LChamberlain

To me this is a moot point, as to whether the hunter had a Bow or a Rifle, the presentation of the video has more or less opened "Pandora's Box". I suppose my point to a reply is to say that given his language and your attitude. ( reflected by going back) it was an almost " we'll show him mentality" that concerns me the video angle presents a whole new cast on this form of recreation. "how to harass a hunter" The end clip where the male screams we are leaving now. You need to review what you posted on "youtube" and as well consider how it comes across to others, and it does not cast your party in a good light, regardless of legality. Sometimes as I said before discretion is the better part of valor. To rise above the situation, move on and return at a later date would have put this recreation/sport in a better light. In addition to hunting, I backpack and as well sea kayak, in Virginia the "wild islands" are considered to be public property unless so marked. Some of which have considerable size. The point here is that often I will either go paddling solo or with a group, however I am mindful as well of others. It would seem to me and most of the others that you from the angle of the camera, that when you saw the sign you figured a way to circumvent the posting. Appearances granted can be deceiving. Hence my comment as to the presentation. i often teach classes in techniques of navigation, wilderness skills. When private lands are unaccessible we often use the public lands, Management areas as well as parks. In the process of all my years of doing such, we as a group or my planning has always been centered to not disturbing or interfering with hunters, or other users of the outdoors. As well I often lead groups on backpacking trips, sea kayak treks. The object is I would not pitch my camp next to someone else, or make a landing below the hide tide line as all lands below that are public on a beach adjacent to private property, with the exception of emergencies. Once my paddling group landed on an island we though had no other people on it, turned out there were two families who had planned a get-a-way weekend the island was sufficient to house both parties but knowing another island was only a half mile downstream we elected to move downstream to the other island. The object here is courtesy, promoting a positive image, inspite of the negative as he felt encroached.It may have been that he had to pay a fee for a stamp to hunt on public lands in addition to just his license. A luxury as a geocacher we do not. The cost of licenses, fees, stamps, ammunition, equipment all benefit us, as there is a tax on every piece of outdoors equipment that rolls back to purchasing public lands and as well park lands. Additionally those fees also pay to restore habitat, and although distasteful to some, hunting culls the weak from general populations. Especially since the time of settlement most natural predators were eliminated. A secondary point I will admit. Your cost to the caching that day was minimal, licenses in Virginia have increased significantly. Not knowing what the costs are in Pa. I can only assume they too have increased over time. In using the outdoors, its a resource like any other, and as such we must consider sometimes doing the right thing is better than asserting our entitlements over others. With a gun or not. Courtesy never hurt anyone, being mindful of other interests does not cost anything either. The video puts you in a very poor light as arrogant, selfish and antagonistic. What the purport of that is or isn't it still speaks to attitudes exhibited. As i said my points are probably moot, I can only hope that other hunters do not see the video and as the reflection coming through is one of anti-hunting and a proprietary concept that did not and does not exist. that attitude of playing games with an individual or group. Trail etiquette is a poor example, as many backpackers, hikers and hunters have co-existed for a long time. But then when you have public lands to go to ask how much of that money was paid for with hunter money or monies spent on fishing , hunting or camping equipment. Which by the way also includes binoculars and optics. Hunting License Va.. Muzzle loader, Archery, Crossbow, General Stamp, Big Game Stamp .......$90.00 Ammunition:Rifle 25.00.. Shot and Powder...50.00 Arrows...15.each,Bolts for Crossbow 22. 1 box of ammunition , fresh powder and shot, 3 arrows, 3 bolts..............................................$142.00 Climbing Stand for hunting from tree....................................................................................$175.00 Additional Stamps, fees, licenses.............................................................................................80.00 Campground fees average 32.00 per day ...................State Park...........................................$160.00 Other gear..Four season tent................................................................................................$376.00 Sleeping Bag rated zero degrees.................................................................on sale................$135.00 Backpack, cook gear, accessories..................................................................complete pack $500.00 Specialty gear clothing boots and hunting clothes...Coat......................................................... $ 300.00 Rangefinder for evaluating distance and sighting in ................................................................$ 229.00 My triton GPS 400................................................................................................................$129.00 My triton GPS 500................................................................................................................ $169.00 they were on sale from 229 and 269 respectively My Garmin Etrex Venture HC.................on sale......................................................................$149.00 GPS units are also used in hunting, fishing, sailing , sea kayaking, work as well as SAR so Cache Hunting would be a lesser included item. The Balance: Hunting vs GeoCache kind of one sided as to costs....take notice I did not include firearms, bows granted some do not take their monies for one interest so in fairness we can say the camping gear also gets used other places. But if you do the math, you see that the person in the stand has paid a high price for that one day.one season so the frustration of thinking you have the perfect spot, planning getting time to go, maybe driving 100 miles or more, camping. then have someone walk in and then later return and later scream through the woods, end of clip. The video as I said spoke volumes, as to the man in outline up the tree, figure being at that one spot probably cost him 250-400 for the bow, another 125-175 for the stand, the license fee, as opposed to your walk in the woods with the GPS was it a mobile? 149. It boils down tot he fact that going back put all of us in a dim light with hunters as I said I look at both sides.If it had been me I would have apologized for disturbing his hunt and removed myself as quietly as possible and not returned on a day when hunting was occurring. Just a thought, now that I have had my say, and seems it has fallen on a deaf ear i bid you the best of luck and pray the next time you run into the situation you will think before returning, when does rifle season come in?

