment, a small hole for a cache also isn't damaging. Where I'm from we don't seem to have to same problems with lots of poor cache containers. The big majority is of good quality and hidden correctly and strongly underground far enough off the paths so that nobody has problems falling through one. Hell, I weigh about 120kg and I've stepped on my fare share of them and have never fallen through, but I have tripped over caches that weren't buried . As I've said before, it should not be because of 1 country that has problems with caches/cachers/landowners/rangers/whatever that this should affect the rest of the world by means of a blanket rule. The caches that I find problematic are the ones hidden poorly above ground in a plastic bag covered in twigs. They are the ones that look like litter, are easily gotten to by animals, pollute, get moved, get easily broken, etc... . So hiding them underground actually solves a lot of problems the 'no digging' rule causes. I dont want to get into Darwins"theory".I dont live with wild animals.They have their place,I have mine.If in your area the buried caches are ALL safe thats nice.I would find that kinda hard to believe.You even stated you have stepped on your fair share of them.Plastic bags with sticks is also frowned upon and would probably not be approved either,so thats not a good point.

I'm having trouble understanding this. I don't mean you any disrespect but it seems like you're saying that there is an age at which your kids would be old enough to cache alone but not old enough to go into a park alone. I don't think a geocache in a park near a school is going to be the tipping point that attracts more sexual predators or that predators shop for parks, near schools, and that have geocaches in them. Predators will be were there are children- period. I also think, and what I've read seems to support this, that you're child is more likely to encounter a predator that they already know that an stranger in the park. I know this is a very touchy subject and I don't want to come across as second-guessing your motivations, or your parenting. I work in the criminal justice system, and am around felons (including sex offenders) every day at work. Because of that, I tend to be more paranoid than usual when it comes to my son's safety. But I just wanted to mention that I've run into known sex offenders in grocery stores, hobby shops, libraries and just this past Sunday, a video game store. In toy stores and the toy sections in mass-merchandise stores, I've seen people that I didn't know, but displayed behavior that made me suspicious. Interestingly enough, I've yet to see one whilst out geocaching or in a park. I'm not saying that they aren't there. I'm just saying that they're everywhere, and wanted to remind parents that you need to be careful all the time, not just when a park is near. I get sooo annoyed when I see parents in a store who just send their young kids off to play in the toy section while they do their shopping! Please don't think I'm criticizing anyone on this board...I'm not. Okay...I'm off my soap box now!! I couldnt agree more.I just feel very strongly about caching around schools.Why make yourself "look"like you are up to no good when you have a choice not to.People stereo-type,its just human nature.

