John in Valley Forge

You can take this log and shove it.

I think this is the first time I've seen this phrase used. Looking at the guideline (3.9) on Grandfathered cache it talks about specific cache types (Virtual, Locationless, Webcam) but doesn't say anything about vacation caches. The guideline *does* describe Grandfathed as follows: "The word "grandfathered" means to grant a special exception. More clearly, to "grandfather" something is to allow certain situations to exist based on an older rule (this is the "grandfather clause") even though a new rule is in place now." I guess technically, a traditional cache placed while on vacation before the vacation guideline went into place would meet the definition, but that doesn't absolve a CO from maintaining their cache or having a maintenance plan. I'm really not suggesting that this cache or other traditional caches that were placed while traveling before the vacation guideline went into place but it might be nice to see a clarification in the guidelines. Grandfathered is how the local reviewer referred to it. It was indeed placed prior to the rules specifically against "vacation" caches (caches placed by people on vacation). I guess a lot of vacation caches just became geo-litter after a while. This one has lived on due to the efforts of cruise passengers. You mean cruise passengers that are also geocachers... I have found quite a few grandfathered caches myself, as well as caches that essentially maintained by the community. I'm thinking of one particular CO that placed quite a few caches in 2002/2003 all over the world. 40 of them are traditionals. I've only found one of them (and one of his virtuals) but most of them appear to be in some pretty spectacular, but occasionally remote locations. We've seen a precedent for the archiving of grandfathered caches when they're not maintained (the guidelines indicate that maintaining the cache page and logs is part of maintenance). The most infamous example is the Four Windows cache which allowed people to armchair log it without impunity. I guess, technically, there are a lot of caches that are grandfathered simply because they were placed before there was a specific guideline in place that would prevent it from being published today. However, in the case of a vacation cache, if the CO is still active, but doesn't live in the area, shouldn't they at least come up with a maintenance plan a bit more solid than "It's doubtful that we'll ever be able to maintain this one, so please bring some spare baggies & a pencil to leave just in case." Yes, I mean visitors who happen to passengers on a particular cruise line and also happen to be cachers. Looking at the logs, there are plenty of them. There were a few on the ship I was on, although I never seemed to catch up with them (5,000 people on board). Honestly, the fact that there was such an old cache located on Labadee beach was one of my deciding factors in choosing this cruise line over another. The rest of the stops on the cruise were standard places, Jamaica, Cayman, Mexico. The CO in this instance seems to have no maintenance plan, but the cache seems to be self sustaining.

That's a magor good statement.

Which rules do you mean?

I think this is the first time I've seen this phrase used. Looking at the guideline (3.9) on Grandfathered cache it talks about specific cache types (Virtual, Locationless, Webcam) but doesn't say anything about vacation caches. The guideline *does* describe Grandfathed as follows: "The word "grandfathered" means to grant a special exception. More clearly, to "grandfather" something is to allow certain situations to exist based on an older rule (this is the "grandfather clause") even though a new rule is in place now." I guess technically, a traditional cache placed while on vacation before the vacation guideline went into place would meet the definition, but that doesn't absolve a CO from maintaining their cache or having a maintenance plan. I'm really not suggesting that this cache or other traditional caches that were placed while traveling before the vacation guideline went into place but it might be nice to see a clarification in the guidelines. Grandfathered is how the local reviewer referred to it. It was indeed placed prior to the rules specifically against "vacation" caches (caches placed by people on vacation). I guess a lot of vacation caches just became geo-litter after a while. This one has lived on due to the efforts of cruise passengers.

Ummm, actually I did think of the local residents. I placed significant amounts of US currency into the hands of many of them there. Not to make this a political thread about Haiti, but the Royal Caribean facility there brings in a lot of money, jobs for those in the surrounding area and in the immediate aftermath of the earthquake, humanitarian aid through a shipping port that was still operating after Port au Prince was damaged. Oh, and at least one local turned geocaching into a business venture, hijacking the cache and offering the help tourists find it for a small fee.

Its a L33Tist cache.

My newest cache is a PM only. Just because I can.