Okay , I'm in, sounds like it will do a lot of good.

I saw the video after reading the replies about this "debate". I am a hunter and as to sitting in a stand for seven hours, it happens, usually hunters will sit on a stand all day. Especially when Bow hunting. In most respects you were both wrong, not an answer I am sure you wanted to hear, but there seemed to be a "challenge mentality' present on boat sides. I have had hunters ( with guns) walk through the area as well as have dogs run right past me. The point is that neither you or he were in the right, ultimately it could have ended worse, and in some respects a local warden may have written you up for interfering. Bow season usually precedes the gun season. Its not a question of right to be in the woods, that aspect changed when the confrontation began. As they say "discretion is the better part of valor" as well many Bowhunters belong to hunting associations as I do, and the hunting lobby is to say the least powerful enough to bring pressure to bear to perhaps close good cache areas. As well the point where you became the "aggressor " and he the harassed, on your return. In hearing the discussions on both sides,one theme is apparent, the confrontation could have been diffused and you could have shown whose was the bigger person by writing that site off till a time . The disturbing part was climbing the fence, leased lands are the same as having the rights as the deeded owner. It was clear in the video, and although humorous as to figure away around the "prohibition' by scaling the fence, usually they are there for a reason, livestock, crops etc. usually one asks before crossing private property or leased property as the rights of the lessee are the same as the lessor. Posting of the video shown the crossing of the fence, and as well I hope that in that area it does not come back to adversely affecting other Cache Hunters. A fear that many have as to public areas could be closed as well as property owners who might see the video and say point blank to anyone Cacher or hunter "No Tresspassing". As well in this area where I live is still basically rural, livestock roam from sun up to sun down and across the road from me the farmer raises beef for market with a very high population of Bulls. Some of these stay out all night under the trees and are quite aggressive in their own right as to charging fences as well as people. Regardless of who thinks they were in the right, you all were in the wrong, his challenges with verbal abuse, your returning to the scene only to irritate. Personally I think a cache site within a graveyard is wrong in that there is a lessened respect of the grave sites. As well his language to you was confrontational, not excusable. The presence of the video here clearly demonstrated the wrongs, lots of them not just the hunter. in my earlier years I was a law enforcement officer, had I been called and you shown me the part where he was swearing I would have asked to see the entire clip as I did tonight. He may have gone to jail, for verbal abuse, however there is also the presence of the act of crossing the fence and that could have resulted in your being charged as well for tresspass and possibly along the tape showing an intention to harass the hunter. Not an attorney but am an ex investigator who probably would have issued summons to all parties. taking into consideration the evidentary value of the tape. his use of language was force, as was your returning to the site. Please review the tape you posted and you will see my points, no one (again) was right. All of this could have ended with some courtesy and respect from both sides. Perhaps we should sign as others in other areas a code of conduct, as a diver who researches shipwrecks for historical documentation I have signed an agreement as to respecting not only sites marked as gravesites but not to disturb any site which may later be researched. Lee

