evenfall

All nice assumptions on your part John, Too bad it isn't something that you actually know. Thank you for you Troll like "Take" on things. Rob

I realize what you are driving at John. A Legitimate Faux-Rhetorical test. Nice. How Oxymoronic. The Fact of the matter is, that your motivation for doing it is that of a Troll. I knew where you were headed in the first place. But I know the reason behind your game. and the motivations behind your question are not what you hope people will think. A Ruse is no longer a Ruse when it is set out for all to see in the light of day. If your rhetorical revolving answer to a supposed question is anything less than "How Many Fingers am I holding behind my back?", I'd be surprised. But you know, The NOAA changed a lot of things for no apparent reason when they took things over in the 70's. I would venture to guess that the people who work there could not give you an answer beyond a best guess. No worries, as I know you will never check. If you were to check in, as a Hypothetical happenstance, which of course will never occur, NGS would tell you that the term "Benchmark" is unfortunately used as a colloquialism to describe Survey markers, which is incorrect, and is a common misunderstanding. One they wish was not happening, but can't seem to do a lot about except to foster the use of the correct terminology whenever they can. Some of us realize that you have the "I'm going to do things the way I want to" Gene in your pool, and have given up on you ever "getting it". It apparently does not matter that terms have been defined, and what is, is, You skipped class that day. It is ok, You have your Opinion. The difference here is that while you and the NOAA have the "No apparent reason" commonality between you as a what appears to be a character trait, They are a government agency, and you enjoy acting like a Troll. That is the difference. You are a geocacher John, and I suppose you perceive this as a ticket for you to do as you please. This is not an uncommon theme among many on the internet who feel that they can act differently than they would in society. I suppose that too, is a case of what is, is. But I don't have to tolerate your troll behavior especially when you direct it towards me. I would probably at this point mention it if I were to see that you were directing it towards someone else. If you would like me to stop pointing out your behavior, I'll need to see your behavior change. Many of us hope you will rethink your behavior, John. We're waiting. Rob

Lime, I am Fine, Really. I am Just pointing out that John Here enjoys acting like a Troll. Of course it would be less fun for him to act a bit more responsibly but this is his "flow", His way of exalting himself, His way of establishing his superiority. In the larger scheme of things, this type of behavior is not considered desirable in society. It seems sad to have fun at the expense of others as much as he seems to enjoy it. He enjoys engaging in subtle, innuendo-like forms of social warfare, such as the thread we are in right now. For some reason he thinks I am a Victim, But that idea is actually funnier than his attempts at being humorous. I wish he had more self esteem, but hey. If he were more confident, I feel he would not need this "Boost" for his ego, But I digress. He seems to enjoy acting like a Troll, I like exposing Trolls. The Hope is that he will modify his behavior and begin to act more responsibly. Which is the real flow around here when you look at the value of the average thread. Thanks for your Kind thoughts about both of us, I enjoy your input too. I stated my Opinion, and made no rule. Forums are for discussion. I made no rule, I just pointed out a source of confusion which is a common Topic here, sorting out the terminology and clarifying things. Over time you will see a lot of confusion over definitions and though it is what it is, and this is a technical subject by it's very nature, it could have been avoided. It is the technicalities such as that one, which cause the confusion. In comparison, I offered what I did in a manner no different than John often does when he is helping out. The difference is that I do not repeatedly take him to task for the manner he helps out. If I have something worth of adding, I add, He generally enjoys helping with Cache, Benchmark Game and GPS questions. I figure he handles it fine, and does not need my second opinion so I don't feel the need to offer it. I don't make it a point to find ways I can disagree with John. If you look back over the last year you will see plenty of instances in the history where he has chosen to spar with me on many issues, and has not treated me with the same respect that I afford him. These internet Forums are what they are, I agree. But sometimes the elbows get a bit too sharp and we must smooth them off so it is easier for things to "Flow". I have offered to discuss this with him, and have always answered my email, but he has yet to step forward and attempt to forge an agreement with me of any kind. So, The stepping back period has unfortunately passed, and we are trying this new procedure. I am hoping we come to an understanding soon. Best Regards, Rob

Troll?

