evenfall
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Posts posted by evenfall
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Rog,
Make a Copy of your Excel Document, open the copy and save it as a Web Page. Then Publish it to your FTP site.
Rob
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Spoo,
They called North out as a Cardinal Direction so you can't expect too much more from that.
Had you wanted to nail it tighter, The Box Score would have helped you.
OC2620|---------------------------------------------------------------------|
OC2620| PID Reference Object Distance Geod. Az |
OC2620| dddmmss.s |
OC2620| OC2618 ANDREA AZ MK 365.663 METERS 09222 |
OC2620| OC2619 ANDREA RM 1 22.276 METERS 12607 |
OC2620| CE7187 ANDREA RM 2 21.178 METERS 23622 |
OC2620|---------------------------------------------------------------------|
Best Regards,
Rob
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To use a Bench Mark for vertical control, I must rest a level rod or Prism pole upon the top of the disc to measure the elevation. That very point is the elevation on the datasheet. If the disc itself is gone, or altered somehow, the elevation it was said to have is gone. The rule is I cannot use it to tie in if the numbers do not concur.
I consider the the elevation gone, Not found. I submit them as such and it is my call. This is what my training and experience tells me. I found the station monument, or what is left, Sure, but the station's data quality is gone, and that is what i need. I cannot destroy it, so this is my way of saying there is nothing here that can be used to the next guy, and I note why. This only holds true for vertical control.
If it is triangulation, It is a different deal. I do not have to physically touch the Disc for my measurements, though I can. I am merely aiming for the center. I can use it's center if the disc is missing, so I consider it Poor, but certainly still usable.
Feel free to ask Deb if you like, But I work the field and that is how I call them. I am also Basing this from what is required of me given the engineering spec I am following at the time. Most often than not, I can't use data which I cannot derive, and compare.
Rob
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Hi Greg,
I'll stick with my Observations.
I believe that people get what they negotiate, I have never seen success come from waiting for someone to hand it to me. I have had to reach for it all.
Waiting to see what will happen and accepting what is given can be likened to being a welfare recipient. I See your point, Take what you get, and while that is fine for a lot of people, as we have seen, there are a number of people who did not wait for geocaching to do it for them. They made something to do it for themselves. Further, in many industries we tend to work with the process and make it right as we go, not tweek the final product after the fact. It is often more sensible to do it while the process is, well, In process.
It is my observation that there is a long established pattern of waiting around here, for Geocaching to bestow a gift, and you know what it is never a lot and a long time in coming. But if the folks here would be happy to wait, well then that is what it is.
I have tried several times to see if a team of people here can develop some ideas, decide what is most wanted, and go to Geocaching to officially negotiate for what can be done. Each time I noticed that the lion's share of the people avoided the thread like the plague, then those who would chime in would bring a laundry list to the table a mile long with an air about them of, nothing can be omitted from this list as it simply will not work for me... Well, Hehehe That is right neighborly... Most kids on the playground avoid that kid and they play alone. In any case, the threads don't see much debate and die rather quickly.
So In lieu of the many complaints, and wishes for Benchmark hunting aids and upgrades I often read here in these forums, I suppose that it is time to conclude that the Benchmark hunters are perhaps complainers who refuse to agree on simple beginning constructs as a way to move the hobby forward, unable to agree on what it is the truly want on the whole, and prefer passive aggressive griping over accomplishment and ideas, for the betterment of their hobby? Going forth I suppose it would be out of line to ask Jeremy for anything? I would like to add, that if people do not want to become involved in the process of developing their hobby, and trying to fill in the want list through working together to better it, then they are sort of nullifying their privilege to gripe about it.
Nothing happens when nobody moves a muscle, and the only action I have seen has been a collective, and rather passive aggressive vote to not take any action. If this is what I am supposed to perceive and is the message I am supposed to get from the group, then I don't see any further reason to try and inspire or suggest.
I am not trying to rile anyone here, but I don't see the need to call it what it is not. It isn't about being plastic Nice all the time, it is about good debate and seeing if something can be collectively agreed upon to ask for and move the hobby forward. Better PQ's, a more interactive Database, Fresher datasheets, better statistical control on official finds. The list can go on... If you all cannot settle on it and propose what you would like to see to Jeremy, and then work with him to get it done, I don't see how you can expect for him to read your minds and bestow it upon you.
