evenfall

Thanks for you offer Joe, I had talked to Dave about the old CD's once and he did mention as you have that the internet will have freshest data. I imagine that since it has been a few years since you guys created CD's that the data could be a bit dated? He seemed to frown on the CD idea when I asked him. He seemed to like the fresh data model better and I can't say I blame him. Anyway, the hope is that eventually the geocaching website can access the NGS database to compile and parse data for it's web pages so that the freshest data can be used when generating the web page in an end user's browser. At least that is what we are kicking around anyhow. Thanks! Rob

Buck, FYI, Send your photos to deb.brown@noaa.gov via email. Be sure to include the PID in the Subject line with the word photos next to it. They would like one close up of the station and one area photo with the station positioned as clearly as possible. It is helpful to add the direction you were facing when you took the area photo. Photos should be resized to 72 dpi and around 4x6 inches in dimension, this will assure the file size is under 100k each. It helps them tremendously if you can provide this service. I know it can be a pain, but they are working on a better system. For now, we can contribute these way. Photos are slowly being added to PID's at NGS all the time, Look for clickable links to photos right on the datasheet. As for small print showing up in the photo, try Manual mode on your Cam. Push the ISO rating up a bit quicker and shut the flash off. This will help you hand hold the shot for faster shutter speeds in low light. and the lack of flash may help by not washing out the detail. Sometimes zooming in for close ups is more workable than being close up too. In Lieu of everything else you can add the details by writing on the photo with a photo editing program. Art, Macro rocks doesn't it? :-) Enjoy, Rob

Harry, <Smiling Widely> You feel this way, because you _are_ living in a police state. Simply convince as many Voters as you can that many of these clamp downs on the civil rights of Americans are silly and unnecessary restrictions that are saddling and burdening the freedoms of taxpayers, so that they will see the need to vote the current crop of politicians who believe all this restriction is necessary, out of office. The new ones will be likely to reinstate many of the freedoms we once enjoyed. It is just a hunch I have :-) Until then, The best defense we have in the face of Homeland Security interrogations is a REAL Paper copy of the NGS Datasheet in our hand while hunting. For added points, a few recoveries in the NGS Database with your initials by them as corroboratable proof that you do what you say you do can be helpful. Your initials in that database will still be there in 200 years from now. Proof you did what you did does not come much more everlasting than that. It will out live us by lifetimes. Electronic Benchmark hunters please note. I am not down on your gig here, but your e-file is not going to carry the weight with authorities, that the printed piece of paper will, so think about that if you plan on hunting near sensitive areas, ok? Rob

Whoops!!! Belay that. BDT, While it is true that you are in the DC area and you show 10 degrees off true, Buck is in Albuquerque NM which is also 10 degrees off true, BUT! ( Big But! ) You are 10 degrees East of true and Buck is 10 degrees West. There is 20 degrees of Magnetic Declination between both of you comparatively. Technically not the same as here. You guys may already know this, but there are some people who will not, in fact they will not know where the "here" referred to is, and there is danger in people taking info off the cuff and attempting to orienteer with it. 10 degrees difference over 100 feet of distance will take you to two different spots, and with each hundred feet those two places will get further and further apart. A person using a compass can get lost but good without using the proper declination for the locale they are in! This site: http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/seg/geomag/jsp/Declination.jsp Will help you properly set your Compass to the proper declination to any Lat/Lon in the country. If you don't know, use the Zip code nearest to the location you need and it will center Declination on the coordinates for the post office. We have seen many occasions where the RM's have been a tough find while trying to be as accurate as can be, 10 degrees can play with your head big time, you bet! All the best, Rob

Hey Art, Perhaps a Quick email to NGS will bring an answer which will explain as to why they truncated the listing. In the big picture it probably isn't much of an issue but it would satisfy the question with an answer. Rob

Um, Buck, You have just been Had bro... These stations are now a brass discs on her desk, and she lampooned you too boot. 4LF is trolling for benchmark hunters and she "caught" you. I've got your back. No worries. :-) Rob PS 4LF, They are only loggable if they are still in the ground, you may want to share that with all your buddies who have been having fun with your souvenir. You got a couple of Not Founds there. You are the last legit finder of one and you can only log a destroyed on the other. No one else can ever log a real find on them any more. They are Dead Benchmarks now.

