GreyingJay

You'd be surprised. For the better part of a year I was only doing a cache every now and again, just like you planned. But after buying my 60csx it was like my caching 'productivity' went through the roof. Admittedly I still don't need Pocket Query functionality to do so, but it's just cool knowing that I can just go caching on a whim anytime, say if I arrive too early for an appointment somewhere and there's an urban cache 2 blocks away. As for not liking third party software - I respect your opinion, but surely you don't only use Microsoft-produced software on your PC, or only Apple-produced software on your Mac?

I think the thing to remember is that most geocachers, when they go to hide caches, don't like to bushwhack for very long either. Very likely there is a better trail that they took. If you find yourself having to bushwhack a lot, then you're probably not seeing the right trail. There was one I did recently with a friend where we followed what we thought was a geotrail (it may well have been) that followed a game trail. It was only 200 meters or so but it took us about 30 minutes (not even that bad by the OP's standards). We were getting scratched up and bloodied, and eaten alive by mosquitos. Worse, we knew we would have to come back OUT after we found the cache. After we found the cache we did a little bit of exploring and discovered the trail, which was wide enough to drive a car on, and brought you to within 50 meters of the cache. It did a big circle around before it popped out into the clearing, literally a full soccer field length away from where we entered the brush (we were in some woods beside a soccer field). In my find log I highly recommended that people do some exploring BEFORE entering the treeline, and hinted that they should look for metal posts (which marked the trailhead). The next few finders were grateful. After my find log popped off the bottom of the page, I started seeing "Wow! Brutal bushwhack!" logs again...

Easy GPS is both easy and free. There's still the matter of downloading the waypoints, which you would want a Premium Membership for. Here's how I use my 60csx: 1. Create a pocket query for every traditional and multi-cache that I have not yet found within 50 miles of my home coordinates. (I don't include mystery/puzzles because they're usually not located at the posted coordinates anyway, so why bother). 2. Download the pocket query file and open it with Easy GPS. Download them all to the 60csx. Downloaded caches by default have the "Geocache" waypoint icon (closed treasure chest). 3. (I also have a Palm T/X running CacheMate software, and I convert/download the same pocket query file into a Palm database.) 4. Whenever I feel like geocaching, I'll use the GPS to see what geocaches are nearby me (using the Geocaching mode). If I need extra info, I'll look it up on my Palm. I select "Find Geocache" on the 60csx and away I go. I have downloaded city maps, so I use "Follow Road" and have it route me to a nearby parking area. 5. Then I get out of the car and set it to "Off Road" for the rest of the way. 6. When I found the cache, I hit "Found" in the GPS. It changes the icon on the waypoint to an opened treasure chest (geocache found). It also suggests the next-nearest cache for me to find. I look it up on my Palm, hit "Find", and away I go again... 7. Every so often (once every week or two) I will delete all waypoints on my GPS with the "Geocache Found" symbol. This reduces clutter on my map display screen. You could just subscribe to a premium membership for one month (cost you $3 -- less than a single trip to Starbucks) and create a pocket query for caches nearby you. Download it, load it into the GPS, cancel the membership. Otherwise, you can type in waypoints yourself, and if you manually select the Geocache icon, your geocaching mode will work just fine. However, once you get hooked, I bet you'll learn to like having waypoints bulk-downloaded into your GPS. There's something about the 60csx that makes it so easy, so fun, to keep on finding caches, my "throughput" doubled or tripled over this past summer. It's just so convenient to not have to manage paper printouts or sit there typing in coordinates all the time.

Right. But I didn't pay the extra $50 so I could stand and spin in circles at the start of every caching trip. And no matter how level I hold it, it never seems to be quite happy -- and I need to sit there for a few seconds while it levels itself. Forget it. I leave it turned off, and I use the bearing from the GPS calculations. As far as "user error" goes, I know how to use it, it's just a pain to calibrate and hold it still while it gets its bearings, and it uses up battery faster to boot.

If you hadn't already bought the unit, I would have suggested you save a couple of bucks and get the 60cx instead (the one without the compass and altimeter). Unless you really think you'd use those features. I thought I would use the built-in compass, but it's so ornery that I leave it turned off -- I seem to get better results when I'm moving and the thing calculates my bearing based on position. If you don't have a city street mapping CD, get one! You'll find the unit SO much more useful and you will use it frequently, not just for geocaching but for driving all over the place. Get a case. If you smash the rubber rounded buttons the wrong way, they can break off. I did that with my 60csx, and it only just got back from Garmin yesterday. They were really good about it, though! Even though it was clearly accidental damage and my own fault, they gave me a replacement unit under warranty! Otherwise, enjoy the unit!