So go ahead folks, debate me on this. Make me wrong. Those who do not chime in have no voice and I'll remember that if they choose to chime in after the fact. Those who do will have to roll up their sleeves and see what they can form a consensus about. Those who ultimately "get it" Know that Jeremy has little to persuade him to do anything here, and the squeaky wheels over at the geocacher side keep him well busy keeping them and their wants greased.
Based on what I have seen, I will keep my expectations low. But I would love to see someone begin proving me wrong. Yet on the other hand and After all, It might not be a good Idea to take action at this point, in fact, why even get out of bed? :-)
Any takers?
Rob
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Bill,
You said: "This leaves the question of how a rivet or some other non-disk marks could ever be trusted. "
Bill, Use the description. It is a case by case kind of thing. Trust comes from following the directions and experience, This is not a plastic bubble. You are actually allowed to use judgment and experience.
I find it very interesting that you would see it this way, after all, by now you might have realized that very little in the world is cut and dried, sterile or tidy.
Interesting...
Rob
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Greg,
I Don't PQ Them Either, Don't care to. I use NGS.
What I am trying to see here, as an observation, is if the Benchmark Hunters have the Political Will to Lobby Geocaching and Jeremy for something they want... That and to keep after it till something proactive occurs.
They need to email Jeremy directly or go to the Geocaching website Forum, but so far the will looks really low.
I know Jeremy does not read this forum so complaining here will never matter at all... I do read a lot of wants that emanate from around here, yet nothing ever happens, nor does it seem like people organize to form a concerted effort. No team... I have tossed out a few methods that might get Jeremy's attention though, and All I have seen over there is the Pursuit of a safer Ansi Compliant vest... Non of his buddies supported him though. Not sure if they ever really came down to knowing what they want and agreeing to go after it. Been wondering if a Bug can be put in any ear around here. Mostly there is resistance, oh and skepticism... Sure there are a few exceptions but... <shrugs>
Gotta wonder where the ol' rubber meats the road I guess :-) BDT, I mean most specifically that in order to get the things you want, Hoping is not enough. I have no attachment to it either way, I don't have a dog in the fight, but I know you must ASK, and the ASKing must be done over in that other forum called the Geocaching website forum, or Jeremy's email Box...
Rob
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Just bumping this up to see if any of the local wanters have been being proactive. Has anyone tried to open a dialog with Jeremy via email or over on the Geocaching website forum?
I hadn't seen any action in the public channels and was just wondering if this issue is as important as people make it out to be... Maybe? Maybe not?
Rob
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Kyle,
You said: "all that is required to report it as destroyed is a photograph of the area where the station is supposed to be.
So, why do I keep hearing everyone talk about finding proof it was destroyed"
The Photo would be proof. It shows NGS Personnel that the described Item on the Datasheet is no longer present, "as described" They have their requirements and the onus is on us to meet them.
This is a Landmark type, third order control station. All that is needed is a Photo and a little research to prove the item is the original, or if it is not. In the case of it no longer existing, that is pretty telling. If you can show NGS that you are at the station coordinates and nothing is there, that pretty much is proof, so photo the are and photo your GPS Screen showing you are at the prescribed location to prove the original item is not there and you should be good to go.
Good Luck,
Rob
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Blackdog,
In Lieu of you checking in with Deb Brown, I took the liberty.
Here is what she told me:
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From: Deb Brown <Deb.Brown@noaa.gov>
To: Evenfall
Date: Jun 24, 2005 7:55 AM
Subject: Re: Survey Mark Photo submission
Hi Rob,
We have a large backlog of photos waiting for a batch loading program
that's "supposed" to be written this summer sometime. For now, ...if you
wish, please continue to send me photos via email in the naming format
I've described.
Feel free to post this on the geo site if you wish.
deb
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And So, I wish, so there you go gang, Please continue to format and send photos as asked. If you do not do it now, you probably won't do it later. Call me silly but that is human nature.
Why put off today, what you could get out of having to at all?...
So send them Photos... Let NGS worry about future formatting. The benefit to them begins when the photos are in their hands.
