random_incoherencies

They are the same, with a coin or trackable you go to a cache, get the tracking #, go online and write a log on the Groundspeak website. Sandy did not express that this was a final decision and that NO opinions regarding the matter would be taken into consideration, this is what I am questioning. Well apparently They ARE NOT THE SAME, Geocoins are personal property - and the rules regarding geocaches do not apply to trackables. Just cause this decision did not go your way, does not mean it isn't final. Seems final to me.

So are you saying that having this discussion is useless, because GS is not willing to see that there may be an issue worth looking into here? We understand that the owner of a coin controls the coins mission and the coin page, but what is up for discussion is whether or not they should have the ability to delete accurate and honest logs of discovery "just because", whether they are the first owner of the coin or the 10th. I guess since we also control our cache pages, we should just start to delete true and honest logs "just because". We have had coin logs deleted as well, but never said anything about it.....but after reading this, it looks like it is becoming more commonplace than we originally thought. The current owner can delete previous logs, yes. It is not behavior that we encourage, but it is the coin owner's property. It is their decision. Groundspeak will not be forcing coin owners to retain previous logs if that is the coin owners choice. Hi Sandy, Can you please clarify, as by what you have said above it sounds like Groundspeak have decided that the Status Quo is to remain and that the concerns being aired here are going to be ignored. I sincerely hope I am wrong. (That, by your wording, Groundspeak are not going to look at the guidelines/rulea around this) ETA - as thebruce0 commented, your statement sounds like a final word on the matter. If this was not the intention of your post, can I suggest you very quickly edit it before it alone causes this thread to spiral out of control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't what you want clarified, the statement 'Groundspeak will not be forcing coin owners to retain previous logs if that is the coin owners choice' seems pretty clear to me. And I for one agree with it. It needs to be clarified because if that is the stance GS is going to take on coins and trackables, then it should be the same on caches. All items fall under the umbrella of the GEOCACHING game. GS should not have different sets of guidelines for items which can be logged through their website, be it a cache, TB or coin. We own our caches too and GS does not express the same "hands off" approach to those logs. So they are contradicting themselves. Sandy also needs to address her response which indicates that GS is basically going to ignore our inquiries, suggestions and questions regarding the matter at hand. With a Geocache you have to go to the site and write on a log in the cache. Then submit your log on-line. There is no such thing with a coin. They are NOT the same.... They are not ignoring your inquiries, it sounds to me that they made a decision..

So are you saying that having this discussion is useless, because GS is not willing to see that there may be an issue worth looking into here? We understand that the owner of a coin controls the coins mission and the coin page, but what is up for discussion is whether or not they should have the ability to delete accurate and honest logs of discovery "just because", whether they are the first owner of the coin or the 10th. I guess since we also control our cache pages, we should just start to delete true and honest logs "just because". We have had coin logs deleted as well, but never said anything about it.....but after reading this, it looks like it is becoming more commonplace than we originally thought. The current owner can delete previous logs, yes. It is not behavior that we encourage, but it is the coin owner's property. It is their decision. Groundspeak will not be forcing coin owners to retain previous logs if that is the coin owners choice. Hi Sandy, Can you please clarify, as by what you have said above it sounds like Groundspeak have decided that the Status Quo is to remain and that the concerns being aired here are going to be ignored. I sincerely hope I am wrong. (That, by your wording, Groundspeak are not going to look at the guidelines/rulea around this) ETA - as thebruce0 commented, your statement sounds like a final word on the matter. If this was not the intention of your post, can I suggest you very quickly edit it before it alone causes this thread to spiral out of control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't what you want clarified, the statement 'Groundspeak will not be forcing coin owners to retain previous logs if that is the coin owners choice' seems pretty clear to me. And I for one agree with it.

Nobody ever said that geocoin logs and cache logs were the same. They are not the same.

