OGA - Admin

Ontario Parks has no legal right to limit or restrict any person posting the latitude and longitude of any location on the surface of the Earth. If any such point constitutes "TRESPASSING" then the act of standing on that point is a violation of local laws. If however that point is a public accessible point, where any person may at their own choosing take a photograph or read an informative plaque then that is permitted. It is permitted because such a spot has been deemed "for public use and viewing" and is permitted if not encouraged to be visited by Ontario Parks. Should Ontario Parks attempt to seek criminal action against a person providing such information, or visiting a public accessible area then Ontario Parks would be risking a counter charge of Discrimination under the Human Right Code of Canada. Regardless, Virtual Caches are NOT PERMITTED by Geocaching.com under the current policy. Just because a site cannot support a physical container does not mean it qualifies as a Virtual location. I firmly agree that Ontario Parks not only has no understanding of Geocaching what so ever, but has been arrogant in not consulting with ANYONE from the Geocaching community. I have made several attempts to contact them... all were ignored. Totally! Not even a reply of "Ontario Parks is developing a ban to destroy your hobby" Nothing. That is what I cannot tolerate.. we waited for two years, tried to help them promote their lands, wanted to work with them to make a realistic and workable policy. They wouldn't so much as tell us their concerns. OGA does not accept this policy, not one word of it, as it has been designed with limited or more likely no understanding. This policy is akin to saying "A few Priests have molested a few children.... we should kill ALL the priests. It is too hard to teach everyone, so the church will purge this toxin.... genocide is the only solution... now everyone put on their blindfolds!" No offence to any Catholics, it is just an example of a narrow minded approach to a problem. OGA - Admin Oh... I also suspect that Ontario Parks is the real author of the Parks Canada policy, and suggested that Parks Canada release their policy first, so that PC looks like the bad guy and Ontario Parks is just following along. I for one am not fooled! Ontario Parks staff have been nothing but hostile or unapproachable from the time they asked for their BAN. Parks Canada, however misguided they have been, at least was open to discussion to find a way to implement a future policy. That is Parks Canada's directive... to develop a policy to support Geocaching in all of its formats. Donna is right... We waited two years for this? It's nothing but a poorly thought out BAN that shows no thought at all. ONTARIO PARKS.... TRY AGAIN! Better yet TRY!!! FOR ONCE

As for New York State and the attached information from "Pintoponies" To the best of my knowledge, from speaking with New York Geocaching Organization members (NYGO) I have been told the following "New York State has closed all of their state parks. Each one is no longer maintained and closed to the public" This would indicate also that NY has removed all of their insurance on those lands, or at least reduced it a great deal as a cost saving measure. No staff, and no liability. No wonder they are making people buy $25 permits to hide a cache (which no one in the sane mind would do, IMHO) and additionally provide liability insurance and state that New York will not be held accountable for any injuries that result from Geocaching. I do not know facts, just what I have been told. I don't know if the public are still allowed to be in the parks but I cannot see the State putting up gates everywhere. Probably it is more likely that the public can use the sites at their own risk, and that would be posted. OGA - Admin

Status update from OGA I spoke with the National representative from Parks Canada this morning. They were the chair of the meeting we attended earlier in April. After we cleared the air of a few miscommunications and misunderstandings we have come to the follow understandings. -> Parks Canada will be editing the 'draft policy' to better word some questionable statements and it will no longer be called 'draft', rather 'interum'. This change better reflects the effective policy for the next year. -> Parks Canada is looking into developing a method to allow "a few" physical caches either to remain, or new ones placed, to better determine the impact of caching. That is not to say they will adopt this, but they are trying to work out the logistics of this idea to illustrate to the Geocaching community that they do understand our position. -> OGA has pledged its support to their current policy, and suggests that if any Geocacher is contacted about a cache that they own, they should make arrangements to meet with the Parks staff to assist in visiting the cache site. I realize that many of you would feel that they will be removing your cache unfairly. The positive effect of meeting with the staff and talking about your cache and evaluating the site and impact will reflect in the future when Parks Canada revisits the policy in a years time. If we illustrate to Parks Canada that we are willing to work with them then we have a better chance of getting our caches back into place next year, or at least create a more Geocacher-friendly policy. -> OGA also would like to be informed by the cacher that is contacted that they were contacted, preferably before going to the cache site. OGA needs to know what caches are affected and what the outcome of the discussion with Parks staff is. This information is invaluable for when we talk with Parks Canada in the future to help design policies to enable caching again. I certainly understand everyone's idea of "Taking the game underground" or placing lots of caches to keep Parks staff busy.... believe me, I too have entertained the same ideas because I feel threatened too. But this is simply a bad idea. Parks staff will remove the caches they are able to identify, and they have the right to charge people with littering. Just because you placed your cache under an alias doesn't mean that your IP address isn't tracked and you cannot be found. Is this really the way we are going to illustrate that Geocaching is a family activity and we are a serious group of responsible people? We, as cachers, are building a bridge together with Parks Canada. They have concerns, and we have concerns. They are listening, and we must listen too. And both sides know that there are going to be some problems. But let's all address these problems with maturity and understanding. No one is saying that we will meet in the middle of that bridge, or that the bridge will be complete in a year. More likely it won't. But this is the foundation of the bridge. Parks Canada is going to take it slowly, but at least they are willing to talk and work on things. Parks Canada is very excited about the possibilities that Geocaching can present on a park level. They told me so to my face. They cannot simply jump in with both feet. There are items to resolve, things to look into. But I strongly believe that Parks Canada, if they are willing to move forward as they have suggested, will come to see how wonderful Geocaching can be. Are you willing to work to see that caching is represented properly? If so, work to promote caching practices. Work to show how we are willing to develop with Parks Canada. I think giving Parks Canada a year to come up with an effective "physical" cache policy is something we can accomplish. After all, we have waited nearly two years for Ontario Parks to talk about Geocaching. At least Parks Canada is talking. OGA - Admin

