Frolickin

quote:Originally posted by leatherman:The concept of geocaching is not exclusive to Ground Speak and Geocaching.com. However their representation of geocaching is. They have the exclusive right to make any rules and regulations they see fit in maintaining the integrity of their representation of geocaching. My reply to this argument is found here: http://opentopic.Groundspeak.com/0/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=1750973553&f=3000917383&m=2570915355&r=6520918355#6520918355 Fro. ________________________________________ Geocaching . . . hiking with a purpose

quote:Originally posted by georgeandmary:If you want to list your coordinates on THIS data base (and no one says you must) then there has been a determination that there is minimum that must be reached to be considered a traditional cache. Geocaching and GC.com are two different entities. The larger discussion, for me, is that players need to be able to voice disapproval at the influence that GC.com has over the game. Part 1 I agree with you. Back a page or two I said as much. What follows, however, is that determinations are made for what is best for the game as a whole, not for what is required to post at GC.com. For me, that is dangerous. The more that GC.com=geocaching, the less say players have in the development of the game. GC.com can set any regulation it wants for its site. But, that is not necessarily in the best interest of the game. One of the premises for this thread points this out clearly: the lack of a logbook caused a cache to be disapproved. Obviously, there are plenty who feel a logbook is not needed for a cache. It's easy to say to post the cache at another site. That, however, does not solve the problem for the game. If I do not like the rules for playing golf at one club, I can go to the other. If I have a problem/issue with how golf is played, I need a governing body to appeal to (this example only holds for a bit . . . I do not want to take Casey Martin's appeal to the US courts in this). Part 2 Another issue with just stating that posting coordinates to another db will rectify the issue is again, it helps brand GC.com. Obviously, GC.com is the largest and most wide-known site for geocaching. Without questioning the standards it sets for the game, new-comers are left with the impression that this is how it is to be. Reading these fora is evidence enough of that. It is not too far of a leap for GC.com to change how it does business. I can easily see GC.com beginning to restrict access to the db. Geocaching is free it will state, but access to the the coordinates will cost you. It could go something like this . . . You need to register to access the site. Part of the registration requires you to list a hometown and/or coordinates. You will then be restricted to a 10-mile radius search of those coordinates. To gain access to other coordinates, you will have to off-set the bandwidth GC.com entails. That will materialize as a membership fee. Yes, I can lump it and head over to another db, but that doesn't solve the problem for the game. Fro. ________________________________________ Geocaching . . . hiking with a purpose

I use a DV camcorder on all my hunts. We have complete footage of our first hunt. I generally only use it as a camera on hunts any longer. There is a new cacher near me who has put together some nice video of his new adventures into geocaching. Other than that, port it to VHS tape and send it all your friends and family to show them the joy geocaching! Fro. ________________________________________ Geocaching . . . hiking with a purpose

quote:Originally posted by Moun10Bike:Guidelines that diminish the sport certainly should be removed, but those that foster high quality while leaving open room for creativity are worthwhile. Ah, there's the rub. Who determines those that foster high quality while leaving open room for creativity are worthwhile? The sport (personally, I thought it was a game) is above and beyond GC.com, therefore, who determines what is best for the game needs to be someone/something that represents more than just GC.com. Fro. ________________________________________ Geocaching . . . hiking with a purpose

quote:Originally posted by Moun10Bike:Unfortunately, that is not something that I am able to asnwer. I am not an employee of Groundspeak, but only volunteer to help out with cache acceptance. You need to contact Groundspeak on the matter. I am more confused. Admins are capable of changing cache requirements but not supporting a change to the structure of the game. The list of rules will, as somebody else pointed out, result in argument/debate as to their meanings. Lawyers will be brought in to ascertain the meaning of primary, non-consumer-modified purpose is to act as a sealable container and other such phrases. This is unfortunate and why GC.com and geocaching need to be separated. The branding of this site as the game I have spoken of previously is evident here. The solution is evident, yet apparently, out of anyone's authority (around here anyhow). So, the question needs to change from What is acceptable for a cache? to How can we rescue the game from the commercial interests of this site? (For the record, money can be made with web-hosting and leaving regulation to someone else. It is the need for GC's regulation that is interferring.) Until then, the quality of the caches posted will reflect what Groundspeak (or, I guess, what the admins) determines will make the game better overall. That is not in the best interests of the game, imo. Fro. ________________________________________ Geocaching . . . hiking with a purpose

quote:Originally posted by Moun10Bike:Any suggestions on how to word them such that the junk tennis ball cache is rejected but the creative microscapsule cache is approved? I would like your response to my suggestion to this: Some time ago it was suggested that an independent body be formed to handle issues with the game. That would leave GC.com/Groundspeak to do what it does best--host a web site. There's an idea that would improve the game, alleviate the frustration felt by some toward the admins, and solve the issue for Groundspeak as to how to ensure quality (defer to the governing body). Any chance Groundspeak would lead the way to that solution? Fro. ________________________________________ Geocaching . . . hiking with a purpose