Troll?

Troll?

4leaf, You ought to become a Forum Regular. You would fit right in with the other self appointed rule benders around here. Just don't get on their bad side though or the'll be like a Hell Hound on your Trail. By the way, I took the liberty of having both your collected survey markers officially destoyed at NGS. Hope you wont mind! Rob

Spoo, I feel for you man, You could have had all this for free. Why Pay? What does Jeremy give you in return for Benchmark hunting funding? Nada. This has never been about me dude. I never had to ask the questions. But Spoo Really, God? Please... Don't Flatter yourself. You are the one who is sitting in Judgment of me. You want it all your way. It was you who entered this thread and attacked me. I simply stated an opinion, you are just a person resisting my opinion yet have absolutely nothing to add. Get over yourself. Go back to your beer. I wish you were worthy of debate, Forums are a good use for that, but alas, you aren't or you would have offered something by now. John, Hell, you know I think your a Troll, You have followed me around the forum like bubble gum on my shoe. Jabbing, attacking, resisting, acting like a hater. Your mocking made me laugh. You could never live and let live. But hey, Benchmark forums would be great if you were the only one in it. You won't debate either, You just remind me about your difficulties with english. Black Dog, I'd respond to you but hell, it would become a 2 page thread before you understood. I don't want to see you look that sad again, ever. You have the record for how many times a question can be asked and re-asked without being understood. The earth let out a sigh when you gave up. Hope you had a nice trip this last weekend. I am glad you remembered to make a waypoint for your car and made it home safe. The best thing I learned from the three (actually four) of you is that there are some great folks in this Forum, and the contrasts which you provide really make them pop out. Believe Me, Some of the antics you guys pull have kept me in stitches and hell, The rest of Geocaching is not so sure of what happens in here either. (It would right a new chapter in a book about NLP should Richard Bandler decide to study you.) Well that extends beyond geocaching too. But hey, you guys have been watched and it has been decided that you are too resistive as a group and can't fall in step so as to really work with anyone. It was a nice test though. There are some great individual contributors though and they don't need pats on the back like the crows do. So It really does look like you are playing amongst yourselves. You may as well be happy with that 5 year old database. You wanted it left the way it is through indecisiveness and inaction, so I hope you got what you wanted. As to the ones who made a difference, you know who you are, You are doing Great work. Don't worry about the Gamer Bullies who wanna pat themselves on the back all day while wishing the game was all about them, and keep the rest of you from learning. Don't allow their inertia to weigh you down. Volunteer to help if that is what you like, and in spite of the gamer bullies, keep discussing the knowledge and sharing it with others. Tell newcomers the truth and strive to be accurate, Do not follow in the footsteps of these fine gentlemen who feel they should tell you how to play. Play any way you want. Reach Higher. You now know who the Big three are. They make no bones about wanting to be the boss over all of you. They have already run off plenty of potential players here, Don't let them get you down. All you guys really needed was the knowledge and information. You did all the rest. Best regards to the folks who make the difference. Rob

Geo, It depends on which way you want to work it, East or West, it can represent the same place. The United States Quadrant is North and West, and since it is normal to think in this way, It can reduce errors to stay in that groove. Guam is a US Territory, and so it goes. Rob