Hey All, It is as I have mentioned in the Past. NGS really does not like destroying Brass disc monuments. They strongly avoid doing this in most cases. The Criteria is a bit different for Horizontal Survey as opposed to vertical survey but they are still very strict. If you are dealing with one, you gotta have proof it is torn out pretty much Concrete and all. You can show the concrete Column uprooted with a Disc in the end, you have a destroyed. They really prefer to call things poor or not found and that is ok too. These monuments are about the Data ascribed to them more than they are about the monument themselves if that helps. Does that make sense? Landmarks are easy. Prove it is gone with a simple photo proving the landmark is not located at the position that is on the datasheet, and you have a deal. Rob

Bos, NGS Has already placed the up to today's date fresh Datasheets in the public domain. You can download 100 counties or 1 station. No Matter. It is an unlocked door. I advocate that Geocaching get their data from NGS fresh every page. Yup. It makes the best sense. It is the best way to go. Once this is set up, Geocaching's data is as fresh as NGS from here on out. As things are Geocaching's data will only get older and more out of date. What could be better? Only the Queried Stations would ever create draw on bandwidth. Jeremy likely knows how much bandwidth is being used creating Benchmark pages via PID query per day on his site and from his databased information. Maybe someone should email Jeremy and ask what his site Stats are for this is? Anyhow, Great Idea Bos. I second the motion. It is a very doable model. Rob

cheryl.malone@noaa.gov is the correct address. She is pretty busy and does not read this forum, though she has registered, but that it the correct email address should you have something for her. Should you know a name but need contact info for someone at NGS, this will help as well: http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/INFO/newphone.html Consider the thread edited. Hope that helps, Rob

BDT, I'll bite. Sounds good. I'll take the second suggestion verbatim. The First I'd rephrase as "Geocaching can query the NGS database for fresh Benchmark Web Page Data. Should they recode to do this? " The Benchmark webpage could simply be coded to query the NGS website just as we do for the data needed to parse and assemble its webpage in anyone's browser. The Web browser simply follows directions. It is basic Web design for use with databases. Today's Latest data every single query on Geocaching from here on out. What say you? Rob

beejay&esskay, I Mean nothing bad towards you by saying this, but I fear you are already suffering from the Confusion I was speaking of. Not to worry, You'll be fine. Really! :-) Carry on! Rob

Bicknell, That kind of thing is cool but it is a very high end bit of scripting to pull off. It is not likely to happen because it is way too heavily scripted and most coders will not take the time, Besides it is likely not going to be compatible with all Browsers either. I have a friend who is a pretty good web designer and thing like this just give him fits. Will geocaching want something that high maintenance running on their site? Good question. Based on what I have seen happen, I would doubt it. They have a lot of fish to fry. But who knows? There is a bigger bummer to that sort of thing though, It kills any chance of allowing people to do the critical thinking for themselves. Critical thinking skills are a good thing. Rob

Zappy, Basically put, it means that NGS could not find it in 1972. That does not mean it cannot be found ever in some cases and it does not mean that it is destroyed, But in each case that could also be true. If you found it in 2005 and they could not in 1972, well very good then. That can happen. There are two kinds of criteria going on here. Geocaching allows you to file a destroyed. NGS does not allow anyone but them selves to have that capability. If you are reporting to them and you think something is Destroyed, they will likely not destroy it because they depend on an empirical burden of truth. A tough customer indeed. My personal druthers would be to make the Geocaching criteria the same as the NGS criteria so as to remove some confusion but I have my doubts on that. But if you like, you can practice the NGS method and consider all that you do not Find as a Not Found rather than a destroyed until you become more comfortable with the process. Good luck, Rob

Zappy, You are getting the Gist of it, yes. But this only holds true if you sure really sure it must be destroyed instead of just not findable. There is a difference but for logging at geocaching you'll be ok with that. If you get a chance, have a look at the FAQ, Here: http://www.geocaching.com/mark/ Rob

Klemmer, Sorry, the low down is as you know: DX2357_MARKER: DD = SURVEY DISK DX2357_SETTING: 30 = SET IN A LIGHT STRUCTURE DX2357_SP_SET: CATCH BASIN DX2357_STAMPING: LINE-405 2F-12-69 The Light structure was a Catch Basin. It is hard to say what this is and other surveyors may have wondered too. If there was data in someone's records that could be another story. As the original hunter said, that entire area was dozed in 1982 to make way for new development, and that was when this benchmark likely met it's fate. Good hunting though :-) Rob