This is a strawman argument, it does not make sense. I'm not sure how it doesn't make sense. I'm saying if gs will set some rules then it will cut down on arguments in the future All of the rules we have come about because someone did something someone else didn't like So why not stop it before it gets out of hand Precisely!! randomincoherencies - on one hand you say that it makes no sense (which, IMO, it makes perfect sense and sounds very logical), but on the other you don't want rules to clarify the situation. You can't have it both way - you either remain with confusion and differing views (and essentailly different ways of playing the gmae) OR have rules so that everyone plays the game the same game way. What I mean is - this quote 'What if in a year everyone thinks you can delete all logs' Why would anyone do this on a coin log. They send out the coin to follow it's travels, and the initial conversation regarding log deletions were in the case of an ownership transfer where only a few discover logs were removed. With the millions of coins currently in the system, traveling, being discovered. There doesn't appear to be this huge problem of log deletions. And I hate to have GS make more rules on a 'What if'

This is a strawman argument, it does not make sense.

As the rule is, there is no rule. There needs to be some level of guidance for the people who like to take things to the extreme on both sides of the coin (no pun intended). No rules = anarchy = situations like these, where two sides get heated, angry, and wedges get driven between factions. I don't want that, and I doubt anyone here does. Yet, that seems to be where we are. True, I said I like to debate, but try to read my entire post and not pick it apart to use the parts you like. I have presented the arguments for my side on numerous occasions. Now I'm here trying to figure out what the other side is exactly, and I'm having a hard time doing it. The good arguments have all regarded things like accidental logs, mistaken drops into wrong caches, virtual logs, things of that nature. Not once has there been a good argument given for allowing the continued deletions of rightful grabbed/discovery logs. At this point, that's my only desire in this thread, is to find out why you would want such a practice to continue unless it involves something that I mentioned above. Can YOU help me with that? This quote is pretty funny because I used your entire post #219 without deleting any of it. :laughing: I highly doubt that I or anyone else can give you what in your opinion is a "good argument" for allowing the current guidelines (not rules) to continue unchanged. No matter what is put forth you will find something wrong with it. You have your opinion and I have mine. I would like to continue to have the right to delete logs on the coins I own as I see fit. Whether I exercise that right or not is something different. I still want that right. Maybe this is a more widespread problem than I think it is. My feeling is that the log deletions happen very rarely and the OP was venting because it happened to him. It also sounds like there are a very few cachers who do do it. I have moved probably close to 500 trackables and haven't had a log deleted. However, there has been one poster in this thread who has had several deleted all from one owner. If I had that happen to me I wouldn't bother with that owner's trackables either moving them or discovering them. Very well put! You conveyed EXACTLY what I feel. Thanks for carrying the water for me.

If you read the entire thread from start to finish there are several reasons to continue with the current policy of allowing deletion of logs. Just because they aren’t a solid reason in your opinion doesn’t mean that they aren’t a solid reason. Cool. Point taken. You don't want a rule change. I'm not really sure why, if you have things the way you want them, that you continue to post here and stir the hornets nest. Don't get me wrong, it's fine by me. I appreciate you sounding the rally cry for the vast majority that agree with the need for a rule change on this issue. I'm just not sure how it's helping from your perspective. From my side, I just like to debate. These issues are fun for me, IF there's an actual argument to the contrary. That's what I'm trying to find from you, or one of your Oregon counterparts randomly taking part in this thread, one at a time. I agree with randomincherencies that I prefer the rule as it is. If any change is to be made then thebruce0 has made a very intriguing suggestion. However, if you G&C are just here to debate because in general you like to debate then it would seem to me that you are the one stirring up the hornet’s nest. I also don’t see where you see the vast majority asking for a change. The “vast majority” of cachers don’t come to these forums….. For the record I live in Michigan and have only met one of the posters in this thread in person. I have interacted with others through this forum, coin trading or fantasy football. I also don't believe I have ever deleted a log from a coin I have adopted. +1

I'm sorry. I wasn't clear about the history comment. Yes, it's the history of the coins, but it's also the history of the coiner who posted it! I think they're BOTH important! And I'm talking about coin logs IN GENERAL...not just this particular coin and those particular logs. They may have been boring to everyone including the loggers, I don't know. I didn't read them and I don't know the people involved. I DO know that I have discovered many coins at events, out on the trails, in and at geocaches. I collect those little icons and I expect my logs to mark my days of geocaching/geocoining, and I'd be very upset if someone just deleted them. I play by the rules. Now that I'm aware that I can lose something important to the way I play this game simply because someone else plays differently (while still following the rules), I'd like to see a change in those rules. Period. Still not Convinced that there is a real problem here that needs to be rectified with more rules. Logs are not being deleted willy nilly.