Spoo, You attribute this to me: There are times when I throw out a question or 'crow'. I use this forum. When I have a question of serious magnitude or technical need, I use the NGS forum. According to evenfall, anyone here that is NOT a surveyor should not be answering any questions. I apologize to all I have given mis-information to in answering their questions. BS. Prove it. You cant. While you are editing you should stick to the facts. I defy you to find where I have even alluded to such Crap. Am I pissed at you? Heck No, What you said affects your integrity not mine. I will happily stand behind anything I have ever said in here. I have never said any such thing. Scroll up. I made the comment that the word benchmark is a misnomer and is misleading. I feel it confuses people in to thinking of all types of survey data as benchmark data and in the truth of the matter it isn't. It is vertical data only. I feel being accurate in our terminology and discussion leads to a uniform understanding of the subject by all people. This way we don't have to explain reality over and over. We don't have to explain when a benchmark is not a bench mark.... It is confusing to many. It takes a great deal of discussion sometimes to correct some people's thinking and it is not their fault they have it wrong. It was introduced to them as a misnomer without explanation in the first place and then becomes part of their idiom. I feel it is a shame, I feel we could do better. It is my comment. It's My Opinion. It is amazing to me that as someone who works in an engineering field does not understand it. Listen, if you want to play with survey markers fine. If you want to learn about the technical aspects of survey markers, then prepare to accept the truth about them from the definitions ascribed to them by the industry that developed the technology. When you ask a technical question, be prepared for the answer. If you have a problem with answers from professionals who willingly and politely answer them, then buy a book, use google and refrain from asking where a professional can answer you properly. When I need an electrician, or ask them a question, I don't tell him how to do his Job, and I accept the answers he gives me. Get my meaning? But please Spoo, don't flatter yourself. And next time you want to engage in character assassination against me, Use caution, and quote me correctly. Heck, quote be directly with Bibliography. You should know well by now that I am more than happy to stand up and defend my beliefs very vigorously and I will debate you anytime. I have been here before and have no problem. I am not afraid of debate or difficult conversation. So stick to the facts. Better yet, Don't become a Troll too. Rob

John, I feel you are passing judgment on everyone here. There are plenty of posters having fun in their way. Just because they are not having fun Your way, what gives you the right to impose the definition of fun on any of these people? It is impolite to impose the way you thing this should be John. In truth it still is the way you want it to be. No one is stopping you from enjoying this hobby the way you like. No one has made back handed comments or sniped at you No one has been resistant towards the way you want to play. But you have engaged others and most specifically me in that sort of actions, and I am sorry John, I don't appreciate it, and there are others here who didn't think it was so swift either. I have never excluded any kind of play here in this Forum, I have encouraged it all. I have advocated that people should do things similar to the way you enjoy this as much as I have promoted other ways. I have been inclusive of all things except cheating. My record stands for itself. I even Lobbied for you. I have always promoted that everyone here should exercise fun in the way they want to, but I have seen this evolve beyond just what you like. Other people have come into this and contributed ways that helped to evolve the fun. You need to come to grips with this. You are on record for sniping at this evolution, you are on record for mocking it and making backhanded comments. You have been nothing less than overtly confrontational toward me for nearly a year, and it is all in your history John. You have not been the least bit kind. You have acted like a Troll. Your record is easy to look back on. People need only click your Forum Title and a page will open that lists all the forum posts for any user. Even you. Even the blind could easily see the social warfare you have engaged in around here in your desire to limit this hobby JUST to the aspects of it you enjoy and think it should be. You think this should be limited to being just a game, It is a game John, but it has evolved beyond that. People wanted that and that is why. People are discussing more than just the game John, They have evolved beyond just the Self congratulatory self back patting look at what I found pics. Sure it is fun to gloat John, but some people actually find other aspects of this edifying. I can assure you that your negativity towards the evolution of benchmark hunting has been less than supportive to many. It is sad that you could not be like many of us are, while supportive of the way you enjoy this, being inclusive of how others enjoy it too. Like I said in an earlier post, If it bothers you so much that others here enjoy technical discussion, please recommend the NGS forum to them, gently, and provide them the link. I promoted that forum very vigorously because I knew you would be a troll about this later on, and here you are. The sad thing is that back when I was lobbying for that forum, I really did have you in mind. I wanted to free you from having to endure the tech talk, but you are on record for opposing that forum. Heck, you have even posted in the forum over there within technical discussions, and as usual, you were not being supportive of anything either. In fact, as I recall you are on record for being a troll towards me. You not only vigorously opposed people having that forum as a place to talk tech, you have come out yet again as wishing it didn't happen here, now. It is sad that you seek to limit the ways people have chosen to have fun John. One can easily see where you stand here. Here, try this, be a good egg and promote the use of the NGS Forum, so the technical discussions will take up over there. Further, If you don't like what you are seeing, simply stop reading it. Change the channel. You are the captain over your life over there. We are all aware of what you and Shirley enjoy and no one is asking you to stop. So please if you would, Accept that we are glad you are having fun the way you like, without us imposing on the way you enjoy it, and let the rest decide for themselves which way they want to have fun. What you long for is a Nostalgic Unicorn John, A Mystical creature you thought you saw, but has now evolved. it may have been how things were but it is not what they are. Live in today with us John, and stop being a Troll towards the now many various ways people have their fun here. You want to have fun? Cool. Go Have it. No one is stopping you. In fact Black Dog has kept the light on for you with his threads filled with Benchmark Pics and Finds. You are still free to start as many threads as you like. Please quit hassling people over the way they want to have fun. Get over yourself. If you can't do that, then Move on. Rob