I wondered how long it would take for this to hit the forums. I do not know if I have a copy of your original DNF log from June 2010. I might, in my old emails. I think I started "Watching" this cache before then in preparation for my own trip there. I do recall reading it and I don't think it was any more rude or angry than a lot of logs left by folks around the same time. I really do not understand why yours are deleted. I can only assume that the level of animosity between you and the CO has grown to the breaking point. I feel a special connection to this cache as I am one of those that have perpetuated this grandfathered vacation cache. Before my cruise there, I researched the spot, spoke to other non-finders, as well as the CO. The cache had been lost and was scheduled for archiving, but I asked the local reviewer for a few weeks to fix it. I prepared a lock-n-lock with some goodies and a write-in-rain log book and a TB. I placed the new container in the same spot that has been re-used over and over since beach construction destroyed the original hiding spot (which was about 5 feet away). Despite my pleas, the CO never updated the coordinates on the page nor updated the description, which led to later seekers being unable to find it, the coordinates were off and the description was pre-construction (they paved a dirt path). My container was muggled by the locals, who I have read would take the container and wait for tourists to look for it, offering to help them find the plastic thing for a fee (meh, after all it is Haiti). Luckily though, my TB had already moved on. I still have the cache on my watchlist as it is one of my all time favorites. I fear it will soon be archived though.

I did a similar experiment, though mine was focused on marking a fixed point, (actually 3 fixed points in varying degrees of tree cover), then returning to it at different times of day. Essentially, I wanted to see how well assorted handhelds and phones could return to a location. I have done that too, using a tree stump in my front yard and an umbrella stand in the back yard (as reference points that are pretty much non-moving). Surprising how varied the readings can be on different days. May be cool to see how the readings are all at about the same time.

Well, this should at least prove entertaining. Two low end handhelds, three phones and an MP3 player... If your objective is to create consternation, you'll do fine. If you want accurate coords, why not add at least one reasonably accurate GPS receiver? Actually though, I have the Explorist GC and find it to be pretty accurate. The GPSr chip is the same as in all Magellan units, I believe. The difference between models is more in the maps and software. I would love to see sometime an experiment where a lot of people place various brand consumer GPS units on a particular immovable spot and write down the coordinates, just to see how far off they are from each other. Come to think of it, I am going to a EVENT this evening. Maybe I will try to get some people to try it.

Couldnt they be stages of a puzzle?

I think the tripods make it more accurate. I cannot hold my GPSr that sill when I am standing in the woods. Oh, and the big dish antenna. Oh yeah, they are painted yellow. That makes everything better.

Wont it just be a jumble of the errors of all the units? And do iPods have GPS?

I'd just do a note. I have had caches I did in the winter, went back in the summer and could not find as there was now vegetation. I enjoyed the second hunt, which was challenging, but did not take a second smiley.

That method is extremely unreliable, time consuming and frustrating. I have done caches that use the same principal. Plus I think reviewers would catch on to what you were doing. Either way, finding the final to a 1* multi should be easy enough on the ground.

I have not been approached yet, but if or when I am, I plan to say something like "I'm on a scavenger hunt." For one, in a sense that's what I am doing. And two, I think they'd leave you alone after that. Q: Why are you looking at that guardrail / lamp post / tree? A: I am on a scavenger hunt. Q: Oh! What are you looking for? A: I have no idea. Q: Where is it? A: Within about 40 feet of this spot. Q: How do you know when you find it? A: I just hope I recognize it when I see it. That usually gets them to go away.

I get double entries all the time when using my android app. I just delete one when I get home, if I notice. Otherwise I end up looking through my caches to find the double. It is usually something recent so its not to bad to search.

It can get confusing. Those are really good, practical answers. I have decided that I will classify it as a multi

So I am placing a cache. Cannot decide if it is a Mystery/Puzzle or a Mutli. I would like to hear opinions here. The cache is not located at the posted coordinates. There you will find a number that will tell you how far up the trail to go to get to the cache.

He needs a Travel Bug dog tag. Good Karma for you!

You get what you pay for. The cheaper ones do not seem to hold up as well to the elements in the long run. The only food storage containers I've seen work well are lock-n-locks.

I think the whole logging the find and apparently speaking to the rangers right then and there (unless he went back later or phoned them), and then later coming here and asking advice on what to do is what gets me.

You don't get to pick your own fish, but the restaurant was likely either John A's or Cock of the Walk. If it had live music, it was John A's. If the food was served 'family style' it was Cock of the Walk. John A's. There was a bluegrass band playing on a stage right by our table. I guess my host was just joking about catching your own fish Still, it was good.

Cache in the winter. No, I got one on me during a warm spell in the winter. I hate the little buggers. They climb up your pant legs and end up burrowing into places that you really dont want bugs burrowing into. I pretty much gave up caching for much of last summer. Permethrin spray is the only thing I've found that works.