Rob
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No Geo, I think you did just fine. We have been over this many times. If anyone is still confused, it never hurts for people to use google and learn something for themselves. They could also use the search engine here to read all that has already been said as well.
Rob
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Yes,
For what you want to do, you need to contact the nice people at http://benchmark.gps-fun.com/
Good Luck,
Rob
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BDT,
What you do not take into account is that Joe is not Deb and does not do Deb's Job, In Fact he does not work in Deb's office and have anything to do with the work Deb Does.
See, NGS is a big office and people are assigned responsibilities. Very specifically, Deb is collecting submitted photos via email as one of her duties, and she has done so from me. Many Photos. And I went to trouble to format them exactly as she asked.
While Joe is a Geodesist and works at the agency, and is correct that NGS has no officially formatted method of accepting photos, he is not in control of Deb's tasks and workload and though he may be aware of some things from an official agency overview, he may not have been aware of what Deb has been doing in order to get information from Geocachers.
He may not have misspoken, but then he may not have known all the details.
I am aware of who does what. I have contact with NGS. They are a big agency and the work is split up amongst many. The right hand does not necessarily know what the right hand is doing. That is not how the chain of command works. Deb asked for the Photos. It is specific to her job to collect them. Joe is not her supervisor either. Just because she is busy and allows Casey to be the liaison to geocaching, (Read Casey does his job, Deb does hers) (In the case of Casey, As assigned by the director of NGS, Charlie Challsworth) it does not mean she changed her mind on the photos. I feel you might pay Deb the courtesy of an email to allow her to explain to you that she is still collecting the photos. Because last time I checked, she very happily is accepting them. Again, Please pay us all the courtesy of an email to Deb, come back here and let us know. It is her job, not Joe's.
Let us not make statements that shoot the efforts of the NGS in the foot. Let us not hamper their efforts to do what they can. They are a slow moving government agency, and such is the culture of government agencies. While all of the people I have spoken to there realize this, the want is to move as quickly as they can.
So email deb and get back to us, Will you?
Rob
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So as to refresh everyone's memory:
QUOTE (DebBrown @ Mar 30 2004, 10:00 AM)
Hi Geocachers,....
I've received several emails asking to clarify misconceptions about the criteria we (NGS) has for reporting on the condition of our control stations. I'd like you all to feel free to email me at Deb.Brown@noaa.gov or use this forum to post your questions. Emailing me would be best for an expedient answer.
Here are some basic guidelines:
1) A station is reportable to NGS if it has a PID.
2) A PID is a 2-letter/4-digit number assigned to every station (regardless of establishing agency) that NGS has positional or height observational and descriptive data on.
3) Not every station you will find is reportable to NGS because we may not have positional or height observational and descriptive data for it and therefore no PID.
4) You can find the PID for a station by visiting our website at www.ngs.noaa.gov Go to "Datasheets/find or update a point". From there click on "Datasheets" and from there do a search using the station name or position of the marker. It's self explanatory from there.
5) The time between recovery reports should not be more frequent than 1 year UNLESS the condition of the marker or the descriptive information has changed since the last report. Before submitting recovery information, please access the datasheet to see when it was last reported on.
6) A station whose setting is stable and the marker undisturbed or unmarred is considered to be in "GOOD" condition.
7) A station whose setting is unstable but intact or the marker broken or marred or stamping unreadable should be listed as "POOR/DISTURBED". In the text portion of the form explain the condition in detail.
8) For a station that is destroyed,...do NOT report it on the online form but instead:
a) if it's a disk or underground marker, take a digital photo of the remnants
and send it to me via email at Deb.Brown@noaa.gov along with the PID
and designation of the station. The photo must be in JPEG format.
if it's a landmark station such as an antenna, tower, tank etc. then a
photo of the area showing where the station "used" to be is sufficient.
Send it to me in JPEG format via email along with the PID and
designation.
c) If you know the station is destroyed but there are no remnants to photo-
graph or some other type of "proof" of the destruction is unavailable,
then use the online recovery form to submit a "NOT FOUND" report and
in the text portion explain your determination and why. Do not send me
an email about it.
