DragonflyTotem

Recognizing that it would clearly involve some extra work by volunteers already spending a lot of time, I wonder if anyone has considered how "way-cool" it would be to see a bunch of new ECs actually published on 10-10-10? Just saying....

Yes, I know that this topic has come up before (like when the coins were about to become available and while they were available) but thought that this might be good way/place to have a general conversation about how nice it would be to be able to obtain Earthcache Geocoins again, and how much we learn about geology by having those coins. I'd contacted GSA and was told that there were no immediate plans to get more made. So I'm thinking that enough discussion here might result in renewed interest in having more made. And to keep this conversation here (rather than getting lost in the Geocoin area) I thought that I'd comment on what I've learned about geology and Earthcaching by looking at pictures of the coins on the GSA site: subduction zones are very interesting; and "Sharkz" isn't a geological term. Anyone else?

you mean this Think that was one that I'd seen....but seem to recall another that was more specific about spelling out the GPS separation. Have searched for it already but you know how that is with forum searching.

I do seem to recall a prior thread somewhere that discussed that the only minimum distance requirements on an EC being related to having a minimum separation of GZs for mapping purposes (so the sites can be distinguished).

Actually I'm not sure you do understand the hang up or not I find it very difficult to believe that an Earthcache, as it is currently defined, is geographically restrictive. Seriously! We are surrounded by Geology or evidence of past Geologic forces. Literally surrounded! The only limitation, as I understand it, is the restriction not to duplicate Earth Science Lessons that are covered in nearby Earthcache Listings. When it comes right down to it, it sounds like you submitted a Listing that was not within the spirit of the Guidelines, or if you will, the "definition" of what an Earthcache should be. So instead of working with the EC Reviewer to address their concerns, you've decided to come to the Forums to support a change in what is acceptable material for an Earthcache Listing? That sounds like a serious uphill battle my friend. I could be wrong, but I think the more expeditious route would be to work with the EC Reviewer to bring your submission in compliance with the current Guidelines. Great debate all the same, but I don't think it's going to help get your Listing Published. No, you're misunderstanding the situation. I'm certainly willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but I've come to the forum with a respectful attitude to discuss the very issues that the EC reviewers indicate are worth discussing. Frankly I resent your condescending tone and take what you've decided to sling as a ad hominem attack. I'm shocked that you would do that, especially without even having an adequate understanding of the facts. I submitted a site and one EC reviewer rejected that. I asked questions for further explanation because what I submitted seems to be included in the GSA definition of "earth science" and was told that the environmental geology aspects are not included in the Groundspeak definition of "earth science." When I asked for additional information it got sent to Geoaware. Geoaware stated that based on the Groundspeak definition of earth science that the cache could not be approved AND he stated that the the Groundspeak definition didn't match the GSA definition AND that the GSA definition was less restrictive. It isn't a question of addressing their concerns, they said that it was that the current definition excluded the things that I wanted to address. And just so that you know (since you clearly do not), I also discussed with Gary about going through a formal appeal process but his response was that based on the current Groundspeak definition that he couldn't approve the cache. And it was through that discussion that the thought was discussed about tossing the Groundspeak definition around for discussion. I have exchanged quite a few emails with the EC reviewers about this, and am even continuing to do so now. And for the record, the EC reviewers have actually thanked me for the "courteous manner in which I stated my objections" as we've carried out our dialog. Regardless of what you "find difficult to believe" the fact is that in discussing this cache with the EC reviewers it was stated that other ECs existing in the region which emphasize the same environmental geological aspects should NOT have been approved (even though they have been approved after the guidelines change).

Yes, Geoaware should probably answer most of this...but to me, if the definition is supposed to include "landforms" then you have to include something like a salt marsh because that is one of the examples given when defining a landform. And a salt marsh is impacted by both the biology and the ecology as an estuary (also a landform). The health of the salt marsh as it contributes to an aquifer through infiltration impacts the hydrologic cycle. All of which seem to fit within the teachers guide, but which are for the purpose of an EC too much biology and ecology. The teacher's guide as I understand it, doesn't fit the definition now in use as half of what is there isn't included.

