evenfall

I, Am having fun. To add, I am free to post where I like. The NGS forum was planned for the technical discussions but I cannot force people to use it. I just have the hope is all... Maybe it will catch on. I have made several requests of moderators to pin some threads here. One, a link to the NGS Forum, and Two, a link to the FAQ for those who are looking for unlisted Benchmark, as it is confusing to some what exactly the FAQ is and where it is. I have been working on this for oh, five months now but there has been no response. I suppose my wheel is not squeeky enough. But John, you opposed the formation of the NGS Forum, and did not get on board with the idea until it became apparent you could not prevent it. I am not sure I see you as a member of the "we" group that accomplished that. So there is no credit for you to take there. I had hoped the NGS forum would relieve you of the added Blood Pressure John. It was part of Why I advocated it because I saw this coming. Well, Some things in life are come see come saw. Like the rest, I suppose you will just have to muddle through. Rob

I am unclear if something got ripped, or is "Getting Bent!"

John, Go ahead and do it your way, but stop with the haggling and it's only a hobby thing. The bold print is nothing more than you overstating an opinion. The people talking here are the major players in this forum and they are talking about change. It is a proactive thing. They are becoming less than thrilled with the way things are, and the way it could be better, or improved is a solution they are thinking out loud about. This is a great use of the forum. Play it your way and let others play it theirs. You come out against this every time. Does it threaten you somehow? Why all the fear and resistance? I remember it when you do this well because it is usually been me leading this charge, and you directing your displeasure towards me. This time it is not me John... I am pretty absent from the thoughts here. But I am keep track. The picture has never been a rule, just a suggestion made by players to prove something really was seen. It stands in lieu of a cache owner and a log. You know what? There are a lot of people who are fine with how you play. So be fine with the way they play. It is their hobby, their game too. If they would like to have things make better sense, it is well worth discussing. Oh and Volunteers are generally unpaid for their public service. It is not all about them. Rob

I attempted that suggestion once Mitch, but I was overwhelmed by nay saying game players who feel it is just a game, and to whom score is everything. There is a divide here of people who'd like better defined rules, and some who wish there were less. Remember, Some people like less rules, as it allows for playing fast and loose. If you design it in such a way where cheating is hard an a find requires more integrity, look out. That is deeply protected hallowed ground for some here. If you like NGS style play, I'd just report at NGS. That is what I do Rob

I typically make road grader operators grade 5/8ths minus crushed rock to +/- 2/100ths of a foot accuracy, and I can quickly measure that accuracy with a simple hand level and a 25 foot lufkin tape measure. I can do it all day with a Construction Laser and a grade rod too. RTK GPS is really fast at it these days and a lot less work. I commonly expect Bulldozers and Excavators to cut grade to 1/10th of a foot, some operators are able to exceed that. It depends on the soil conditions and the operator. Keeping this sort of accuracy is important. It ensures a lot of things like Storm drainage and sewer pipes maintaining a constant flow to the plant. Sewer pipes overall maintain a 2% grade in the flowline of the pipe, otherwise the design won't work well. The water will outrun the toilet paper, and that is not what you want. What this means that if my construction plans call for me to have the subgrade for a road meet 21.58 feet, which is 21 feet 7 inches, I intend for my rock to be within 21.56 and 21.6 feet above sea level, and I can hit it right on the Money if the the Road grader is GPS equipped. or the operator is good, and some are that good. 5/8ths Minus rock is typically bigger sized than 2/100ths of a foot, but after compaction, it is real close. Close as we can typically get it. There are 8.3 hundredths of a foot in one inch, (it is actually a repeating decimal which we typically round to the nearest hundredth, not thousandth, because we can balance a hundredth anywhere without it making a difference.) so I typically expect my subgrade to be accurate to +/- 1/4 inch or less all over my job site, repeatably. I have to because when I go from Grade work which is typically measured in Hundredths of a foot to concrete which is typically measured in inches, everything has to match, and the only thing adjustable is the grade. If we cannot do it, then water will puddle everywhere. So we do, and we do it in a production like manner. Heavy equipment operators have to be that good all day every day. Concrete curbs and sidewalks are held that accurate as well. Even the ones made in the 50's. If the plans say a point on my finished grade F/G needs to be 21.59 feet, then it will be. You would love laying out super elevated curves with vertical curves set for intersections in the middle of them. Way more fun than you want, yet they happen to be everywhere, especially near freeway ramps and elevated structures. We have to hit the numbers that tight though or you will spill your coffee while driving, and we like to avoid it as much as possible. If I take a road section which is typically stationed, from the plans, scale so many hundreds of feet from a point of known survey at finished grade, and calc the rise over run from the plan, I should be able to go out to the site and measure a grade which should nearly concur with my estimate. I do it all the time as a matter of fact, and I am rarely very disappointed. The Math will fit the planned terrain, and all roads are very highly planned and documented. Z15 can back that. You can fill the back of a Suburban with road plans, easy. Geodetic Leveling is to the 1000th of a foot easily, and yes it is a repeatable measurement. We have rods that will read a thousandth, Optics that can see it, even in the 1930's and GPS today that accurate as well. I can tell you that if I were building a huge telescope for high accuracy astronomical observation, I would guess that I could be expected to hold some of the work to 1/1000 foot precision, and it would be necessary. Imagine rotating 360 degrees on a pedestal that was not absolutely level, and expecting a computer to train the scope on a particular part of the sky, exactly, and with repeated accuracy? The accuracy has to be built in on every level, starting with the soil. Bench Marks are important things! Horizontal control is too! Hope that Helps, Rob