Depends on where, I guess. There's a cache in my area (I have not yet gotten around to finding it) where the first waypoint leads you to a key, on a keyring hanging from a tree. The coordinates on the key tag leads you to the cache container, which is a locked box. You use the key to open the box, then you put the key back at the first waypoint on your way out. In several years it has been there I think he only had to replace the key once or twice.

I think it would be useful, if for nothing else than to put an end to the endless ALR debates going on...

It's not entirely about skill, either. You could have X-ray vision, but if the cache was muggled the day before, you're going to DNF it. ... unless you're one of those throw-down types. If you are, you can go \ a/+++ &*[ !@a NO CARRIER

I dunno about "sissors", but I'm not too keen on finding scissors in caches.. Or knives... oh wait, that's another thread!

Look, the OP clearly stated that the guy trying to log the cache IS NOW A PREMIUM MEMBER. Can we just compromise by letting the guy have his find now and call it done?

Sure. Use the Golden Rule -- if this was your cache, would you want someone else to trash this junk? I trashed out a soggy packet of carrot seeds from a cache. I half expected them to have sprouted with all the moisture in there.

Level 7-8 for me. Most recent was my purchase of a Palm T/X and Garmin GPSMAP 60csx, both almost exclusively for use with geocaching. The 60csx was a night-and-day upgrade from my eTrex Legend. The Palm sees no real use other than to run CacheMate. Funny thing was for a long time I was very much a PDA user -- I was a Handspring Visor early adopter, then switched to a several models of Sony CLIE... but nowadays I've never bothered, and sold my PDA's. I even bought a Palm Tungsten E2 a while back but returned it because it was mostly sitting unused. But now the T/X is getting used very frequently...

That's quite a FTF prize!

As the last few posts have clearly stated, the purpose of a PM-only cache is that the listings can only be seen by PM's. This is (almost) tantamount to saying that they can only be found by premium members. They can be logged by anyone.

Because making a sign, finding a red hat or taking a picture is a trivial task. I can find the materials for those readily, or at very low cost, and it will only take an extra minute or two out of my day. Also, whether or not I want to wear a silly hat or sign is a choice I can make at the time I do the cache. To find 100 caches (or any other arbitrary number) is not something that can be done readily -- practically speaking, you either have it, or you don't. You're not going to go "oh, I need 100 cache finds? Hmm, ok, be right back..." unless you were already pretty close. To reach 100 would take a few days of work (at least) and expense (gas, etc). To the casual geocacher, that's nowhere near easily, quickly, or cheaply done. It took me about a year and a half to reach 100 finds. I hope to hit 200 by month's end.

Here's my "me, too" post. ESPECIALLY since the original FTF finder IS NOW a Premium Member. To STILL disallow the find because "well, he WASN'T at the time!" borders on ridiculous and at this point seems simply spiteful. Perhaps the OP, who is tired of seeing this email exchange in his inbox, should remove the cache from his watchlist, making sure to post a note on the cache page explaining why. Oh, and link to this thread in the forums where the cache owner will see that the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY (if not unanimous) of responders think the cache owner is being a ****. PMO caches are not some kind of elite, exclusive club. Even then, many elite exclusive clubs offer some provision for bringing friends in.

Well, as you know, the accuracy of the coordinates your GPS is giving you will vary from minute to minute and day to day due to all kinds of variables. So what many people do is take several coordinate readings over the span of a few minutes, at the very least, up to a few days (i.e. they make multiple trips). Then they take an average of those numbers. Suppose I place a cache. I put my GPS down on the rock where my cache is hidden, and let it sit for a few minutes. It seems to stabilize on minutes coordinates of 15.101 and 25.850 (degrees portion omitted for simplicity). I go for a bit of a walk and come back and do it again. This time I get 15.109 25.843. I go back the following day and I get 15.106 25.851. That's three sets of coordinates. I'll average them, to get a final set of coordinates 15.105 25.848, which is what I post on the website. All I did was average (101, 109, 105) and (850, 843, 851). Some GPS units have a built-in averaging function where you just leave it in the spot for a while and let it crunch the numbers for you.