The unfortunate part for all of this is a timing issue. This Draft policy was created by Parks Canada and probably with input from other Parks Authorities of a 'provincial' level over the course of one and half years. It was done so without input from any member of the Geocaching community. Now, the draft is soon to be implemented and very soon we will be able to do nothing until the end of the year review. It was created over eightteen months and we have no time at all to respond. We, in Ontario, have waited over two years for a policy from Ontario Parks with promises of "We will include you in the policy creation, and get input and feedback from Geocachers". I am beginning to doubt this will happen. Suddenly, the entire country has a policy thrust upon us, with little time to affect change and we are expected to consolodate our individual groups across the country. A daunting task to say the least since to my knowledge, none of the groups have had any reason to contact each other as we have all been dealing with local matters. So here we are.... fragmented, and unprepared for a challenge that we should have had a place in developing. If Ontario Parks plan to adopt the same policy, and they may be waiting to see what the result of the Parks Canada policy is, then we in Ontario will have to petition. The rest of the provinces will probably have the exact same experience. Some before Ontario, some after, or maybe it will sweep through at the same time. The parts that are key to note is that Parks Canada believes they did a great deal of research into Geocaching. I believe from an outside observer position that they did. I am still not convinced that Parks Canada's approach of archiving all current physical geocaches will teach anyone anything. We were told that the draft policy will not change this year. They said they will revisit this at the end of the year. I still do not see the rational to remove the current cache base.... it just hasn't been illustrated to any level of justification. I will say that should this draft policy not be amended to permit current physical caches to remain for evaluation, I would encourage all Geocaching groups across Canada to join together to lobby for our hobby. Should the need arise, we can contact our local government, provincial and federal. We can send petitions for change. We can contact various forms of media to rally our cause. But that is a serious step. Don't be fooled into thinking that a small percentage of the population can make change just by writing a few letters or making a few phone calls... doesn't work like that. If we are to eventually need to join together for the cause of perserving Geocaching on Government Lands, federal, provincial or otherwise, then we must be organized, and polite and able to express our concerns intellegently. We cannot come off as arrogant, spoiled brats or some unorganized bunch of rebels that do not respect proceedures. The immediate step is to gain support for Geocaching by encouraging every Geocacher you know to join a Geocaching club. Get names on a list, build numbers and build your strength. OGA - Admin

This is an unfortunate situation. As Cache-Tech has said, the current draft policy does not permitted physical geocaches on any land under the control of Parks Canada. During our meeting meeting In Gattineau, OGA presented an alternative for their consideration as follows - No new physical geocaches during the current evaluation period (the remainder of this calendar year) - Perform an evaluation of each currently active physical geocache site with the aid of the cache owner, to indentify the current conditions, any impact and address any concerns. Relocate any cache that is in an area that is deemed unsuitable to a near-by location that is suitable to Park staff. - Use all of these currently active physical geocaches as the test subjects to evaluate the impact on the locale, based upon number of visits and changes to the ecology and/or terrain. - At the end of the year (November) re-visit the cache sites and evaluate the changes if any, positive or negative, and report back to Parks Canada the status and perception of the impact that the physical geocache has had over the six month test period. Hopefully this is a more suitable alternative, and maybe one they might consider, but as of now there is still the requirement to remove any and all physical geocaches that reside on Parks Canada lands. The Ontario Geocaching Association has no power to enforce such a rule, nor would we, as it is contradictory to the very ideals we were formed to protect. We will however continue to work with Parks Canada to ensure realistic and attainable geocaching policies, and to see that the history of caching be preserved to the best of our ability. It has always been our position that Geocaching in government parks, whether they be Parks Canada, or Ontario Parks, that it is educational, respectful and family oriented. It is therefore part of our future to help Parks Canada understand that Geocaching can be another facet for promoting the parks, and we at OGA would encourage any other organized group in Canada to do the same. This meeting was very quickly brought together, and we literally had a few days to prepare and make arrangements to be there. We were lucky to be able to have the meeting, but it would have been much better if we had actually been a part of the policy creation in the first place and perhaps much of this would have been different. Now we are working from a 'correction' position, and a re-education of what Geocaching is. There is evidence that Parks Canada was quite impressed with the meeting and that they learned a great deal from it, and discovered a few things they didn't know or thought they knew but were incorrect about. That is natural, and it is great that Parks Canada was willing to listen. Now we just need them to take a step in our direction, as we have done with them. OGA - Admin