larobley, I can Proudly Stand behind my 25 Geocaching scored "Benchmark" finds. I can stand behind the ones I didn't find too. And all the thousands I never logged here and don't intend to. It's a Career and been at it long before Geocaching. How many I have doesn't matter. My Survey Markers worked per week would eclipse my total score here, and many times in less than a day. To be sure, I have not counted all of it. Helping others become better hunters is what I most enjoy. Rob

I dunno, I don't cache, and don't foresee starting. I benchmark hunt but mostly as a professional. Since Holo's site already delineates the status of who has accomplished what in any way we want, and is based on his research which he himself did. You are basically duplicating his effort, based on his work. Having you designate yourself in charge of a top anything, while using Holo's research to accomplish it, especially since most of us will not likely remember seeing you in this forum prior to today, and you haven't been, kinda has me feeling that you are sort of stealing from Holo's work to accomplish your own. We do not know you from adam's off ox. Holograph is an established and well respected member of our forum here, and duplicating something from his site, that his site already does is being sort of disrespectful of Him as well as to the rest of us. By the way, This is Benchmark Hunting, Not Benchmark Caching, There is a difference and we like it that way. If you had gotten to know us, you might have been a bit more sensitive to everything here the whole way around. I'd like to welcome you to to the benchmark hunting forum, as I see you have been hunting, but please have some respect for Holo's work, and our aspect of the hobby. There is no prestige your website can offer or bestow upon us which we have not already earned from his. Rob

I have to chuckle with you here... as a for instance, I have dug them up under 1 foot of decomposed leaves and topsoil in the middle of blackberry bushes, and that is just one time. I work in the survey field and hunting these is often part of the job. I have looked for thousands of survey markers and continue to do so all the time. I could go on, but you know Let me just say that for many, a challenge like you had is sort of what many here secretly hope for. That is part of the fun of it, and we hope that you likes it too. Good Luck! Rob

Heck, It might be too much work to pin a thread at the top of this forum directing an answer to why things are not in the database, and a link to the FAQ. Instead, we answer this question 3 times a week on average. Sure would be nice though. Rob