StripeMark, Before you write to Deb, if you were thinking to, wait one. The right hand knows more about what the left hand is doing than you might think. The original setting has gone missing for what ever reason and has been since replaced for whatever reason by a reset mark. This has been officially done. NGS and their Surveyors or some Surveyors are working on this in some way or other. You may file a not found on the original. NGS will not allow you to ask that it destroyed because you have no physical evidence. They will not destroy Station Mark disc monuments just because they are not there. You can include in you notes what you think has happened. In that the Station Mark reset appears to have been reset in the same location as the original. The Reset Data is not yet in the Database because the new data has not been finished. There may be more survey work to do or all the work that must be done to properly include this station in the network is in progress. If it has no PID yet, that is what is going on. You and I will get one when it gets one. If you like, you could offer to send photos to Deb, but with the possibility of no PID as yet to assign it to she may or may not know what she will file it under. Maybe she will have a PID for the station in house, but it has not been released to the public yet. Since you and I have no new PID, a recovery cannot yet be filed. Just keep an eye open for when you can. Hope that Helps, Rob

kc2ixe, You said, "KU3410 and KU3411 - It looks like both these domes have been restored/repainted. For instance - spire on KU3411 does NOT seem to be broken off - Don't know WHAT to call the status on these" It has been common practice to call thing that seem to have been altered POOR with a note that the original item had been recovered as damaged previously but nor appears to have been repaired. There is no proof that this can be determine to be the original item intersected so intersect with caution. This way you call attention to the alteration and a future Surveyor can determine if the location will work adequately for their purposes or not. In some cases it may, and in others it may not, depending on what they want to accomplish. Another alternative is to request to Deb Brown that the alterations you found cannot confirm it is the original item and ask if she would like to Destroy it. She may also just recommend Poor with a note as I have. I suppose it comes down to whether you want to go with my advice or ask Deb. As to the Wild life areas, yes, I would concur with a not found and a not as to what you did find there. Many beach areas like this are frowned upon for digging and or altering in declared sensitive areas. Nice Work! Rob

Bill, A Reference mark dislodged from it's original location as a result of farming or construction does not necessarily destroy anything. You are not going to put it back where it was and the farmer is not likely to want you to either. It is likely the Station Mark is still in place and fine. A simple recovery note to NGS stating that the RM was found dislodged from it's original location, but that the Station Mark is fine will suffice. This sort of thing happens and is considered acceptable attrition. This was not Vandalism, just happenstance. The Farmer was even willing to show that it had happened. Rob

Paul, I have not had time to look over the Datasheet as yet. No Matter, You have this well in hand. Here are some thoughts on how I'd approach it. Make a waypoint of the Geodetic coordinates in your GPS. It should walk you within 5-10 feet of the former location. Go ahead and test this and just round the coordinates to the appropriate size for the GPS. There have to be some easy local stations you can test on. If you ate on map mode with the track on, turn your resolution up to the Highest close up you can and watch where the numbers click over. This will help you define the area that the station will have originally been in. Bill 93 and I believe BDT will advocate that you will see higher accuracy in DDD.DD.DD Mode so once you load the waypoint try it both ways and see. It should get you close but in any case, feel free to test the theory for yourself in your area and on your GPS. Let us know what your testing reveals to you if you would. Thanks and good luck, Rob.

Sorry, Only Surveyors who work on projects sanctioned by the NGS are able to submit that kind of data. It is a more technical procedure than they would ask of a public volunteer. If you are interested in doing some voluntary things that will help the NGS out, There are ways for you to do this. The last three Paragraphs of the FAQ page help outline what geocachers can do to contribute and if you have any questions, feel free to ask us here in the forum. Good luck Benchmark Hunting :-) Rob

Here is a little more from the beginning of the FAQ Page: What is a benchmark? Geodetic control points are permanently affixed objects at various locations all over the United States to enable land surveying, civil engineering and mapping to be done efficiently. These objects are usually metal disks, but can be any other object that serves as a control point. There are two general types of these control points: One type, the vertical control point, is for precisely establishing the elevation at that point. This type of control point is usually, but not always, a small brass or aluminum disk, concrete post, iron pin, or bolt, (among other things), that is permanently attached to a stable foundation. The other general type of control point is for horizontal control. There are several names for horizontal control points - triangulation stations, traverse stations, trilateration stations, GPS stations, and intersection stations, depending on which kind of horizontal control system was used in establishing them and the amount of precision they represent. This type of control point can be a small brass or aluminum disk, concrete post, iron pin, or bolt, (similar to the vertical control points) but also radio towers, water towers, church spires and mountain tops or any other type of object that can be identified from a distance. In the surveying profession, the term benchmark is applied only to the vertical control type, but for sake of discussion on the Geocaching website, both vertical and horizontal control points are commonly referred to as benchmarks. These markers are part of the geodetic control network created and maintained by the National Geodetic Survey (NGS). The NGS maintains a database of these locations. In the database, each geodetic control marker has a PID (Permanent IDentifier) number, and a datasheet of information about it. Although much of the descriptive (how to find it) data is outdated, the surviving markers remain vitally important to the conduct of our nation's commerce. And a bit from the end of the FAQ: I have questions about benchmarks, datums, Geodetic Survey Markers, etc. The good folks at the NGS have done an excellent job with their Frequently Asked Questions Page. Check it out! The NGS also provides links to a large number of interesting articles on its on-line publications page. If you want to know all about the NGS database, check out its specifications section. The NGS has a fascinating page on the history of the NGS and its surveying. You can use the NGS search engines for finding control point datasheets (click on "Datasheets"). The NGS sample data sheet page is an excellent guidance for reading the datasheets. Remember to visit those links, as they all are pretty good! Hope that helps! Rob