Nah Spoo your close, But no Cigar, But you know, if you want to talk to me as an electrical engineer, you can bet I am going to do my home work on you so I can have a conversation. I am not going to ask you to explain to me the theory of AC power is and what the differences are between impedance and resistance are, and how they affect a circuit, and then tell you that I would rather refer to things as whatever I want, in lieu of what a time honored tradition in electrical research has termed a certain way. I work with experts all the time. I let them be experts and I do my best to communicate with them in terms where we both draw similar meanings. If I had my terminology wrong, would you not try to correct me out of kindness for my misinterpretations? I would hope so, and if I am humble and in the learn something new every day mindset you speak of, then I am happy I was corrected and all the better for it. Now If I defy you and say I am sticking with the terminology I want to, and I am incorrect, you shake your head, shrug, and go back to the beer in your hand. I don't Blame you. Geocaching's Benchmark game is a super mixed metaphor. It uses incorrect terminology, It confuses Datum with the correct one to use, and display formats which are not the traditional one to use and when you try to talk tech, no one is on the same page, and when you try to introduce them to time honored industry standards, People get confused. Why? Because they learned wrong in the first place and don't know any better, then they feel insulted when someone who is a professional in the field is talking tech and nothing Jibes. Then, once someone gets answered, someone else comes along and adds 2 cents worth that clouds the issue More. Why, because they too sometimes have an incomplete understanding, even thought they have a good heart and want to help. All thanks in part because Geocaching got it wrong in the first place. So what's the rub, It's a game! Hehehe Till they teach others wrong with their misunderstandings and then it snowballs, and you know in a way, that genie is already out of the bottle a long time ago. Tell you what, Spoo think of this, I am going to call the unit which measures electromotive force, an Ohm. Next I am going to put a sign on a door, which says, BEWARE! 10,000,000 OHMS! Plus or minus 10% because we got this one from Radio Shack... :-) See where I am going? This is a tough and ultra detailed subject and people have TONS of questions. I feel it bad form to teach the subject wrong. It is fair to say that misconceptions deserve to be corrected, and no one has taken a ball Bat and forced the issue, But a good many o' Surveyor has tried to share in here and many left. They left because they felt that many in here disregard the truth about this science even when they never stop asking. How long would you teach electricity and it's theories if your students flippantly made a game of it and wanted to learn only what they wanted. I can tell you what it is like to advise a superior manager that dumping 40 ton CAT articulated haul Trucks under 13 KVA Transmission lines is a bad idea. But until you show some people, you don't win... Being overridden we did like we were told, till we killed a truck and nearly a driver when the box went up and came within 2 feet of the lines... It was later related that he had been given good advice. Heads did roll. His. Btw... It makes the prettiest Blue arc, and the loudest buzzzzuzzuzzzuuzzzzzzzing noise you ever want to hear. Baaaad JUJU. About got one of my Guys Killed. No matter about the I told you so. Can you say Pucker factor? The paperwork sucked too. Then the power utility sends a bill... An Old timer told me, if you wanna work on Tube gear, do it with one hand... Not two. I bet there are a few folks who pass this way that would challenge that advise. You and I know that you can, sure, But you may get carried away on a stretcher. Some of these people would sterilize them selves in a near field RF hazard even if you told them there was danger. Using Blab for terminology muddies the water. People who just wanna have their way want to for their own sake. Respectfully there are a good many here who really want to learn something and have fun. I see you as one of them, So as a professional an sure you see where dumbing things down so it is easy really serves fewer than it does many. How would you do it if you were involved in a situation where people could take away a better understanding of what your profession really is about? Would you let them go away misinformed? Geocaching could simply remove the incorrect things or define them better that they are, Heck let's go as far as to define them correctly and then they would be a great myth buster rather than a myth creator. What would be the point of answering a question if you didn't intend to teach what's true? The Gamer who sees a threat to their score might. If the tally is clean then there is no threat. You can learn correctly and still have fun. People ask good questions but a good bit of the explanation is spent correcting misconceptions and misunderstandings which could be avoided. It is too bad that it doesn't work that way. Rob