Is it a legitimate FTF? Yes, because he found it first. Was it fair to everyone else who had to work four times harder to get to your cache? Maybe not, but then again, the other players did give up the information he needed. If you want to be absolutely explicit (but why would you be so worried about it?) you could add words to the effect of "In order to claim a find you MUST find the four partial coordinates" -- but then how would they prove it? Also, this starts to become a cache with "additional logging requirements" which is a whole other can of worms.

So getting the coordinates from the owner or anyone else via; email, invitation to beta-test, personal website, different caching website, Madame Cleo or trilateraling travel bugs, before the cache is published is acceptible. Finding the cache and signing the log first is what counts. Well... yes, but it would be unfair to advertise yourself as the "first to find" if you found it because the owner gave you the coordinates. Of COURSE you're first to find, you're the only one so far that knows it exists! So the general convention is that such beta-testers do NOT claim FTF. They could, but it would be tacky. I'm curious, in your philosophy, what happens if I am first to find the cache but someone else finds it second but is first to log the find online? Are neither of us "first to find" then? ... and then what becomes of the third finder who does find the cache and log it online?

I don't think it's mean-spirited at all. If you want to be FTF, then you'd better hop to it as soon as you notice the cache. Don't rely AT ALL on the cache page to tell you if it's "still up for grabs" -- if you're in it for the FTF hunt, then the risk that the cache page is out of date is a risk you'll have to take. After all, whether I deliberately delay my online log to tease other FTF hounds, or whether my internet was down all weekend or I was away on a weekend trip -- the net result is still that I am delayed in writing my log. You wouldn't call me mean-spirited if I was FTF on a new cache but couldn't log until later for legitimate reasons. Yet the net effect on other potential FTF'ers is the same. I've even done caches where there were no online logs when I left the house, but there sure were when I got back home! (Usually means I scored 2TF, ah well). Check out the logs on this puzzle cache to see the (humorous) effects of being FTF and deliberately waiting to log it... (Another thought: If there's only one person in your area well known for nabbing FTF's, place a picture of him/her into the cache when you find it. Or if he leaves a particular signature item, make sure one of them beats him to the cache...)

There were some "top 10 lists" in a thread posted a few weeks ago that will amuse you I think the most important thing is to realize why the "GPS arrow dance" happens and how to deal with it. E.g. Don't trust your GPS while you're standing still.

But you are citing the exact reason for your rant! I would have no problem leaving $10 swag items in caches if I knew that there were $10 swag items for me to take. Heck, I might even be generous and only take a $5 item. In an ideal world, this is how it would work. But I leave my $10 item, the next guy trades it for his 10-cent item, and then you come along and complain that there's only crap in the cache. Well, that's not my fault anymore. The problem lies squarely with greedy cachers. I have always stocked my caches with nice stuff, and when I make trades I always leave nice stuff, frequently taking nothing. If the cache is full of crap when you get there, there is a long list of people who could take the blame... By the way, I thought pocket knives weren't allowed in caches... or is that another rant thread?

As did I! For most of the month of August I took advantage of the slow work days and nice, bright sunny days, and I was finding at least a cache or two a day for a streak of about 3 weeks (my personal best). Gas was just on the verge of the price decline by then. Sure, gas is cheaper now, but I'm also busier at work and the days are getting shorter (it's dark by 7pm now!) so there isn't as much time for caching.

Must obtain coords with a GPS. Not should, not may, not might be a good idea to. Sounds like a rule to me. Sure, except the title of the page is "Guidelines", you even called it "Guidelines for Listing a Cache" in your link above, the link is to a file called guidelines.aspx, and there's a nice big block of text that says We're arguing semantics here, really. I don't really care what it's called. The intent of this rule/guideline is to get accurate GPS coordinates. Of course I fully support that. However, I would argue that whether I *personally* used a GPS and read off the coordinates, or whether I pulled some coordinates out of thin air and called a friend in with his GPS and he says "yep, perfect" -- is arbitrary! Either way, I've got good coordinates, why would there be an issue? In fact I have a cache placement coming up for an event where I literally made up some coordinates. I went to the park and confirmed that there is a cache hiding spot within acceptable EPE radius of my made-up coordinates, and I will be hiding a cache there. (Of course it took a few tries in Google Earth before I found a spot that looked promising...) This is exactly the same process I would have used if I hadn't owned a GPS but called in a friend to confirm the coordinates...

I'm trying to be polite. I thought the first step would be to contact the owner and let him know that his cache really could use maintenance. I even offered to adopt it for him if he was no longer interested in geocaching. He declined. I don't want to appear to be forcing his hand by putting out the SBA. But see for yourself (GCQYKQ).