Zuckerruebensirup

This sounds like an improvement for both those who like and those who dislike the idea of locationless caches. Thanks for giving them a home. ------- Join us at our first geo-gathering on 4/27/02!

This sounds like an improvement for both those who like and those who dislike the idea of locationless caches. Thanks for giving them a home. ------- Join us at our first geo-gathering on 4/27/02!

By the way, the scope of this poll does NOT include parks in which there was already an existing ban on (or approval of) Geocaching. (Votes as of this post, one each on choices 3 and 4.) ------- Join us at our first "geo-gathering" on 4/27/02!

For those who've either asked permission in advance of placing a cache, or have had one discovered by (or brought to the attention of) park authories, please tell us how it worked out: (Note that scenario #4 includes situations where caches had to be moved to a new location within the park at the request of park authorities.)

quote:Originally posted by Scott Thomason:I challenge you [Zuckerruebensirup] to give us a single example of where asking for permission to place a geocache has resulted in a scenario like you describe here. [That the person you ask will be closed minded, and immediately say "No" without even listening to why it should be allowed...and then raise red flags among the park authorities about rumors that people are burying and abandoning items in the parks, and demand that an end needs to be put to it. They could start a campaign against Geocaching, without even understanding what it is] I'll bet you can't because the idea of someone going off half-cocked just because you asked for permission seems pretty far-fetched to me. The much more likely scenario, (and one we are seeing more and more) is people placing caches without permission, then when the responsible agency finds out about this unauthorized use, they make blanket decisions banning caching. This is what happened in our National Parks, what happened in Georgia State Parks, what happened in several cities and some National Forests, and what may soon happen in California. No, I don't have an example off the top of my head. The question that was posed is what is the worst that "could" happen...my response was my interpretation of one possible consequence. Considering the currently existing blanket bans (that you mentioned), it certainly appears to be a feasible scenario. quote:It puzzles me that you understand that giving land use agencies fuel to ban caching is a bad idea, yet you fail to understand that not asking for permission first is _the_ cardinal sin in their minds! If there was a rule in place against leaving caches in a park, and we did so without permission, of course it would (and should) upset them. But if there is no pre-existing rule, why should they get mad about our doing something we were never told NOT to? I don't understand the logic in immediately making a ban on something non-destructive that wasn't previously disallowed before its discovery. If the authorities find a cache that was placed without permission, and they don’t like the fact that permission wasn’t asked, then why not simply establish a new rule to the effect of, "No placement of caches without prior authorization."? After that, if people broke the rule, I could understand (at least to some extent) the reason for the blanket ban. (Perhaps this is what happened with our National Parks, and Georgia State Parks, several cities and some National Forests? They first ALLOWED managed Geocaching, but then had to retract their acceptance after people broke the rules? Again, I admit that I'm not familiar with the actual facts, so I can only guess. But I would be surprised if that was indeed the case.) Please note that I never condoned the placement of caches in places that had been banned. My thought was that I’d like to avoid getting MORE places banned by bringing attention to ourselves, and forcing them to take a stand on whether to allow or not allow caches. (Officially allowing Geocaching puts a liability on them…which is one of the arguments for banning them.) I think we’ve all heard examples of people who’ve asked for permission (in places that there wasn’t a pre-existing rule one way or the other), and been told no. If there are any pre-existing caches in those areas, they are now technically illegal (and should be removed), whereas before, there was nothing that said they couldn’t be there. From my perspective, that’s unfortunate. quote:Originally posted by Scott Thomason: (I refer to the following posts from another thread I’d like to suggest that we do a study to compare how many cachers have: 1) Asked permission in advance and been denied, and then later successfully talked the authorities into changing their minds, and subsequently officially allowing Geocaching, vs. those who have 2) Placed a well-thought out, low-impact cache WITHOUT permission…and had it later discovered by authorities, who as a result, placed a ban on all Geocaching in their park/park system. quote: Locally, we've had good success getting permission to place caches. All the folks we have asked either didn't care one way or the other, or were quite enthusiastic about the idea of caches in their parks. That’s great! I’ve heard stories that go both ways. Hopefully, with preparation, we can begin to hear more stories like yours. quote: I think it's much better to introduce geocaching to park managers on _OUR_ terms instead of letting them find out about it through some other, less reliable source. That is where much of the FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) about geocaching comes from. We get to tell our story when we ask for permission, so we can do a lot to allay those fears. In my opinion, that is the only way we can ensure this sport has a future. Your point is well taken. (And I hope you also can understand, at least to some extent, my own fears and misgivings.) [This message was edited by Zuckerruebensirup on April 24, 2002 at 04:42 PM.]