John, Really, most anything you say in the forum these days is an attack on me, but you are too cowardly to email me, and at this point It wouldn't matter. Your Just a troll dude. Geo, everything you just said in your post has been discussed ad nauseam here in this forum. You need only research the past in here and you will have all your answers. If you are still unclear, you should use the Ask a Geodesist email address at NGS. They love making sure you have a good answer. Your Jokes and Puns are easy to see and you are clear about it. John has a different agenda... My tail feathers are Fine Geo, I am just pointing out that John is a troll... You don't have to agree. No matter to me either way. I'm Light, feel great, even better since I just decided to deal with you John, instead of watching the steady drip of your innuendoes... I decided that it is Politically Correct to call John a Troll, rather than the harmful alternative of just letting him go on and on. A lot of people will be secretly glad to see you know how it really is in the world... you know, the real world. The world who sees you as a Troll and hopes if they don't feed you that you will stop. Oh and John, They seem to like discussing the NGS stuff over here too, but the NGS discussion is more prevalent than ever. So is reporting to NGS. Be a good steward and send them over there if it so bothers you, won't you? I'd hate to think that they are over here annoying you... Best Regards, Rob

John, Yeah I know, Another long Diatribe from Rob. The point I have been making is that despite what your dictionary claims, the dictionary is not always the basis for what is the correct usage of terminology, with in any industry. I am sure while I know nothing of Rocks and lapidary work, I could easily be in error when I refer to things. Maybe I can murder some lapidary vernacular for you sometime? The truth is that there are specific idioms that are used in any industry, and if you talk about it with others within the industry, you learn the terminologies. I work in the industry. Have for over 20 years. Many people here seem to want to be correct in the things they know, some do not. Over the last few years there has been a number of Surveyor types who have chimed in here to help you all learn. Question after question we help answer, yet for the most part much of what is offered in answer is ignored or refuted in such a way that says to the Surveyor, "oh, well that's nice, but I don't care. That seems like too much bother. My way is easier I'll do it my way." So John, Since NGS is the originator of all Vertical and Horizontal control going back (EMPHASIS 200 YEARS) and they are the authority, the establishment of any authority on the matter, Have a nice day. My authority can beat up your authority. Perhaps you understand if I say it like that, eh? Ever wonder why so many stop bothering to help? There is a clue for ya. Many of the Surveyors who quit in here, quit because no one really want's the real answers. And yes, we in the survey industry have discussed this amongst ourselves. That is not how the real world works. In the real world John, My Buddies and I would give to you the crap jobs and we would shun and scorn you till you quit. We would scowl at you over the rims of our sunglasses and leave you to eat your lunch all by your self. Eventually, if you were too slow to move on, I'd lay you off at the end of an arduous day. All that based on how you have acted in here! Get it? That's the real world in the trades Bro. I don't care how you like me now John, It hasn't mattered for months. :-) I just want you to know I don't have to resort to innuendo, as I am not afraid to say the things I think when it is appropriate to do so. Why not email you? Why? You are a Troll in here, so what good what that do? Beyond that John, You have helped my pursuit of becoming a better communicator during fierce conversations, so I do get at least something from sparring with you. Thanks Buddy! In an earlier discussion this year, some of you seemed to want to dismiss the NAD 83 Datum on account of... because. I guess because WGS 84 is easier! <snort!