Hey out there! OGA is putting together the next newsletter. Sure it's far overdue, but that means there is lots to print! Do you have an article you would like to submit? It would be great to get articles from all over Ontario. Send them to info@ontgeocaching.com or admin@ontgeocaching.com. The only requirement is that any images submitted must be accompanied by a note stating the source of the image (even if it is your own picture).... we like to give credit! Any format is fine, but Word or Text documents work best for us! Looking forward to getting the new newsletter together. The plan is to publish it on our web site OGA Site on May 1st. OGA Admin

Updating our info (previously supplied by 'Cachengrab') Ontario Geocaching Association We have been working at it since Jan 4th, 2004. Our site is currently being 're-done' and the one listed above is a temporary one, but the layout is finalized. Content to be edited and updated still. Really hoping to get approval for Geocaching in Ontario Provincial Parks, and we have agreements with some land owners, and talking to several others. OGA - Admin

The OGA site is back online. OGA SITE Thanks everyone. OGA - Admin

Nope. I checked my map of all Ontario caches ever placed. Isn't one now, and there never has been to the best of my knowledge.

The OGA site will be down for a "service related concern" briefly. This should be rectified by Friday. Thanks The Blue Quasar

Hello All I am happy to announce that the OGA Website is back up and running. This is a semi-complete effort and a lot of thanks goes to Lugnuts for helping us out to get us back as a visible entity to the Geocaching Community. In the near future some content will be edited and more added. Thanks to all those were patient with us during the time the site was inactive. Please understand that we are still developing this site and much of the content is still in the draft stage. OGA - Admin admin@ontgeocaching.com OGA Website

This is an invitation to the Geocachers across Ontario to be able to set up local CITO Events under one banner. I'm offering to post all of the CITO Events in the OGA - Admin account, should anyone wish to. Anyone that wishes to organize a clean up can send the information to admin@ontgeocaching.com or ogaadmin@cogeco.ca I will need the following info from you - Coordinates - Date and Time - The city name you'd like added to 'OGA - CITO 2005 - Xxxx' - Any details you have about what to bring etc. CITO is planned for the 16th of April. Please try to get some media coverage if you can. Naturally anyone that wants to host their own is free to do so. This way, everyone can attend a clean up and get credit for your efforts. OGA - Admin

Hamilton Conservation Authority has a permit policy for Geocaches. The OGA rep for Hamilton "The Daniel Boone Gang" contacted every cache owner that has a cache within an HCA park and got the required forms completed. The Daniel Boone Gang has sent those forms to the HCA contact person. We have not heard anything either way. As for Niagara Peninsula Conservation Authority, they were rather laid back about the whole thing. We were told many months ago that it was just a formality and they would talk about it in their upcoming meeting. They were really happy about Geocaching in general and even came out to our CITO event. Nothing ever was said to us after that and again we have not heard anything either way. As for Ontario Parks, I had last heard a rumour that they have a Geocaching Policy ready, or nearly ready, but they have not said anything at all to us. I know we have tried to contact these groups repeatedly and don't want to be an annoyance so we decided to take a 'wait and see if they come to us' approach. It is my feeling that the HCA and NPCA are happy to have us caching, and OP is being careful in drafting a policy that affects hundreds of parks and thousands of hectares of land. At this point, we don't know if we should begin to expand into other Conservation Authorities or not. We'd like to but it's hard to keep going in saying "Well we talked to HCA and NPCA and they like us but we don't actually have a firm agreement with them" Currently Amazon Annie is going to try to physically visit both the HCA and NPCA to see what the current conditions are and hopefully get a firm commitment from them to agree to the same guidelines and policies for Geocaching. OGA Admin

This FORUM post is long overdue and now that it has been brought up it's time to bring to light some items regarding OGA First off - the OGA Website Yes the OGA web site has been down for far too long. A donated host server crashed back in late November or early December. We anticipated that the server would be repaired but to date it still is not. So, about a week ago it was decided that we would replace all of the content with new content on another server. That is something that we are currently working on, and as of today we have three 'basic' pages and hope to get a 'temporary site' up by the end of the month. We do have a test area to make the 'pretty pages' but I felt we have to get something up ASAP. Memberships - FREE and FULL Many people registered as members of OGA at GHAGAFAP 3 and we ran into a problem regarding "Privacy Issues". So we are honouring the FREE and FULL Memberships and have a template for the Membership cards created, which will be getting mailed out within a month. Generation of the ID#'s is my first project and of course the mailing. Back to the "Privacy" part... even though we are honouring the memberships we have, those members will have to resubmit a membership application through the Website (when active) to update our database. We will cross-referrence to ensure all FULL Members are credited for their previous applications. The Newsletter - Getting back to quarterly issues I plan on having the newsletter back and to have submission info on the web page, even on the 'temp' page. We have a dedicated person for the Newsletter now and he will be providing guidelines and info as soon as possible. OGA will post a FORUM note to let everyone know when the site is operational. Sorry for the delay and lack of info. OGA - Admin