I understand that...but it's equally difficult to try to discuss the "what" about the proposed cache without trying to make it any more or any less than it is. Compounded of course because we have no easy way to share a cache that hasn't yet been published. The gist of it though is what I'd said in the feedback thread: "A basic definition that I found for "environmental geology" was: "Environmental geology involves the practical application of the principles of geology in the solving of problems in the environment" including the management of "geological and hydrological resources such as surface water and ground water and land use." As a landform, a salt marsh is directly impacted by both the biology and the ecology. The health of a salt marsh impacts its life span, and this one has been reduced from some 3,000 acres to the last remaining 100 acres. The biology -- the plants are what keep it alive, so you need to discuss how the presence of fresh water plants are a warning sign of the impending geological changes (degradation leading to further reduction in size), and the ecology of it -- because a marsh that is a watershed unto itself, serving as an aquifer is then a significant impactor of the hydrology cycle. And it is all of that which I discuss in the cache description. The big hang-up I believe is because of the fact that although a salt marsh is a landform, it is different from other landforms....the regular changes it does or doesn't go through impact its future geological makeup. But all of that is squarely within the realm of environmental geology, and I've had some long conversations with some folks in that area. But that is a specific part of geology....and I think that those with a background in conventional geology are perhaps unfamiliar with environmental geology, where (as I've been told) the management of "geological and hydrological resources such as surface water and ground water and land use" is very much about biology and ecology. Not sure if any of the above is furthering the discussion or the understanding of the issues though.

I believe that the current Groundspeak definition of what is or is not Earth Science for the purpose of approving an EC is too restrictive. After discussing this with Geoaware and another EC reviewer, I started a thread in the feedback section related to asking for a change to that definition: Feedback Topic

I appreciate the feedback and will try harder. I share your frustrations, and understand them well! Instead of hijacking your thread I'll start my own.

Great -- thanks much for your support! I've just sent that info to you!

I'm testing the system again, just submitted my second EC this afternoon!

I'm hoping to identify any geologists in Hampton Roads that are also cachers. In support of International EarthCache Day on 10/10/10 we're having a local event (GC2CEN8) and I'm hoping to identify someone who might be interested in talking about the geology of our area, etc. If you are a geologist or know someone that is that you could recommend, please contact me!

I've already got the event for my area announced: GC2CEN8 Still trying to work on the details as I'm having a tough time getting any response from either of the two local universities with geologists, but hope to have discussions about the local ECs, and have some seasoned EC'ers discuss both logging and creating ECs. I also have picked up a couple of GS/EC geocoins for raffle. One thing that would sure be nice would be if we could somehow convince GSA to go ahead and get more of the EC Master series of geocoins made up so we could have them in hand for 10/10/10. They say they have no plans in the near-term to get more. If only we knew someone that might have sway with them to convince them that it would be great to have those. Hmmmm..... You might want to see if the are any geocaching geologists in your area if you do not hear back from the universities (we have at least 3 in our area - counting myself)...or try your local geologic survey That's an idea I hadn't yet thought of. One question though....any suggestions on how I find out if there are any geocaching geologists in the area? The only search capability on here that I'm aware of is the Find Another Player, but that's only useful if you know their username. You could post something in your local forums. If nothing else, you may get a reply from someone who knows someone who is a geologist. Also, look at the profiles of some of the locals that have hidden ECs. Not all ECs are hidden by geologists, but we are kind-of drawn to this type of cache. You could also post a "seeking a geocaching geologist" message in the Mid-Atlantic section of these forums. From what I can tell I'm out of luck with local or regional geocaches as it appears that none of the COs are geologists. Haven't tried posting (yet) to the Mid-Atlantic section but will give it a try. I have posted a couple of times in our local caching group's forum with no luck so far, but just posted again to specifically ask if anyone in the group is a geologist. The frustrating part of this is that we have both a community college and a university with a geology/earth sciences program and so far haven't had any responses from either, nor even from a geology club connected to the community college.

I've already got the event for my area announced: GC2CEN8 Still trying to work on the details as I'm having a tough time getting any response from either of the two local universities with geologists, but hope to have discussions about the local ECs, and have some seasoned EC'ers discuss both logging and creating ECs. I also have picked up a couple of GS/EC geocoins for raffle. One thing that would sure be nice would be if we could somehow convince GSA to go ahead and get more of the EC Master series of geocoins made up so we could have them in hand for 10/10/10. They say they have no plans in the near-term to get more. If only we knew someone that might have sway with them to convince them that it would be great to have those. Hmmmm..... You might want to see if the are any geocaching geologists in your area if you do not hear back from the universities (we have at least 3 in our area - counting myself)...or try your local geologic survey That's an idea I hadn't yet thought of. One question though....any suggestions on how I find out if there are any geocaching geologists in the area? The only search capability on here that I'm aware of is the Find Another Player, but that's only useful if you know their username.