quote:Originally posted by Tecmage (R&T): With all due respect, the rumor mill is one very big reason to seek permission. If a parks manager believes that Geocaching means people digging up a park, the answer is going to be no. An issue that is important to me (and one that I've already made suggestions about in our newly forming Michigan Geocachers Organization group), that I didn't originally bring up here since I was already getting long winded, is the importance of putting together a 'presenation' package for informing park officials about Geocaching, and addressing any of the questions, concerns, or misconceptions that they are likely to have. I'm not so much against asking for permission to place caches, as I am in not being prepared when we ask for that permission. Not to criticize anyone's abilities, but I think that amongst us, there are all ranges of eloquence and ability to present something like Geocaching in a manner which is likely to be well accepted by the authorities. I applaud the efforts that various individuals have made in putting together, and sharing with the group, presentations like I mentioned. (One example of a work in progress is here.) My hesitance to recommend getting permission, is that if people don’t prepare well before asking for that permission, then a “No” answer means that what once was a grey area (one which we should respect with the utmost care in order for it not to backfire on us…see this related post), has now been banned to us. When I weigh the risks of advising everyone to ask permission (without having knowledge of what manner they will present their request) vs. advising a “don’t ask, don’t tell…but please use common sense!” policy, I still lean toward the latter. Meanwhile, I am attempting to make headway towards pulling together a tool that can be made available to all for ensuring that we are able to shed a consistent (and positive) light on Geocaching when we do ask for permission. quote: If that same manager realizes there is a cache in the park (and still has the belief that Gecacing = digging up the park), then the cache is going to get removed. If a park manager finds a cache that has been BURIED in a park, then by all means, he should remove it…and shame on the cacher who used poor taste to bury it! Those are the kinds of stunts that get our activity banned. ------- Join us at our first "geo-gathering" on 4/27/02!

quote:Originally posted by smoochnme: Is it not important for parks to attract visitors? No, I'm not under the impression that there is a need to attract visitors. Have you ever tried to get reservations for campsites? In the more popular places, they can be tough to get. I think the reason for the park services is to help control visitation, so that there is as little impact/damage as possible. They want to keep these natural areas from being destroyed, so that we, and our children, (and the resident wildlife, of course) can enjoy them for as long as possible. ------- Join us at our first "geo-gathering" on 4/27/02!

quote:Originally posted by The Treasurer: I'm of the opinion that is better for Geocaching in general to ask for permission than to ask for forgiveness. What's the worst they could say? Even if a particular cache were refused by the land manager, an alternative site or method of placement may be acceptable to them. The worst that could happen? That the person you ask will be closed minded, and immediately say "No" without even listening to why it should be allowed...and then raise red flags among the park authorities about rumors that people are burying and abondoning items in the parks, and demand that an end needs to be put to it. They could start a campaign against Geocaching, without even understanding what it is. And once it's been banned, the road to getting it re-allowed will be an uphill one. From my experience (not just with caching, but with ANYTHING), it's easiest for people to say "No" without even checking into it, so that's what they will usually do. I'm of the "ask forgiveness rather than permission" view...with the caveat that we should always use common sense and consideration when placing caches, of course. I also think we should advocate, practice (and take pictures of), the Cache In/Trash Out policy. Then, if/when the time comes to need permission, we can show positive examples of how Geocaching can not only have minimal impact, but it can actually have a positive impact. If we ask for permission first, the burden is on us to convince them to allow it. If the cache is already there, they'll tend to ask themselves why they should demand its removal. If we've set a positive precedent, it's easier for them to allow it, than to explain why it must be removed. If we've been told No, then not only should we not place a cache, but any pre-existing caches should also be removed. I'd rather not cross the permission bridge until we have to...and preferably with some evidence in hand that it really ISN'T a bad thing. ------- Join us at our first "geo-gathering" on 4/27/02!