9) At present, we are working on adding the options of photo submissions and hand held gps positions to the online recovery form. It's not available yet. Until it is you can send me photos via email of stations if they meet the following criteria:
a) The file size must be a meg or less.
The name of the file MUST be PID_YYYYMMDD_A <or> C.JPG (IN ALL
CAPS)
c) I need 2 photos of each marker, one area (A) with a background
reference object and one close-up © showing the stamping.
d) Photos cannot contain images of anything inappropriate or people/pets.
NOTE: The criteria for submitting photos found on our website is intended for those submitting blue-booked projects. It's more stringent than that for recovery submissions. Use the criteria I mentioned above for your recovery work.
10) For the time-being, please include your hand held position in the text portion of the recovery form.
11) If you find a discrepancy on our datasheet, send me via email, a detailed explanation of it and why you feel it's in error. I'll make any appropriate database changes.
12) In general, a station is suitable for satellite observations if there is an unobstructed view of the sky from about 15 degrees above the horizon. Small objects such as light poles are ok.
13) Please don't include personal phone numbers on the form. As well, please don't include questions or comments directed to me using the form. Email me instead.
I hope this information helps. I've tried to answer questions most frequently asked. If you have any others, please feel free to contact me.
deb
So I don't see a problem beyond following direction.
Rob
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I think re-sizing photographs and re-naming with those arcane names to satisfy NGS proposed photography standards might be a waste of time since the size constraints and detailed name convention exists simply because they currently have no automated system of accepting, cataloging, and storing photographs, like GC.com does. I suspect that if and when they do, those standards will change completely.
The above is true if you're just preparing to send, and not sending any to the NGS at this time. I'd say wait until they really solicit photographs as part of their recovery page programming.
In the thread just referenced in the last post, the NGS people are saying, between the lines, - don't send us pictures now. They're not refusing to accept them, but they're apparently far from soliciting them (at the present time).
BDT,
I am not sure were you get this idea. I see your idea as a way of justifying to people that they should not do this because you think it is currently too difficult.
I think It is inappropriate to say NGS does not want the photos when they have already outlined how they would like them submitted to them for the time being.
They asked for formatting and sizing. Just because it does not automate it and make it easy for you does not mean they would not be happy to have them.
I think you are making policy for NGS where there isn't one. The simple way out for those who do not want to submit photos for now is don't. But don't Meddle or try to out think , even apply your spin on the meanings NGS has for doing what they are doing. If you are wanting to know, Don't spin it, simply write them and ask. If you have a problem with their methodologies then simply opt-out.
If you want to send Photos to NGS, they format them in accordance with the direction you have been given and email them to Deb Brown.
Though this has all been previously decided for the interim, Why not ask Casey to give you an update and simply follow the direction he gives you for now? If you would rather not follow the direction, fine, but let that be your choice, don't appoint you decision as the rule everyone else needs to follow. NGS would still like to have the photos. Format them as they ask, what they do with them afterwards is their business.
NGS Datasheets will not support HTML and linking to a photo off site at geocaching.com assumes Geocaching will be here in a year, 10 years and 100 years without changing their database... Bad Idea. That link will be in the NGS Datasheet forever.
Beyond putting it off, the photos are best sent in while you remember the details. Send them in and let NGS deal with them from there. Far better for them to be in their hands than to never send them at all.
If you want to help NGS, The best way is to follow their direction. That is pretty much the best approach to working with them.
Rob
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Red,
I know that area, This is the mainline between Seattle and Everett. BNSF has pulled all the 39 ft rail years ago, it is all welded rail now, so you will have to go with 39 foot estimates and pace it off. Be careful of the mile posts. They replace them from time to time and do not put them back in the same place. I have seen them used in many descriptions and I rarely find them in the right or described place. Yu will be in the 2100 foot range, south of Picnic Point road. You will be trespassing on BNSF right of way, and they will not be friendly if they catch you.
As for the poles... BNSF Abandoned the telegraph years ago, It is a Huge Motorola Radio system with tone repeaters now, Standard AAR radio frequency allocations, in the 161 Mhz VHF range, You can listen in to all of it if you program all the AAR channels on a scanner and scan them. Everything else is going fiber optic. The old Telegraph poles are rotting off and falling down. There are occasional land slides in that area so it is hard to say what is still in tact for old poles.