I've already got the event for my area announced: GC2CEN8 Still trying to work on the details as I'm having a tough time getting any response from either of the two local universities with geologists, but hope to have discussions about the local ECs, and have some seasoned EC'ers discuss both logging and creating ECs. I also have picked up a couple of GS/EC geocoins for raffle. One thing that would sure be nice would be if we could somehow convince GSA to go ahead and get more of the EC Master series of geocoins made up so we could have them in hand for 10/10/10. They say they have no plans in the near-term to get more. If only we knew someone that might have sway with them to convince them that it would be great to have those. Hmmmm.....

Sorry for typo above -- I meant to say that they have NO immediate plans (next six months) to reissue the EC Master geocoins. That's a shame as I know that I'd definitely be interested.

That's a real good question! I have found out from EC that they have immediate plans (next six months) to reissue the EC Master geocoins. That's a shame as I know that I'd definitely be interested.

I respectfully disagree with that statement. A walk to the corner store is short and in a neighborhood you are very familiar with. Demographically speaking, cachers tend to be middle class or upper middle class individuals who would tend to live in lower crime neighborhoods. Urban caching takes you to different neighborhoods that are less familiar than your own neighborhood and will sometimes have higher crime rates. The trip to the corner store will typically be done on a sidewalk, but a cacher will be going through alleyways, behind trees & bushes, and other out-of-the way places that are also favored by muggers and rapists. Some of the out-of-the-way places are also great locations for inconspicuous drug use. (Those syringe wrappers on the ground are not from sloppy diabetics and those little baggies you see are not from other cachers.) Also, while caching you're carrying a very hock-able electronic device and you are busy looking at it or at possible GZ's. Walking to the store your head is up, your hand is empty, your attention isn't divided so you are more likely to notice trouble coming. BTW, a lot of really good and simple advice on this thread. Absolutely agree with your comments. I'm actively involved locally as a neighborhood watch coordinator and with a crime prevention steering committee. Once a quarter I spend 10 hours riding with an officer. And each time we've wandered into a discussion about geocaching (usually from me checking for caches on my iphone while the officer is on break). And each and every time the end result has been that the officer has shared some interesting things about some areas where caches are located. For example, known drug activity, gang activity, etc. And I wouldn't have necessarily suspected that based on seeing the area. And don't even get me started about approaching a cache hide at a pay phone or bus stop in those areas -- based on what I've heard I probably won't ever seek any of those urbans again. And this probably could be its own thread, but if I'm going to the grocery store, I'm also carrying my concealed weapon (for which I have a permit). I don't feel comfortable doing the same when caching because I have lots in my hands most of the time, and am in situations where I may dislodge my weapon (or worse). And it is a LOT harder to have the same level of awareness that I have when simply walking into the store from the parking lot vs. geocaching in it where I'm not looking for potential threats as much. But I have been places geocaching when after I've arrived and been there a few minutes I ponder the sanity of my being there, by myself.

Sounds like an invitation for a whole new string of caches from someone -- the "Paul Blart" caches. A series of caches hidden on private shopping center or mall parking lots where they have a security patrol. Note: I am kidding. Shouldn't need to say that but otherwise someone will come back with a snarky or two. Watch out for Mr. Blart LOL....just shows that no matter how dumb an idea might be, someone else has probably already thought of it. But I would like to mention that this is just a single cache, not a series. So I can't award full points.

Which I believe is illegal in at least nine southern states. Thanks for the laugh!

Sounds like an invitation for a whole new string of caches from someone -- the "Paul Blart" caches. A series of caches hidden on private shopping center or mall parking lots where they have a security patrol. Note: I am kidding. Shouldn't need to say that but otherwise someone will come back with a snarky or two.

That's an interesting idea! Just received two EC geocoins that I could use for that or something similar. Thanks!

Thanks for that feedback! Good to hear that it looks great, and even got that from Geoaware!

And congrats to you as well! Neat that we not only both got them approved, but on the same day even!

Guidelines "Virtual Caches and Webcam Caches These are special categories of caches that ask the seeker to find a pre-existing item to log. We are no longer accepting new Virtual Caches or Webcam Caches. Caches which existed before November 2005 have been allowed to remain as grandfathered caches." So the short answer is that you can no longer place any new virtual caches. And you can see EarthCaching for more details about those types of caches but they are all about providing opportunities for learning about Earth sciences.