BDT, Your point too is well taken. The idea is that with a form that inputs two buttons, someone with no technical aptitude can still contribute without harming the quality. They either found it or didn't. In fact they would not likely bother logging unless they did find it. If all they could say is found it then at least we would have an update and know that a fresh chance for a real recovery is possible. Through that portal only one recovery per year would set a clock making all other attempts unacknowledged and keep things from flooding the datasheet. No initial, no need to keep statistics beyond overall totaling. If they really wanna have credit then they learn the craft. To be honest, those of you who hunt these here are pretty dadgum professional and careful about your work. Coming from me I am sure it doesn't mean much to you all, but I am proud of the care you all take when you put the effort into this work. I am thankful for the quality of your work, And I enjoy taking the time to help you all out with the best answers I can offer you. That is just my opinion, I just work in the field. But, You all really are in a class of Semi Pro Mark duster capacity. I am not being slight by saying semi pro either, the major difference being that of a paid position. You all try do a good job and when you are not sure of yourselves you are not afraid to ask. I have guys who work for me I wish would take as much care or be as conscientious. So take a bow. Just let me come around to your side of the table and ask. What would be the harm if the general untrained public could simply just say Found it? We could check if later it were in our locality, or a Pro could too, But the point is that it bumps up the freshness of recent witness. A hiker may find something where it would be unlikely that many of us will ever venture, but they are there and they saw it, maybe even photographed it. There is value in that contribution even if it is small, and if it inspires them to grow, then maybe we will see them here. Basically BDT, I am proposing a simple system with little to fix. You can find it once a year or you cannot report it. The agency code would be one as such where we know it cam in through that particular portal and that there can be little more known. Pretty simple. A photo upload could be added to that page but it would likely be a step beyond the scope of that page. We are looking for K.I.S.S. Then if the participation goes up because it is simple and not technical nor time consuming. As a Side thought, We could comb the Geocaching Database for founds with photos as proof. As we comparatively prove that it was really found, especially if the finder is not known we could verify the photo and submit a recovery based on Geocaching Data. Again all we could verify is that the disc was found or not. Compare the Data with the Photo and say found. That is it. But as we know, that is a lot of work. It has been proposed before though. The system I am thinking of would allow the public to report or not with little room for error. There would be little harm if you can only make a found report once a year. Have I repeated what I really mean enough here? I hope I am not Misconstrue. I will say again, if we do nothing or propose nothing then we will have what we have, Is that what you want? Any thoughts? Rob

Artman, Discussion is a good thing. If you were to get a new ca you would want a say in the Type color and payments. If you like the car you have you can always pass, if you would like something better, then you should speak up. I have watched this forum grumble over the want for better things so let's hammer out what that could be and ask for it. As I outlined there would be no Narrative on that Page. Found, Not found. Simple easy, Period. NGS wants recoveries. They are prepared to deal with it but they would like more recoveries. The usual page we have now would also exist for the agencies who also recover. The more experiencer recoverer would likely want to use that. I think we should let NGS deal with their Survey Marks the way they want. They want the public to help. It is not up to you or I to screen that, Nor are we in a position to appoint ourselves as Overseers. If you like we can do nothing and things will continue to be as they are, but we will have no place to grumble if that does not appease us. A good many did not want the forum we are posting in either, but it has not hurt a thing. Progress is not always bad. Everyone here had to learn too. Rob

Paul, That is too Funny! Who would have thought? Wow. Can you read the Headline? "Man in suit calls on Survey Marker after 30 plus years." Are you going back for it? Rob

Paul, But you did not say anything about your favorite Death Metal Band? :-D It is just as well. That would have been screened. We have to try to get it right, but something blatantly inappropriate like Found this one picnicking with the kids, though friendly won't get added to a Datasheet. :-) Rob