quote:Originally posted by Moun10Bike:To clarify, GC.com is positioning itself to be the governing body of _the caches posted on its servers_. Understood. quote:Originally posted by Moun10Bike:we try to keep the guidelines focused on things that will make the game better overall. That is problematic. GC.com is not the governing body of the game. As such, who is GC.com to determine what makes the game better overall? It may be perceived that the game is better because of it, but obviously, there is another side to that coin. It is fine that GC.com regulates what is posted on its servers. It was suggested by another player that the criteria of what makes a cache could be applied to the game elsewhere. It is to that, I made my point. This all brings to light the problem with annoiting GC.com as geocaching as is constantly stated in the fora. Too much influence on the game is controlled by GC.com. Some time ago it was suggested that an independent body be formed to handle issues with the game. That would leave GC.com/Groundspeak to do what it does best--host a web site. There's an idea that would improve the game, alleviate the frustration felt by some toward the admins, and solve the issue for Groundspeak as to how to ensure quality (defer to the governing body). Any chance Groundspeak would lead the way to that solution? Fro. ________________________________________ Geocaching . . . hiking with a purpose

quote:Originally posted by Sissy-n-CR:(Downside to this will the inherent problem of the spontaneous creation "FAQ thumpers.") That will be a downside (the inherent flaw in trying to guarantee quality through rules). If rules are being enforced, then the larger population will point to any straying from those rules. This is what rules beget. [political rant] If gc.com stuck to hosting coordinates and managing fora and data, then it removes this magnifying lens. Since it, apparently, wants to be the keeper of quality, it will need to undergo examination (this would be a downfall of the suggestion that whatever rules are adopted here being applied to the game outside of gc.com . . . the only reason a logbook is required is because gc.com says so). GC.com is positioning itself to be the governing body of a game. It is doing so without a mandate from the players. [/off political rant] Fro. ________________________________________ Geocaching . . . hiking with a purpose

quote:Originally posted by Moun10Bike:Understood, and I think that it is from this that a lot of the underlying differences between the "opposing sides" of this discussion stem. Well, those in charge are always whipping boys for the opposing side (particularly when they are self-appointed). Just ask the local BOE. My suggestion (and I hear it from others too) is to have a clear set of rules. Stick to the rules. Problems will be discussed and the rules modified, players made aware of changes, and the posted rules updated. That gets you fair and uniformly-enforced rules. For you it may satisfy the quality of the cache (We'll disagree as to the outcome, but it'll provide you with at least something to begin with). So, how will these rules be determined? Where will they be posted? Fro. ________________________________________ Geocaching . . . hiking with a purpose

quote:Originally posted by Moun10Bike:That's what we've been enforcing Despite opening myself up to attacks of nit-picking, I think what would be helpful is to have a set list (someone earlier posited a checklist) of what has to be included and what absolutely cannot be included in a cache. As new items/issues present themselves, they should be hashed out here and some determination made. Then it needs to be added to the checklist. My fear, however, is that checklist will grow. It will also become a debate over semantics (that already occurs regarding locationless caches). Underlying Concern I realize that I look to gc.com (and other sites) as a location of coordinates, not the rule makers, enforcers, integrity checkers of the game. If gc.com is taking on the task of the quality of the game, then structure, policy, and administration are absolutely needed. But, merely being the ones who registered a URL does not give legitimacy to the administration. There is no one authorizing the cause. As I think this through, I am more convinced that the admins' task is not achievable. I am not even certain it is desireable. Fro. ________________________________________ Geocaching . . . hiking with a purpose

quote:Originally posted by Moun10Bike:the admins are tasked with keeping cache quality high. That is a task, which as far as I can tell, is impossible to do. The hider is the only one who can ensure cache quality. Do I understand that no traditional cache will be approved unless a logbook is present? Fro. ________________________________________ Geocaching . . . hiking with a purpose

quote:Originally posted by Sissy-n-CR:Now, we're arguing about a pen in the cache? Give me a break! . . . How about using some common sense? The discussion is not about pens. The discussion is about what rules are being used to approve caches. When a logbook was required, someone pointed to the rules for which a logbook was stated. In those rules it also stated a writing instrument was needed. I asked for clarification. My conclusion is that neither should be required. I agree, common sense should prevail. It is common sense that a logbook does not guarantee a quality cache. So, this is not quote:arguing about a pen in the cache. Fro. ________________________________________ Geocaching . . . hiking with a purpose