What evidence do you have that we are counterparts, and why would that matter anyway? This statement seems designed to shut down a legitimate debatable discussion posted in a thread that is solely designed to discuss the nuances of geocoins. I started this thread and the only person I have ever met that has also replied in this thread is the original coin owner who stated his preference about the entire issue. The only other coiner who has posted that I have had any relationship with (due to playing geocoin fantasy football) has a counter opinion to mine (and she presented her views very well) That said I don't think who knows who really matters in this discussion as long as it remains a discussion that is civil and debates the actual points presented. Feel free to support your friends and geo buddies, but please present a logical argument. Exactly, but I am not the one who is making these implications.

No you haven't. I've met one person who has posted in this thread. The rest I don't know from Adam. The same can't be said for you, and you are correct that it does not minimize your point of view. It does seem to localize it, however, which was my only point to begin with. Yes I can make the Same Assertion as you. And being I am from Oregon (BTW,the birthplace of geocaching) maybe my point should carry more weight. J/K of course.

. Read carefully what people write. I didn't say anything on any 'Bill of Rights'. I was commenting on your use of words - "privilege" and "right". If it were a "privilege" then I would not expect to find "Discover" as an option for logging geocoins - that's the point I was making. It is a privilege for people to share their geocoins. With geocaching when people move or discover a geocoin they have the right to log it as such. Just as the owner has the right to remove some logs from their geocoin, currently. The Geocaching 101 FAQ says the following: "Discover" the Trackable When you have seen a Trackable in person, but have not moved it, you can log that you have "discovered" it. ... It says you are allowed to log it as Discovered... sounds like people have the right to do it to me. Again, just my point of view, and you have yours. Oh - and you still have not corrected the coding issue from the earlier post. I was going to post something similar to keewee's post, quoted from The Geocaching 101 FAQ. Let me add this from Geocoin FAQ: Geocoin FAQ What is a Geocoin? A Geocoin is a special coin created by individuals or groups of geocachers as a kind of signature item or calling card. Like Travel Bug® Trackables, each Geocoin is assigned a unique tracking ID which allows them to travel from geocache to geocache or to be passed amongst friends, picking up stories along the way. The bold is mine. The color change to emphasize my feeling about the importance of the HISTORY of the coins told through the logs. Again - the only logs deleted were discovery logs made at one event, no real colorful history here, the coin was not moved, had no pics taken, no stories, just 'TFTD' logs.

I think the "cheap" comment was already discussed and apologized for, so I would hope we don't need to continue to address that. You make a very good point though. The one who purchases the coin, be it new or used, does "pay for" the icon. I also recognize your right to request that YOUR coins not be discovered at events. They're your coins and you have the right to request that. However, in the game of geocaching and in extension, geocoining...discovering IS allowed and a reward IS granted for doing so. The 'Cheap' comment may have been addressed already, but I felt that my view point needed to be made. Also, The tracking #'s were added to geocoins a few years back at the pleasure of the geocoin owner so they could benefit from watching it being moved by other geocachers. This original idea was strictly for the geocoin owner and not the person that moved it and the original icons for coins were all the same, generic. When the unique Icon was developed and introduced it pretty much created a monster with geocachers wanting to collect these tiny pics. But in reality, the geocoin is owned and so is that icon. In The original content of this thread it was stated that the only logs removed were discovery logs at a single event. That coin never moved again. With discovery logging at events, alot times the loggers have never really seen the item, they just received a tracking # list to log, and never saw the coin and did not even know what they were logging. The owner of these coins should have the option to get rid of these logs when purchasing an activated coin. OK then, how do you differentiate between those who never saw the geocoin and those who picked it up and turned it over and over in their fingers for several minutes muttering "Wow" "Great geocoin"...? ETA - the later certainly deserve the icon IMO! Well, the NEW owner would not know this, but it should still be Their Option to keep or remove these logs. You are getting upset with the new owner but they are not the ones getting rid of these coins, maybe before logging a coin at an event you should ask the owner if they plan on keeping this coin forever. That's not feasible. If you want to change peoples minds, you need to come up with something that's at the very least reasonable. Things happen. Folks lose jobs. Guys stop geocaching. People die. I'm still wishing and waiting for one solid reason to come up for continuing to allow deleted logs of the regular variety. Not the mistake logs, not the editing of logs, but the deletion of rightful discovery logs for no apparent reason. It's fine if you want to argue your point, but what exactly is your point? The point is - I do not have to convince you or anybody else as I am not asking for a rule change, you are. I prefer it to stay the way it is. and far as I am concerned you have not convinced me that it should change because the issue is not vast enough, not everyone removes logs only a very small few do this and from what I have read they are only discovery logs from events nothing more so this to me does not warrant a rule change. Cool. Point taken. You don't want a rule change. I'm not really sure why, if you have things the way you want them, that you continue to post here and stir the hornets nest. Don't get me wrong, it's fine by me. I appreciate you sounding the rally cry for the vast majority that agree with the need for a rule change on this issue. I'm just not sure how it's helping from your perspective. From my side, I just like to debate. These issues are fun for me, IF there's an actual argument to the contrary. That's what I'm trying to find from you, or one of your Oregon counterparts randomly taking part in this thread, one at a time. well I have noticed that alot of the posters here, that share your point of view, are counterparts of yours. So just because we are from the same area, does not minimize our point of views.