> heheheh! We in the industry chuckle at this notion because we know you cannot separate this. If you choose not to follow, then we can't make you, but we can't help you either. Sorry, but it is a pragmatic science folks. Dave D is the Chief Geodetic Surveyor at NGS. His answer to any Geodetic question is considered an answer from on high in my industry. He answered that question as did I, as did a Geodesist that Casey brought to the scene and some of you refuted our answers for the way it is. Well, ok fine. The the earth is flat then, don't worry about it. John, While it would be laughable to take exception with anything you say, as you would only choose to refute me in the face of any reason. Your dictionary isn't correct, not really. But I realize that you and others like you, do not wish to be correct. It is all about playing by your own rules at any cost. But you do enjoy thinking you are popular, what with all the self congratulation and overbearing back patting... Oh except for when you are unhappy with a situation where you then resort to making backhanded comments which you won't address directly when confronted with them. For you to say anything, is rendered pretty irrelevant, as for the most part, the only stance you take on any issue is the rebel or devil's advocate. Whatever would make things easiest for you. In either case, you hardly lift a finger, so, so what? :-) You have no point.... I have made a direct comment John, and I was not flippant, nor am I pasting up three little green emoticons to show how sophmorish my snide remarks are. I am just saying that your opinion has no value to me, and in silence, some others share my view. I even know who some of them are. I already know I am unpopular with some here. I still sleep fine. The real world you flippantly refer to has high standards, which you don't bother acknowledging. Those standards are what makes the system, as difficult as it can be, work. If you want to pat yourself on the back for finding something that a professional who came before you did not, and then mock him or them for their failure, while at the same time refusing to lift a finger to improve the situation says a lot about you. So Uh, Whatever Dude. Go treasure hunt. It is equally silly, as a notion to think that as geocachers, others in this forum feel that any submitted data to NGS should be run through your gauntlet, first. As if someone appointed the Geocachers to make sure the public gets it right. Hell, that's good... Self appointed overseers of? Please. I think NGS has it in hand. Do them a favor and quit making silly policies amongst yourselves and either help them or don't. Especially when there seems to be little else many here can actually agree upon. Submit the data because you want to perform an act of community service that helps out. They are more than qualified to sort your entry out. They are experienced for 200 years at maintaining the control and did it well before there were geocachers. And when you guys want an improvement from Jeremy, stop complaining and petition Jeremy for what you want. I know of no one who ever got a promotion by whining and muttering. Most who have ever worked as managers all have had employees that come to them with complaints and problems. The ones the promote also bring possible solutions. I had suggested several times how people could work this with Jeremy. He has even dropped hints and clues, and then watched. Nothing happened. Some treasure hunters... Well it is true that what you bargain for you have a chance to get, and the benchmarkers seem to be largely ignored. Sorry but until you help yourselves, you'll have to settle. There are many things which could be done to improve the hobby, but I never see agreement. I have attempted to organize threads which could discuss this and they are there, go look, no one could agree on a thing. So the threads faded away. every one came in, My way or the highway and the rest said nothing because they saw the writing on the wall. Benchmarking as a forum sees little growth... Very few noobs contributing... But I see the forum is well read, when it isn't being mocked... I am sorry if I am doing harm here but in part I feel it needs said. I am not afraid of Leadership Management or facing hard choices. I work that action as part of my daily do. If the Benchmark hunters don't feel that and form of convention should govern them, then they do not have a right to tell NGS that they can't solicit help from the public. In this culture you have created, ideas are squashed with great resistance before they are barely discussed. Then, To make a Mockery of the Power Squadron is poor too, because at least they are looking and reporting them, in an organized way, right or wrong. Sorry Guys but there are no glass houses. Some of you know who who you are when I say thank you, you have contributed a lot. I am proud of what you did on your own. I thank you for listening and asking good questions. That's cool! As I said, They know who they are, and they know I know. As for me and the Lighten up? I am fine Really, Just saying a few things needing said, before being too PC poisons everything else. So before wading in and berating me, take it constructively, and save your breath. I really don't need a critique. I would likely not give it much credence anyway. Rob