quote:Originally posted by Steak N Eggs: As for legalities, would you have hidden your TOOL or stoped your actions if a Ranger/State Parks/Forest Service employee came near you? This is a great litmus test for deciding how "right" we really feel about our actions. If we really think that what we’re doing is ok, then we shouldn’t have any qualms about being observed by an authority, since we know we’ll be able to convince them why we’re not doing anything wrong. Well put! ------- Join us at our first "geo-gathering" on 4/27/02!

quote:Originally posted by Steak N Eggs: As for legalities, would you have hidden your TOOL or stoped your actions if a Ranger/State Parks/Forest Service employee came near you? This is a great litmus test for deciding how "right" we really feel about our actions. If we really think that what we’re doing is ok, then we shouldn’t have any qualms about being observed by an authority, since we know we’ll be able to convince them why we’re not doing anything wrong. Well put! ------- Join us at our first "geo-gathering" on 4/27/02!

With my Eagle Explorer, I have to manually enter each waypoint. (I'm in the process of researching for an upgrade. I've given Geocaching enough of a try to feel confident it's something I want to do for awhile. ) However, even with a GPSr that you can automatically download waypoints on to, it makes me a little uneasy to think that there are a lot of people out there looking for caches who haven't even read the cache page. I have put (or seen) cautions on pages to watch out for poison ivy, slippery areas, snakes, or various other possible dangers. Also, many cache descriptions will point out something especially cool to look for or to enjoy while you're there. It seems to me that by not reading the cache pages, you're missing out when you visit the site. ------- Join us at our first "geo-gathering" on 4/27/02!

With my Eagle Explorer, I have to manually enter each waypoint. (I'm in the process of researching for an upgrade. I've given Geocaching enough of a try to feel confident it's something I want to do for awhile. ) However, even with a GPSr that you can automatically download waypoints on to, it makes me a little uneasy to think that there are a lot of people out there looking for caches who haven't even read the cache page. I have put (or seen) cautions on pages to watch out for poison ivy, slippery areas, snakes, or various other possible dangers. Also, many cache descriptions will point out something especially cool to look for or to enjoy while you're there. It seems to me that by not reading the cache pages, you're missing out when you visit the site. ------- Join us at our first "geo-gathering" on 4/27/02!

Well put, Dan. The bottom line that I agree with on the original post is that we should all make a point to excercise caution and consideration when we place caches. If we don't want to be banned or regulated, the best way to avoid it is to be sure that we don't give them any fuel for their arguments. ------- Join us at our first "geo-gathering" on 4/27/02!

Good idea! I've posted the above-mentioned link on the webpage of our local Michigan Geocaching Organization. ------- Join us at our first "geo-gathering" on 4/27/02!

Good idea! I've posted the above-mentioned link on the webpage of our local Michigan Geocaching Organization. ------- Join us at our first "geo-gathering" on 4/27/02!

quote:Originally posted by Feros Family: Have you been there? Have you seen the way these were done? You are basing your "bashing" of me on one mans opinion with out going there to see for your self. In a community as large as this one...especially considering the scrutiny/skeptism the sport is receiving from National authorities, I think we need to draw a clear line in the sand that Geocaching is a low impact activity. Even if this particular case wasn't "that" bad, I'm afraid it would influence others to push the envelope just a bit further (and then those in turn to do the same for the next ones)...pretty soon, we have people blatantly killing trees, and thinking it's ok. Since there's no way for Jeremy to personally visit each and every questionable cache, he has to make a judgment somehow. I'd rather he err on the side of caution, and thus ease the minds of those who would like to see this sport banned. I do agree, though, that the first tactic should be to e-mail the owner, and explain why a particular action should be reconsidered. I believe the response would be much more likely to be cooperative, rather than defensive. ------- Join us at our first "geo-gathering" on 4/27/02!

quote:Originally posted by Atilla the Pun: Please note that these radios are not purely FRS. They are GMRS radios and require a license to use. Atilla, do you know if a person can choose to just use the FRS mode, and not get the license, or do you have to get the license just to own the unit? ------- Join us at our first "geo-gathering" on 4/27/02!

quote:Originally posted by Atilla the Pun: Please note that these radios are not purely FRS. They are GMRS radios and require a license to use. Atilla, do you know if a person can choose to just use the FRS mode, and not get the license, or do you have to get the license just to own the unit? ------- Join us at our first "geo-gathering" on 4/27/02!