Discovery on coins is a Privilege - not a right I would strongly disagree with you there. Why? Because Discovered is an option on the geocoin page - therefore it is a right for anyone who see's that geocoin. Not a privilege. (IMO) (Oh, and I corrected your missing quote marker - you should too in your previous post, otherwise it will cause problems for anyone using Reply on your post. (Your missing the start quote for imoutnabout)) Oh I'm sorry - I was not aware there was 'Bill of Rights' for logging geocoins. Can you send me that link please.

Whether it should be Their Option to keep or remove these logs is the matter of discussion here and personally I'm hoping that GS will make a ruling one way or another based on the players opinions. Your opinion seems to be that they should. Mine is that they shouldn't. (Keep in mind that I also have a very strong feeling about the log itself...not JUST the icon.) That being said, I'm not upset with anyone who is still playing by the rules. Currently the rules allow deleting. I want to see that changed to protect EVERYONE'S rights in this game. Discovery on coins is a Privilege - not a right

I think the "cheap" comment was already discussed and apologized for, so I would hope we don't need to continue to address that. You make a very good point though. The one who purchases the coin, be it new or used, does "pay for" the icon. I also recognize your right to request that YOUR coins not be discovered at events. They're your coins and you have the right to request that. However, in the game of geocaching and in extension, geocoining...discovering IS allowed and a reward IS granted for doing so. The 'Cheap' comment may have been addressed already, but I felt that my view point needed to be made. Also, The tracking #'s were added to geocoins a few years back at the pleasure of the geocoin owner so they could benefit from watching it being moved by other geocachers. This original idea was strictly for the geocoin owner and not the person that moved it and the original icons for coins were all the same, generic. When the unique Icon was developed and introduced it pretty much created a monster with geocachers wanting to collect these tiny pics. But in reality, the geocoin is owned and so is that icon. In The original content of this thread it was stated that the only logs removed were discovery logs at a single event. That coin never moved again. With discovery logging at events, alot times the loggers have never really seen the item, they just received a tracking # list to log, and never saw the coin and did not even know what they were logging. The owner of these coins should have the option to get rid of these logs when purchasing an activated coin. OK then, how do you differentiate between those who never saw the geocoin and those who picked it up and turned it over and over in their fingers for several minutes muttering "Wow" "Great geocoin"...? ETA - the later certainly deserve the icon IMO! Well, the NEW owner would not know this, but it should still be Their Option to keep or remove these logs. You are getting upset with the new owner but they are not the ones getting rid of these coins, maybe before logging a coin at an event you should ask the owner if they plan on keeping this coin forever. That's not feasible. If you want to change peoples minds, you need to come up with something that's at the very least reasonable. Things happen. Folks lose jobs. Guys stop geocaching. People die. I'm still wishing and waiting for one solid reason to come up for continuing to allow deleted logs of the regular variety. Not the mistake logs, not the editing of logs, but the deletion of rightful discovery logs for no apparent reason. It's fine if you want to argue your point, but what exactly is your point? The point is - I do not have to convince you or anybody else as I am not asking for a rule change, you are. I prefer it to stay the way it is. and far as I am concerned you have not convinced me that it should change because the issue is not vast enough, not everyone removes logs only a very small few do this and from what I have read they are only discovery logs from events nothing more so this to me does not warrant a rule change.