Proof that NAD83 continues to become more accurate and needs to be regionally defined to best describe it's locality. All those tectonic plates are proving to be doing their own things. This shows CORS allocation for the specific velocities in an area. It will be a good thing.

Wow, we can almost form entire sentences with emoticons...

Yup, They seem to ONLY be stamped Bench Mark when used for vertical control. It is the time honored NGS convention. Mysterious isn't it... Only the horizontally scaled ones.... <insert Twilight Zone Music here.> Of course you could call it a geospacemanwhatchamawhooley if you ask John, He'd back you on that. He likes untraditional things because they don't conform to any of those silly time honored traditions. Besides, he's a rebel, He'll sign off on anything!

Heck John, You could Lobby for Hemi Ram too! I should think any "all about me" or otherwise self congratulatory title would be great! Rob

Yeah John, I guess that's right, even though you could not wrap your mind around the vision at the time. Oh and Yeah, Good Project for you John, if you feel up to tackling it. Lobby Jeremy for that, wouldn't you? Let me know how it turns out sometime! Rob

Yes, For enough money you can have most anything you want. It would not likely be geodetic, nor be an official NGS Marker but you can have a brass disc monumented. You could even have your own custom Marker commissioned. I doubt you would want to go full on Geodetic quality as you would not want to pay the bill and there is nothing to warrant that NGS would accept the station, But you sure could have one it you like. Just open your wallet and a Survey/Engineering firm will gladly take that money from you in exchange for your business. Phone a few and ask them what they would charge you for this. Rob

Bill, Of note, You said: "The CGS was the predecessor to the National Geodetic Survey whose data base we use here." Actually they were not a predecessor agency. It is still the same agency, only the name was changed. They are the oldest continuously operating scientifically related agency in the US Government. Also of note, when you start referring to scaled and adjusted coordinates, though I discussed it while back, It is important to note for those who may be new and uninformed, (and there is always someone who is) That you are referring to horizontal coordinates ONLY and not to Vertical. If a Station is Horizontal Control, it will always have Adjusted Horizontal coordinates, otherwise it is not of high enough quality to be in the active database, period. Many Horizontal stations will have "Scaled" Vertical data, many others will have Adjusted Vertical Data. It can be confusing to just say adjusted, because in reality the adjusted means something altogether different than the context it is used in around here. It is as misleading as calling all survey markers "Benchmarks" because that is a full on error and misnomer at the very best, to say the least. So please remember for the benefit of those who may not be as up on the drill as others that it is just safer to refer to these as either first horizontal or Vertical control, then go on to talk about the types and quality of the data after that. Just a Few thoughts from the Survey Field, Hope that helps. Rob

Geo, Regardless of Legal Matters, we are not qualified to fill your head with thoughts regarding deep and touchy subjects which are not geocaching nor benchmark hunting matters. While we do discuss the matters of various and sundry survey methods here in general ways, and specifically about the quality of markers themselves, we really are way off topic when we are talking about specific boundary surveys, and even more so when we are discussing specific boundary surveys that belong to or are somehow related to us. It is dangerous to construe anything at all from that sort of discussion based on the legal ramifications it can have. Deep and touchy subjects of the nature this has been shown to be, are not our topic here Geo, and I would not want any of us to construe anything one way or another. You prefaced this as being about your property in the first place and then admitted to it as a guessing game which is now a deep and touchy subject. We really should not plying with this sort of thing Geo. Sorry, but this is how I feel about it. PLSS Cadastral Descriptions and such is just beyond the scope here, when it starts to play into your property or mine. Thanks for understanding Geo, Rob