Bravo Mitch, Bravo! And thanks, to both you and Jerry! Rob

Foxtrot, Thanks for the rest of the story. It is true that a lot of bench Mark Base Lines were monumented along railroad lines, as in that time, as an infrastructure, it was the main way. Most of the major highways in the country had not been situated or developed yet. Fast forward to today, and we have a very different world than we had in those simpler times. The railroads veiw people a lot differently and there are a lot more trains on arguably less tracks. Our aim is to try and nudge people in the direction of being safe. Even in the Survey Biz, we often overlook the railroad benchmarks anymore because it is literally an act of congress just to get permission to gain access, and then we have to be escorted by a rail employee with a radio for our safety. They have to enact slow orders where we are working... Depending on the scope of the work we may even have to be safety trained by the railroad so they certify we are aware of the dangers. You know, the whole deal, so they make it hard... I can't blame them as it adds cost to their operations too. So for the most part, I caution people against even going there... It is just a lot of bother which isn't fun, especially when you are jacked up. Stay Safe! Rob

Last time I checked, this was still a free Country, sort of. I suppose we will just have to learn to get along. With or without an SUV. Since there will always be no end to this discussion, as there are so many valid points of view, being little different from Ford vs Chevy, Lets drop the SUV subject, and concentrate on Artman's concern about how the price of fuel will impact the game playing. If we have said all there is to say about that, then let's allow this to float away, since it is sort of off topic. Rob

Team Neos, The way I understand the purpose of this sticker is that people who want to participate in Waymarking, Buy these stickers and then they put these stickers on the items out in the environment that they want people to find on their hunts. The sticker is placed to show that the item it is stuck on is indeed a Waymarking Game piece. This is a difference from a sticker which is meant to put on your car or a cache. These are meant to be stuck on the item to be the item to be found in a Waymarking hunt. Over time, people can see how this could become cumulative. Some will get removed, Waymarkers upon realizing this, will replace them over and over... Bad PR. Some people out there will not enjoy this. As a for instance, there is a company called 1-800 Got Junk?. They once climbed a telephone pole in front of my house and nailed their sign where every time I looked out my living room window, it was prominent in the dead middle of my view. I called and had it removed. Six months later they had put it up again. Yes I was way less than pleased the second time. They put these high enough so as a pole climb is necessary. It is easy to see how we will see these stuck to all kinds of infrastructure. You know, Bus stops and Street signs, Light poles and private property of various forms. My own feeling is, I would rather not see these stickers everywhere, eventually. I know I will see them and I have a strong sense that city managers and other forms of civil leadership will not enjoy seeing them plastered over things either. They will consider it defacement, and graffiti, and it will be something they will spend money to clean up. It isn't good PR, no matter how well any game is organized. Some people will take it too far. There are a lot of things that could be done to develop the Benchmark Hunt, even things that could help generate revenue. But Benchmark Hunting takes the Back Burner. I hope folks here see this for what is means. A Busier Geocaching will have even less time to work on the Bench Mark Game which it doesn't work on already. It seems a shame when this game leaves no trace of itself in the environment that is not already there, unless an unconscientious hunter leaves a mess. No Abandon Cache to become Trash... My .02, Rob

I can see this sticker as becoming a bain to Geocaching... I am sure Geocaching will "get it" as soon as Municipalities begin sending them the bills or worse for advocating for and enabling the defacement of road signs, buildings. Spendy bills too! Some Municipalities and other Civil authorities are already at issue with Geocaching as it is... Not a great idea. Rob

twm3, Based on my career in the Survey field, Yup. More than an opinion, it is an informed observation based over years of experience. I cant say I have ever seen a disc monumentation which was purposefully oriented to face any specific way. I also say that, based on training and knowledge of NGS and other surveying methodologies. I have never read anywhere that advised the placement and orientation of the disc be oriented to face any specific way. Those are just place markers. The instruments we use determine the angles and directions from place to place. Hope that helps. Rob

I will second Mike's Tarnished Brass comments. There are a number in the Seattle area, Vintage 1973 than look just as tarnished. Rob