I think the "cheap" comment was already discussed and apologized for, so I would hope we don't need to continue to address that. You make a very good point though. The one who purchases the coin, be it new or used, does "pay for" the icon. I also recognize your right to request that YOUR coins not be discovered at events. They're your coins and you have the right to request that. However, in the game of geocaching and in extension, geocoining...discovering IS allowed and a reward IS granted for doing so. The 'Cheap' comment may have been addressed already, but I felt that my view point needed to be made. Also, The tracking #'s were added to geocoins a few years back at the pleasure of the geocoin owner so they could benefit from watching it being moved by other geocachers. This original idea was strictly for the geocoin owner and not the person that moved it and the original icons for coins were all the same, generic. When the unique Icon was developed and introduced it pretty much created a monster with geocachers wanting to collect these tiny pics. But in reality, the geocoin is owned and so is that icon. In The original content of this thread it was stated that the only logs removed were discovery logs at a single event. That coin never moved again. With discovery logging at events, alot times the loggers have never really seen the item, they just received a tracking # list to log, and never saw the coin and did not even know what they were logging. The owner of these coins should have the option to get rid of these logs when purchasing an activated coin. OK then, how do you differentiate between those who never saw the geocoin and those who picked it up and turned it over and over in their fingers for several minutes muttering "Wow" "Great geocoin"...? ETA - the later certainly deserve the icon IMO! Well, the NEW owner would not know this, but it should still be Their Option to keep or remove these logs. You are getting upset with the new owner but they are not the ones getting rid of these coins, maybe before logging a coin at an event you should ask the owner if they plan on keeping this coin forever.

I think the "cheap" comment was already discussed and apologized for, so I would hope we don't need to continue to address that. You make a very good point though. The one who purchases the coin, be it new or used, does "pay for" the icon. I also recognize your right to request that YOUR coins not be discovered at events. They're your coins and you have the right to request that. However, in the game of geocaching and in extension, geocoining...discovering IS allowed and a reward IS granted for doing so. The 'Cheap' comment may have been addressed already, but I felt that my view point needed to be made. Also, The tracking #'s were added to geocoins a few years back at the pleasure of the geocoin owner so they could benefit from watching it being moved by other geocachers. This original idea was strictly for the geocoin owner and not the person that moved it and the original icons for coins were all the same, generic. When the unique Icon was developed and introduced it pretty much created a monster with geocachers wanting to collect these tiny pics. But in reality, the geocoin is owned and so is that icon. In The original content of this thread it was stated that the only logs removed were discovery logs at a single event. That coin never moved again. With discovery logging at events, alot times the loggers have never really seen the item, they just received a tracking # list to log, and never saw the coin and did not even know what they were logging. The owner of these coins should have the option to get rid of these logs when purchasing an activated coin.

Not possible, unless of course the coin owner is willing to meet with all of the people who had their logs deleted. Otherwise, it's nothing more than a virtual log, likely to get the coin locked completely. Hopefully not a practice that you're using with any of your many geocoins. No, They have already seen this coin, the owner is not handing out the tracking # to everybody, just those who logged it previously. And I resent your implication of me doing such a thing I am fully aware of the rules regarding virtual logging! if they are willing to let them relog the coin then what was the point of deleting them in the 1st place why were they not just left on there Because, The new owner has initiated a new activation date and and new starting point, so they don't want logs predating the activation. That's why. simple really I say don't be so cheap and buy unactivatied coins and you wouldn't have any drama. Being Cheap has NOTHING to do with it. Some coins are no longer available to buy from a vendor, so you have to buy them from a private party. Don't be ignorant. I have many coins are activated and more so that are not. Actually, the one being 'Cheap' here is not the one that purchases the coin, but the one that discovers it. The purchaser of the geocoin has purchased the right to that icon, but the discovery geocacher has done nothing but look at it. I for one will not allow discovery logs on some of my trackables if it is done so at an event. I do not go to events to make discovery on geocoins because I don't believe that is an earned icon, and I will delete any logs on my coins where I have asked that the item not to be taken to events. I for one like the liberty of doing so and would not be in favor of the those logs being locked.

I have been trolling this forum thread today and it would appear to me that G&C and Lions Lair are the bigger offenders. Geominions was just defending themselves.

My guess is 84