I will chose to "walk the line".And I believe rules should be followed to the letter.I would not want to explain to a park ranger as I am digging a hole in the ground that "I dont follow the rules to the letter".Other people who"lack common sense and ignore the rules"does not make it ok for me to do the same.As far as "without MUCH hassle or destruction",I feel that is unacceptable.I will do all I can to avoid hassle and destruction.Even at the expence of it being muggled. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I'm just giving a general idea of how the rules seem to be applied over here. A good example is this cache, a multi that is placed in a conservation area together with the organisation that manages it and where a lot of the WPs are PVC pipes in the ground covered by a custom fitting stump. Everyone (even the tree huggers) except the geocaching guidelines, seems to agree in this case that hiding the WPs and even the cache container in the ground isn't such a big deal. We certainly don't see geocaching in the news here due to caches being hidden in the ground and thus pissing of various organisations, government or not, or needing to be blown up by the bomb squad. It looks to me like the rule was made to please the national parks & rangers in the USA, but I find it strange this should make the rule the same all over the globe. It looks like a minority controlling a majority. I'd find it more logical to expand the existing rule to allow cases such as the one I mentioned where the parties involved are in agreement about hiding caches in the ground. I'm not aiming to offend anyone here, I'm just offering my 2 cents. You seem to only want to view it from your point of view.And yes the rule was also made to please "national parks and rangers".In case you forgot,they are the ones who give permission to place the cache on this land.The parks we enjoy are also the same parks that everyone else enjoys.So digging holes and placing fake stumps is not ok.I believe that most responsible,rule following geocachers do not want to alter or negativly impact the environment,or the game.You need to look at this from a "non-geocachers"point of view also.We are the minority,and must keep the majority happy.I believe when you joined this group you agreed to follow the rules did you not?Just because people ignore the rules where you are doesnt mean it should happen here.Keep digging holes,just dont do them in my parks. Well it is a liberal point of view that enables us to both keep the rules for national parks in the USA, but that at the same time allow a cache in the ground in locations where the landowners give permission. For me, that's a win-win situation. In short it would mean that rules could be different depending on the locale as is the case for example for the road rules. As far as I can see it the rest of the public is still able to enjoy the parks over here, even with some buried caches. I also think it doesn't have a negative impact on the environment when a cache is put slightly in the ground, and even if it has an impact, it won't we more than what the animals themselves have or that the other people have that visit the parks for non-geocaching related activities. Also a 'fake stump' would be permitted by the 'no digging' guidelines as it rests on the ground. And yes, I did agree to follow the rules when I joined, but I believe rules should be under constant review to see if they need to change. Rules shouldn't be set in stone until the end of days. They should provide a starting point for an ever changing set of guidelines that is kept up to date to the times and that most people can agree about. And don't fear I'll be coming over to dig holes in your parks, according to my liberal rules it wouldn't be allowed and so I won't. Animals can dig all the holes they want,its their environment.We are just visitors.As far as people doing damage they are breaking the rules too.There seems to be enough problems with poor cache containers placed obove ground let alone a buried one.I dont think some hiker feels up to stepping through the lid of a buried bucket and breaking an ankle.I dont know how much clearer I can make it,digging holes is bad,and against the RULES.

Lurking around school property during or after hours is just not cool.Too many bad things happen these days around schools.And school security doesnt need the added hassle of dealing with anything more.Many schools host after school activities and students may still be there after hours.As a parent of two young girls I would call the law if i saw someone suspicious at their school.I think there are more than enough places for a cache than to be messing around near school property.Even with the permission of the school that doesnt mean the parents there to pick up their kids know what is going on.Very bad idea..

I will chose to "walk the line".And I believe rules should be followed to the letter.I would not want to explain to a park ranger as I am digging a hole in the ground that "I dont follow the rules to the letter".Other people who"lack common sense and ignore the rules"does not make it ok for me to do the same.As far as "without MUCH hassle or destruction",I feel that is unacceptable.I will do all I can to avoid hassle and destruction.Even at the expence of it being muggled. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I'm just giving a general idea of how the rules seem to be applied over here. A good example is this cache, a multi that is placed in a conservation area together with the organisation that manages it and where a lot of the WPs are PVC pipes in the ground covered by a custom fitting stump. Everyone (even the tree huggers) except the geocaching guidelines, seems to agree in this case that hiding the WPs and even the cache container in the ground isn't such a big deal. We certainly don't see geocaching in the news here due to caches being hidden in the ground and thus pissing of various organisations, government or not, or needing to be blown up by the bomb squad. It looks to me like the rule was made to please the national parks & rangers in the USA, but I find it strange this should make the rule the same all over the globe. It looks like a minority controlling a majority. I'd find it more logical to expand the existing rule to allow cases such as the one I mentioned where the parties involved are in agreement about hiding caches in the ground. I'm not aiming to offend anyone here, I'm just offering my 2 cents. You seem to only want to view it from your point of view.And yes the rule was also made to please "national parks and rangers".In case you forgot,they are the ones who give permission to place the cache on this land.The parks we enjoy are also the same parks that everyone else enjoys.So digging holes and placing fake stumps is not ok.I believe that most responsible,rule following geocachers do not want to alter or negativly impact the environment,or the game.You need to look at this from a "non-geocachers"point of view also.We are the minority,and must keep the majority happy.I believe when you joined this group you agreed to follow the rules did you not?Just because people ignore the rules where you are doesnt mean it should happen here.Keep digging holes,just dont do them in my parks.

There's someone for everyone Bro! :-) hehehe..Im good..Married with children.Thanx for the good words! Should have known, you guitar players are babe magnets! lol..maybe 15 years ago..these days I would need a HUGE "babe magnet"..hehe