Recently I was asked by one of the co-leaders in our kayaking group what Geocaching was all about. I explained to them that I was new to the "sport" , but had thought about creating a special cache for group. It would be one of those "Lost kayaker cache's". As a sea kayaker it surprised me the other day to find so many sites on or near water, and as a SCUBA diver the idea had occurred to me as well as planting a "cache" inside of an Ammo Can with little waterproof bags and a dive slate. Getting back to the point, often many travel by sea kayak and I had thought seriously about creating a " Lost Kayaker's Cache" I often teach navigation courses for beginners and as well some of the advanced sea kayakers in the group many of which use GPS. Especially since many paddle our wetlands areas here in Virginia as well as some of the circumnavigation events. I was wondering if a suitable "cache" would include the following: Hand Warmers/Body Warmers Signal mirror with waterproof matches Space blanket ( the foil kind) a relatively inexpensive compass (5-10) dollar range the Log Book would have to be the type I often use for paddling, a "Wet Notes" type with a pencil. Each item would be in addition to its sealed envelope but as well be in a zip loc. With the advent of water trails in tidal areas I thought this might be an interesting concept, and would appreciate some feedback. I had thought seriously about making two or three permanent cache sites of this nature for everyone, not just my paddling group. Often we have AR events ( Adventure Racing) using map and compass only and hence a lot of the members want to expand their GPS skills. ( Adventure Racing is usually a series of events, Paddling, cross country compass, cycling or mountain biking). But as I will be using GPS in the navigation class I am teaching I thought it might be a good way as well to develop actual navigation to a point skills with GPS and compass.

Don't know the laws in PA, here in Michigan you have as much right to be in a state park during hunting season as a hunter. The etiquette during hunting season around here is to wear safety orange and not make a spectacle of yourself. A family with noisy kids, wile rude, is fine. Single person hooting and hollering is breaking the law and asking for jail and or a fine. In regards to the bold. Is that PA law or your assumption? In Michigan the hunting hours for deer are from one-half hour before sunrise to one-half hour after sunset. In Virginia we have a number of Wildlife Management Areas as well as State Forests. With that said there are some State Forests where hunters can hunt, and in other areas not. Most of our state parks are closed to hunters but often adjoin Public hunting areas. On our rivers most "wild islands" are considered state property as well. So far since Geocaching has been become popular we have not had any real problems and during hunting season, I usually Geocache on the only day these areas are closed to hunting which is Sunday. Our parks are closed to hunting so I usually pull up a boundary map in those areas and make sure I am well within what I consider a safety zone. I will say that if you are out hunting up sites/caches during the deer or bear season, it might be a very good idea to wear blaze orange, even though you are not "Deer Hunting". As well a practice I learned early on in my hunting day ( Deer Hunting) was to use a technique called "Splatter Vision" in other words not be singled focused to one spot but taking in the whole area all the time. It gives you an opportunity to see alot more including spotting hunters. Most do not realize that if the hunter is still hunting, deer often will take note of a hiker/GPS Geocacher and then circle around behind them. Either way be careful as some hunters get "deer fever" and anything that moves is interpreted to be a four legged creature that barely stands a little over 3 feet high, ( have actually seen some cars ( of all colours) mistaken for deer when a hunter passed and saw a glint on the other side of the brush pile. In Virginia its one half hour before sunrise and one half hour after sunset. Harassing hunters is illegal, however it has to be harassment, like intentionally interfering with his hunt. best thing is if you see a hunter, call it a day and come back on a Sunday, Be safe and look forward to reading more of your posts. Congrats on finding the graveyard.