Geo, While I appreciate you asking the forum for their thoughts and advice, there is not a one of us here who should be advising you. Not One. You need an Attorney skilled in Legal Property Issues and a Licensed Professional Surveyor under your retainer to commission a survey for you if needed and to properly research what has been done in the past and by Whom, in order to see what dispute you can make. I would be weary of even assuming I know what Adverse Possession will truly mean in this instance. It really all is open to interpretation when based upon the historical happenstance in each instance. What has been done in the past and what is being attempted to be done now, and by whom on both parts is very much a big deal here. Please, If you have not done so already, get some local Professionals to help you with this. We are all not properly qualified nor close enough to your Locale to properly say anything about this in any way, and it truly looks like you are wrangling with what will become a legal matter in some way before you completely resolve it. Sorry, but we are not going to be helpful by telling you anything, In fact, our speculations could even stand a chance of being more incorrect for you than anything else. Good luck with this, I hope it turns out. Rob

Bicknell, You said: >It may also be the NGS would rather downgrade it to third order and continue to use the mark than make it completely worthless. *shrug* Not every mark is an A-Order triangulation station tied into 20 other marks and accurate to 0.5cm. I'm sure a surveyor would avoid a broken disk if given the choice, but if for some reason they didn't have a choice, or for instance if being within 10cm was good enough the broken disk may make a great spot. The truth is, We have a choice. And we cannot use the altered station as a choice for Bench Mark tie ins. If these stations are found in the wild to be altered, especially for vertical work, it is considered good practice to pass on them. (we cannot build a drawbridge over a critical waterway as based on by guess and by golly.) They are not downgraded in accuracy. They have zero accuracy, because we have no idea what has happened... It is not something we attempt to surmize, second guess, call good enough for government work, or grade on a curve. We don't bump them up or down, they are predetermined to be surveyed in, to a given accuracy. It is something done as per plan. The plan is to follow the plan, If the Plan is not working, go find another station and follow the plan. Accuracy is granted on the basis of a given number of observations and least squares adjustments. It is a methodology which is rigorous and adhered to. Once the station is altered from it's original accuracy, all this has to be re-accomplished, and the "order of accuracy" is now No accuracy at all. Accuracy is granted on the basis of how many concurring observations were made on the station, and in some cases such as a baseline the stations may be observed from more than one Path of leveling. Because of the alteration they will not concur with the Datasheet, and we cannot legally use them as tie in's for certified survey work. It happens, and this is why in some cases you see reset stations. That is a station to replace the damaged or missing station and it's data can be certified accurate. If we could use damaged or altered survey markers, there would never be a need to reset them. HTH Rob

M&H, Let me think out loud a little.. You Said: >We just logged a mark on this site that we're not sure how to proceed with at NGS. The PID is MO0962, designated U 344. The description places the disk on the south face of the southernmost of 4 columns in the east pier of the overpass. >The disk is now in the west face of the column, and bears the additional stamping "RESET 2000." What is there to be found where the description leads you? If nothing I would report to NGS what is there. If nothing is there then I would say that you found the location but the station is now gone. (Not found) If it would be helpful to future hunters which may not be aware of a reset, I would add that there appears to be a reset for this station, but that a Datasheet for the new station does not appear to be available at the time of this writing. ** The important thing you are saying is that you are cluing future Surveyors to the possibility of a reset with data, but that at the time you worked the area, this information was not yet available, even though the reset station was.** Unfortunately there is no way to file a found on a station which has not yet been added to the database. >The NGS database appears not to contain this information. It's not on the MO0962 sheet, and a radial search of the area does not yield a RESET at this site. >Can we say all that on a mark recovery form, or should we e-mail Deb Brown and/or Cheryl Malone? Many thanks. I bolded what I would say, but an email to Cheryl about what you found and that you did not find a datasheet for the reset available is a good idea. Feel free to ask her if she can find any data on the reset station and what it's status is. Give her as much info as you can so as to help her, help you. Rob