I recently moved my Marshall Arts & Cache to a different hiding spot in the same park; but rather than archiving it and resubmitting a new cache page, I just updated the coordinates (and the description) on the existing page. I also temporarily updated the name to include "(UPDATED)", and changed the 'hidden on' date so it would show up as a "New" cache (for a week). After the week was up, I changed the name and date back to the original, but left the update explanation in the cache description. ------- Join us at our first "geo-gathering" on 4/27/02!

In general, I hunt for caches alone (or with my geo-doggy, Daisy ). But on occasion, I've sweet-talked my hubby into joining me; or met up with an out of state Geocaching buddy and combined cache hunting with visiting. I even dragged my boss and a couple of coworkers on a hunt with me once while we were out of state giving a presentation to a customer. It's fun to have someone else along once in a while to pass the time while walking and searching...but as for forming a caching group, where we'd combine our separate finds under one ID, I'd prefer to keep it as an individual hobby rather than a joint-effort one. ------- Join us at our first "geo-gathering" on 4/27/02!

In general, I hunt for caches alone (or with my geo-doggy, Daisy ). But on occasion, I've sweet-talked my hubby into joining me; or met up with an out of state Geocaching buddy and combined cache hunting with visiting. I even dragged my boss and a couple of coworkers on a hunt with me once while we were out of state giving a presentation to a customer. It's fun to have someone else along once in a while to pass the time while walking and searching...but as for forming a caching group, where we'd combine our separate finds under one ID, I'd prefer to keep it as an individual hobby rather than a joint-effort one. ------- Join us at our first "geo-gathering" on 4/27/02!

quote:Originally posted by Warm Fuzzies - Fuzzy: Given that I'd already been eying the GPS Companion anyway (and saying "but what would I ever use one for?") I just had to have one. Isn't it nice to have an 'excuse' to buy those gadgets that we just HAVE to have?

quote:Originally posted by Warm Fuzzies - Fuzzy: Given that I'd already been eying the GPS Companion anyway (and saying "but what would I ever use one for?") I just had to have one. Isn't it nice to have an 'excuse' to buy those gadgets that we just HAVE to have?

I recently had the pleasure of crossing paths for the first time with another Geocacher while we were both out searching for (or, in my case, waiting for the coast to clear so I could re-hide it after logging) a cache. As we chatted for a bit and exchanged stories, he asked, "So what did you originally get your GPS for?" As it turns out, I 'borrowed' (ok, ok...took over) my husband's GPSr, which he had originally bought for marking his tree stand locations while bow hunting in a several-thousand acre public hunting area (Site M) in Illinois. Eight-Legs said that they used theirs for boating. The conversation piqued my curiosity, and has made me wonder how many Geocachers previously owned GPS receivers before they learned about Geocaching, or whether it was Geocaching itself that prompted them to purchase one. Please answer the following survey, and then share your story about when and why you originally purchased your GPS receiver, and what other activities you currently use it for: ------- Join us at our first "geo-gathering" on 4/27/02!

quote:Originally posted by infosponge: I have a TB that's just a postcard with the TB number on it, and there's really clear instructions on it, including a "please don't take this if you're not going to move it to a new cache" plea. Sure enough, grabber #3 took it and sent me a note that they had no idea what it was or what do do with it. Sigh. Luckily they contacted me (thanks to the instructions on the card, I imagine) at least, so I could help educate them. I was a little leery when I saw that the person who retrieved it was only 10 years old. (But at least he figured out how to log the retrieval...I think kids have an easier time with these computer things than some of us adults do.) Hopefully his parents will give him a hand in getting some of the photos you wanted, and sending it on its way. ------- Join us at our first "geo-gathering" on 4/27/02!