Hi twm-3, As John said, that symbol is the location where the measurement is taken. There have been varying schemes used for discs down through the last century and there have been a number of agencies who use them. As a rule of thumb, If the disc was placed in the ground by an agency which has had two names; US Coast & Geodetic Survey, or National Geodetic Survey, then there were a few basic designs for the center of the disc. It is important to note that the agency who's database we use to help us find these survey marks with belongs to the National Geodetic Survey. I will refer you both of these as the NGS from here on. First the Bench Mark. Now on the disc it self it will have the words, Bench Mark. 2 words, not one like we use commonly here at geocaching, and it will mean to a geodesist or a surveyor that this disc represents a type of survey data which originally represented elevations, or what we call vertical control. It usually will have a Plus + or a cross hatch with the vertical line is shorter than the horizontal one. On the older discs the horizontal line is extended to the edges of the disc. On a Bench Mark, a survey instrument is physically rested on the disc to take the measurement and always taken from the center of the disc. There are variations on the theme of designs of course but this + is the symbol most frequently used for Bench Marks, or vertical control. On Horizontal Control, sometimes we will see the words "Triangulation Station" on the older stations, and the words "Horizontal Control Mark" on the newer ones. On these, if they were originally meant to be for horizontal control as a primary purpose there was a Triangle with a Dot in the middle of them as a symbol, and this was meant to signify the location from where the survey data was measured, however, on these stations, we usually do not have to touch the Horizontal Control. The triangle and dot are targets for instrument to be centered over. There were a couple other designs used by the NGS over the years for Magnetic and Gravity stations and they used different symbols than the triangle, but they were considered horizontal control. Probably the third most common disc you will see is the USGS Bench Mark... The USGS did their design a bit different than the NGS did. It is a Triangle with a + inside it and yes, it its used for both Horizontal and Vertical survey work. There are many other kinds of discs placed by many agencies, but most are similar to these designs and for the most part, the center of the disc is the place where the data is significant. As to the orientation of the disc? No, I have never known of any particular alignment, and of the I don't know how many I have used in my career, I can see no pattern, nor remember one. Most commonly it seems to me, most were oriented facing the direction that one would be considered most likely to approach it, and that isn't always true either. Noting the direction the mark is oriented in your field notes is not required. Just for familiarity's sake, here is a link to a look at some of the discs you will encounter in the field. http://www.dustyjacket.com/benchmarks.html Enjoy and hope that helps! Rob

The Google Earth site has some updated images of Katrina damage, from NOAA available now. Worth looking at. Rob

Neo Geo, For information on the Mother of all Bench Marks, Read here: http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/PUBS_LIB/NAVD88/navd88report.htm In that you will find information about a Bench Mark located in Quebec at Father Point/Rimowski which is considered the primary Bench mark for the NAVD 88 Vertical Datum. Triangulation Stations do not currently have a Mother of all stations in the NAD 83 Datum, however, there was a mother of all triangulation during the NAD 27 called Meades Ranch Reset: http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/ds_mark.prl?PidBox=KG0640 That will give you a little background on some stations which are and were considered the the reference standards for their respective Datum The NAD 83 Datum is an Earth centered Datum and does not use a Mother Station. The old NGVD 29 Vertical Datum did not use a single Mother station either, instead that Datum used 26 stations as their "mother"... Worth learning about... Enjoy! Rob

Well Matt, This much is true. You can chuckle every time you see a monster SUV filling up. They have big tanks and the price of the status symbol cuts deep. Worse than people who could afford to buy such a vehicle and drive it, (perhaps the soccer mom who wants a safe vehicle for her family,) are the people who design it to be as inefficient as it is, and the people who have no problem raising the price of gas. Does anyone ever really know the truth behind the price of Gas? Now that IS a nice Conspiracy. But please remember that most people are more sensible and the up and rising price of gas is nothing less that the corporate taking of America. When the political will becomes what it should have been a long time ago, perhaps we can begin to take back a few things that should be ours. The things we loved about America, are something we can retain, if refuse to allow them to be taken. All it takes is resolve. Let's hope we begin to see the resolve. And Remember, If you haven't looked in on some of your marks in 2-3 years, there is no harm in a fresh visit, and you can file that report as well. Maybe that will save you some Gas. Good Luck in the coming times, Rob