If you go and can find it, take a GPS waypoint and see if you can figure a way to update the description. Your hunt may be the key to this stations future.
Good luck!
Rob
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Back to my.02.
Trust me, The Plain vest is going to serve the best. Really.
You are not officially sanctioned by anyone. No one will vouch for you. NGS has said they will not assume responsibility, in fact when pressed they will back away at high speed. Geocaching already has a vest, they are for sale so they can make money. Want one? Buy it. It is an officially authorized garment.
You are on your own, no business no license no insurances no nothing. Why give the public someone to assign responsibility and liability on for something you didn't even do. It happens. Someone will see a finger in their Chili and name you as the culprit.
Trust me when I say I have seen this happen in my career. Why bring it on yourself?
Trucking operators would love to avoid the law that says they need a company name on the door. There are times it is good to be anonymous.
Generic... Think Generic, keep it simple.
Geocaching probably won't license the use of their logo without remuneration.
Rob
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Another Opinion from a Pro in the field. I wear a Vest made by SECO. They are a maker of many different things for the Survey Community. Cordura, Lots of pockets, All full, the things weighs a ton but it is the nature of the biz. It does meet ANSI specs for highway use. It was almost $100.00. It is Very Durable and able to endure everyday HARD use. I am not reccomending this vest per se, as I don't see where people will really have need for it, but many of us in the field wear the Filsons and the Secos because we need the durability.
ANSI compliance is a pretty big deal these days if you are working near a road. I mean this from an official standpoint. I am saying that as Industry Professionals, we are required to wear them. There are people who in official capacities can ask that you be wearing adequate protection. They can also levy fines if we don't. Most Companies who bid these jobs require it because the contracts require it.
Please do not underestimate the motoring public. Kenewah, Z15 and I could bore you for hours with stories of almost, near misses due to traffic. I won't go into a few people I used to know before they were killed in traffic related accidents on the Job.
Being seen and remaining alive should be your first want.
I would not have any silkscreened wording. Not Geocaching, and Not Surveyor, as you are there because you want to be. Geocaching is not responsible for you and you are not Surveyors. Trust me, Not everyone likes Surveyors either. Walking the Talk is important there. You do not want to be asked questions you cant answer. A simple Safety vest is all that is needed.
Who you are and what you are doing is your business as far as most people are concerned, and those who may ask need not be given extra info about you before they ask. It is best they not have preconceived notions about you. Be prepare with a good attitude and answer when asked.
A simple vest with pockets and Ansi Class 3 safety specs can be had for around $30.
Keep it simple, and be safe.
Rob
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Just call it Business acumen, I have worked with a lot of "types" in my career. Ultimately, it is nice to get something done eventually, and hey, there is nothing wrong with having goals to reach on your own agenda. The "if wishes were fishes" theory is great for people who enjoy sitting on their hands, and waiting for someone else to do something, then becoming a counter culture resistive component of why nothing should ever be done is not usually helpful either. But they deserve what they often get to be. Envious and without.
Jeremy is a Squeeky wheel Person. He has lots of fires and the biggest get attention. Sooooooo, If you want him to pay attention to your wants, you gotta be there in his realm of attention and become a Hotter fire or Squeakier wheel.
I would think if people figure out what the want list is and then go over to the website forum and his email box, perhaps there could be some action, answers and results... But I never see it happen so I dunno.
I have tested my theories here, and you know what. I cannot really say what Benchmark Hunters want other than PQ's... I would have to say that I don't really see a unified front. I have even tried Proposals with folks here, And I have seen primarily resistance and many who opt out and say nothing. There are no clear leaders, perhaps some anti leaders though. So perhaps it is just better to complain, eh?
So when everyone organizes enough to decide it, and goes to Jeremy with the requests and stays there till they are answered, perhaps change will be possible. But we have seen that Change is pretty slow around here.
I would love to see the Benchmark Hunting Community receive better representation and some finer tools but I think they need to collectively decide what it is, want it, and lobby for it. I have not seen it happen. Who knows if it will. It is not all up to me.
Good Luck.