quote:Originally posted by Moun10Bike:A pen is not required This is where it becomes murky. The logbook is required. When asked about it, someone else offered the rules and showed how it has been required from the beginning of the game. The current rules indicate that a pen (amended to writing instrument for cold weather caches) is also needed. Now you state it is not required. I am not trying to be argumentative, but this is confusing. It has been suggested that guidelines be clear. Someone posted those guidelines. But then we hear the guidelines are not rigid. quote:Originally posted by Moun10Bike:My question for you is the same as that which I asked of BassoonPilot: How do you propose to objectively, succinctly, and positively define the difference between a cache and trash? The best I have to offer presently is that a requirement of a logbook (and writing instrument) does nothing to guarantee a quality cache. Because of that, neither should be required to post a cache. My opinion is that no one can guarantee a quality cache other than the hider. Common sense will have to play into the approval process to keep the sneaker cache and tennis ball from hitting the air. But what is the worst thing that happens if they were approved? A few folks find them and report about the lack of quality. It is reviewed and discussed and the community decides to archive it or not. There is no rule or set of rules that will guarantee quality. Other than safety measures (no hiding on railroad tracks, military bases, etc.) or environmental concerns (no food that would attract animals, etc.) or lawful issues, there should be no rules. If there is a lame cache or an inappropriate one, the local cachers will make it known. Fro. ________________________________________ Geocaching . . . hiking with a purpose

quote:Originally posted by mtn-man:Next, you'll need a logbook and a pen. This was my question. A pen is required. So, what is to become of caches submitted that state a writing instrument is needed because one cannot fit into the cache? Fro. ________________________________________ Geocaching . . . hiking with a purpose

If I understand correctly, the need for the logbook in a traditional cache is needed to help curtail the plethora of caches that are being submitted. My Question If a traditional cache needs a logbook so a finder can log his find at the site, he will need a writing instrument. Yet, we all have seen micros that, although may be able to host a log, cannot host a writing instrument. A hider around me is famous for this style of cache. Most are interesting to hunt. If I need to read beforehand to bring a writing instrument so I can log the find, how different is that from being asked to note a code to e-mail it once I arrive back home? Conclusion I think the requirement of a logbook, while helping with one problem, creates issues for someone who is trying to be creative. Fro. ________________________________________ Geocaching . . . hiking with a purpose

quote:Originally posted by Prime Suspect:I don't know it for certain, but I very much doubt if they consult Navícache or any other site. As a matter of fact, I only recently found out that I have a cache that's only a few hundred feet from the first stage of a Navícache-only listed cache. I do not believe they do either, but certainly have no evidence to the contrary. Should they not, then the rule is hollow. The first stage of a multi should be known. Of course, after that, who knows? Fro. ________________________________________ Geocaching . . . hiking with a purpose

quote:Originally posted by Prime Suspect:There's a de facto rule that caches shouldn't be less than 1/10th of a mile from each other. I gather this is so there is not congestion. Do the admins take into account caches that are posted to other databases? If congestion is the concern for not having caches within .10 miles of each other, then whether or not a newly placed cache is within that distance of a cache logged at Nav.... would need to be considered. Fro. ________________________________________ Geocaching . . . hiking with a purpose

quote:Originally posted by Jeremy Irish:This year Earth Day is on April 22nd Some would say Earth Day is every 22 April. Others would say it is always the March equinox. http://www.earthsite.org/origin.htm Fro. ________________________________________ Geocaching . . . hiking with a purpose

quote:Originally posted by Jeremy Irish:This year Earth Day is on April 22nd Some would say Earth Day is every 22 April. Others would say it is always the March equinox. http://www.earthsite.org/origin.htm Fro. ________________________________________ Geocaching . . . hiking with a purpose

quote:Originally posted by maleki:Hard to believe the website can continue too long without support. So many come and go. It is not my task to help this site grow. It is to everyone's benefit for there to many different websites housing geocache coordinates. Deferring to GC.com is adding to a branding of this site as geocaching. That hurts all geocachers. FWIW, I stated that one does not need to be a premium member to save cache pages to a PDA. Fro. ________________________________________ Geocaching . . . hiking with a purpose

quote:Originally posted by sbukosky:The #1 use of a PDA is to carry cache pages and hints with you. Become a premium user and you will have that function enabled. The software needed is free at Mobipocket.com I agree that a PDA is a good tool to use to carry cache pages and hints. You do not need to be a premium member of this site to use your PDA to carry cache pages and hints with you in the field. For each cache I plan to visit, I saved the page to a directory that is uploaded to my PDA. I use IE on my PDA and read these static pages just as I would on this or any other site. Fro. ________________________________________ Geocaching . . . hiking with a purpose

Not bad considering I can't go too far east or south b4 I hit the ocean. Fro. ________________________________________ Geocaching . . . hiking with a purpose

quote:Originally posted by Trudy & The Beast:If you go out as a group and you don't find the cache, do you each log a not found? Interesting . . . I was looking for a cache on NYE. I was struggling with it. Along came three other cachers. We all hunted together and all failed to find it. At least two of us logged a no find. I suppose one would have been enough. But since we came as two "groups", two logs were made. When we went off together to find a couple other caches, we all logged them as finds, despite who actually found it. Fro. ________________________________________ Geocaching . . . hiking with a purpose

. . . then the traveler Gulliver picked up the chest. As he marvelled at the size of the chest, he was unaware of the utter amazement of the Lilliputians . . . Fro. ________________________________________ Geocaching . . . hiking with a purpose

I plan on being there if the weather holds. The forecast does not look great, however. I was hopeful the snow might melt b4 then. It looks like it is just going to be added to. Fro. ________________________________________ Geocaching . . . hiking with a purpose