Fwiw, I just posted what I did because because I felt it was worth saying. I don't post anywhere else. My friends are here. I don't geocache, so to the geocacher's, I'd add little value. I said it here for the people who read only here. That was what I was thinking. You know, just to say to the Benchmark Hunters, keep those folks in harm's way in your thoughts. That's all. To be honest, the rules, and the closing of my thread of kindness does seem a bit, well, curious, amongst other things. Not My Dog. Rob

Sorry for the off topic post. I would just like to remind everyone to try and help out our neighbors in the wake of the devastation hurricane Katrina has caused in any way they can. If nothing else, the Red Cross can always use a donation. Thanks, Rob Edit: Apparently there is a post regarding this disaster is already on another forum here at Groundspeak.com. The Moderators feel it best if this issue be kept to just this one thread, and I can understand their feelings on this. If you feel you would like to comment or help, please feel free to seek that thread out, and contribute there. This thread is closed. Best Regards, Rob

I concur with Matt and Mike. If you are faced with something describing an extended centerline, it cannot know what future plans are or may be. It always assumes; Using the centerline which already exists, continue or extend it along the path it has already been traveling. As long as you keep that in mind, you should be fine for most tasks. There can be oddities, but it is easier to work solutions for those on a case by case basis. Rob

Seven, You did add Value, and often do. It does seem that The Old Farts, BlackDog and I seem to be having a tough go at it though... Hopefully soon they will drop the innuendoes and just help out. The deer in the headlights look is all well and fine, but at the end of the day, I know that what I am driving at is understood by them, and if not, we can repeat the lesson until it is. What I do isn't about me, and I have known this all along. I am not all that competitive with you guys, but I do enjoy helping out and leading people to easier fun and high quality game play. I like seeing it be fun for all and I have been happy about the point that this forum runs a bit smother than many others. I hope we can maintain the respect we have for one another so it continues as it has for the most part. R_C, you make a good point. If the paper helps you think it through, the paper may be a good choice. I keep my field notes for the hunt on the back of my Datasheet. The datasheet is the most complete document I can get for help. Field notes, written in a notebook are a part of my stock in trade anyway, but I do not advocate that people should or should not do this, but rather if paperless hunting makes you happier then fine. It is my opinion that the NGS datasheet in hand helps give a hunter a bit of legitimacy if questioned in the field. Without it may be a tougher road to travel depending on who's asking. It is just my experience. In any case, it is an individual choice and to each their own. Rob

Oh Shirley, It all comes down to the way you say it... See the Oh at the head end of your name there? Does it seem to imply that I am feeling something more than just speaking to you would? Since I am mirroring you, perhaps you see, we can mean a lot of things we barely say, yet it isn't necessarry. Some things are better to think and not say. I was not taking away from paperless benchmarking either. I agree wholeheartedly that it is a viable alternative, but this is the world we live in, and I felt the way you said what you said was Cutting R_C off at the knees. If we really want things to go back to the usual sense of decorum around here, we need to practice treating people with a basic level of respect. If we disagree, that is fine, but we can do so in a way that still respects other peoples opinions and points of view. I realize also that we seem to have a bit of negative history between us and I have a strong sense that his quote of my previous advice may have helped to motivate you to write what you did, as it is not your usual comeback. I am only interested in helping people here. They take what they need and leave the rest. Sure I make my living this way but I am not charging for what I have learned, and some of it was learned the hard way. Experience is a teacher. So, you and John have your methods and I mine, the rest of these nice folks can adapt what works for them. But let's try keeping the tearing down of one another to a minimum. You don't have to like me or respect me and that would be fine, but I will expect that your communications to me and about me be respectful towards me and others here in this public forum. As you have seen in the recent past, I am more than happy to point this out when I feel it necessary and I will continue to. You were reasonably well spoken in this last comment. However, what I am saying would include addressing me as Rob or evenfall, as the belittling and patronizing innuendoes towards people's names are not necessary either, no matter how cute and grandmother like they may seem to you. Thanks, Rob