Rob
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I am Not asking for PQ's... I don't use them. I am suggesting that if you guys really want change that you should try contacting Jeremy directly rather than going on for months about how nothing ever seems to happen. While I'll agree that it sure looks like little changes, I watch to see if anyone will take it up with him and they don't. It seems odd.
I know it will take some courage on the part of someone to do this, but it is the only way you guys will get what you want. Someone needs to open a Dialog with Jeremy. Sorry, but I am not who that needs to be. :-) I am just offering the solution. If no one opens a Dialog with him, it is safe to say that things will remain as they are.
If no one bothers, None here have any further place to complain.
The NGS website works for me 100% so I have no want for PQ's. But I know you all have your wants. It just seems Bizarre that no one just emails Jeremy and asks. It isn't rocket science and he puts his pants on the same way everyone else does.
Good Luck.
Rob
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Bicknell,
It's all good, I just wanted to see if you knew. But remember to be clear so that the people who read the forum all the time though we don't realize it, can follow along and learn from you too!
You never know when you are the teacher.
Rob :-)
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Bicknell,
Vertical control is adjusted too, so if a station is adjusted, are you telling me something? And what would it be that you are.
Adjusted all by itself is pretty misleading, ya think? I mean some stations are adjusted in one plane or the other, some both. No stations are not adjusted in none of the planes or they would not qualify for published control.
Is there a better way you can describe it? :-)
Rob
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Just bumping this discussion a little to see if there is and desire to attempt a Dialog with Jeremy as I mentioned in my earlier post in this thread.
Nothing will happen from muttering here...
Any thoughts?
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Hey Jim,
Looks like you have a good start on a Benchmark Hunting Glossary for your website there. Nice work! Might be a nice resource for people to refer to.
Since we have little in the way of moderation in this forum, I doubt we could pin the thread here. Probably easier to save as a book mark and refer others to the link when needed.
Thanks again,
Rob
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Sevenfooter1,
I would be happy to help you answer this question.
First I would like to refer you to the benchmark hunting FAQ page, which is located here:
http://www.geocaching.com/mark/
If after you have read that you still have some questions, I am sure we can help answer them here.
Good Luck.
Rob
Handling Of Erroneous Recovery Reports ?
in Benchmarking
Posted
Bos,
When I am using an NGS Datasheet in the course of my job, and I get to the Narrative texts, I read through them all... I put a lot of credence on the Monumenting Narrative and then I think of the subsequent recoveries of he station as a history of the times it has been searched for. I know thing change with the times and that people can make mistakes in both interpretation and betting mixed up during the redefinition of describing features. It is easy to do.
It is not uncommon to find that in the subsequent narratives, a lot of new and helpful information has been added to the narrative listings that aid us further and easier than the original description. Is is a case by case thing, and is just a record of that localities evolution.
It is also safe to say that what we find that seem like errors, may have been true for a time, and now no longer is. Everything, and I mean everything is Temporal, no matter how semipermanent we attempt to make it.
So I look for what is changed and what is still the same. The things that seem to have changes become suspect to me, for they may have changed or they may be errors. Things that have remained the same through many observations are likely still the same.
These Narrative descriptions really are a form of story problem, They hold Truisms and falsehoods and a lot of peripheral info. We really have to work each of them as a puzzle having it's own merits. The trick is that at the start, we do not know what the merits are. I once recovered a second order horizontal station which had been described in so many ways that it would have taken over 2 hours to confirm them all. The Mark had two reference marks monumented in drill holes along a Curb, and though they both pointed at the Buried Station, there was nothing in the Narrative that detailed how to find the station using the reference marks. For instance. How would you find the Station with two tape measures used a swing lines from the Reference marks, which would be the most accurate and easiest way to find the buried station. It seemed odd to me that the station was never referenced to the 2 objects which were truly placed to help it be found. I can assure you that the description has been updated now.
So in the end, After I have found the station and if I find errors in the subsequent narratives, I simply correct them by referring to the errors directly and I also confirm what I actually did measure while I was there. I may also choose to confirm again what has always been so the next user knows which of the old descriptors are still remaining relevant to the description when I was here. If time is kind to the locality, hopefully I have left them something they can use.
Rob