Kyul_and_Carbon

Thank you both for replying. It definitely seems the regional forums are crickets. I did find a couple FB groups for Southern Indiana and Indiana ... I'm in Greene County so I have a feeling those are my best bet right now. I'll be watching for events as well. Again - thanks!

I see at the top there is a link that says "talk Geocaching in:" listed by links to various states... but when I click on Indiana, it takes me to a new page that doesn't have a discussion forum. Is this expected? Or are there cache forums for state/region? Trying to reach out to the people in our area.

You guess wrong. I have found that particular soggy log strip inside a rusty tin. I found it on July 4th, no less... a great day for visiting a Veterans Memorial. The cache had seen better days because it was hidden in August 2003 -- long before the currently applicable guidance about "Caches that Solicit." Moreover, apart from the words "Thank you for the Service" in the cache name, the cache page is devoid of any text other than a description of the cache. People used to do that. I am sorry keystone, but what is going on with the cache in question is a perceived agenda. Again, going by the REAL definition of agenda, the OP did not ask for action from anyone. She thanked her children and people serving in the military and listed facts. The perception of the reviewer (and whoever requested the re-review of an already published cache) is she had some agenda by thanking the troops and giving facts about the American Legion. Thanking and facts are not agendas. There are HUNDREDS of caches listed that DO have agendas plastered all over them. I think it is a matter of more than what you are "over" as far as your jurisdiction because if this cache is not in your area, then really, by your own words you have no real control over it. But I *do* actually think all reviewers and all of Groundspeak are responsible for understanding the word agenda and what a cache with an agenda looks like - not someone judging another person's intent. The cache must be judged on what actually exists on the page, not what someone "perceived" the OP thinking or saying. I think I read right in that this cache has now been archived. ... what a crock.

Ok, to the combat cacher... WOW... I must say tho, when you find an ammo can... it could be anything

Easy, I never called anybody irrational. Please don't put words into my mouth. had I actually said you "called this group irrational" this would be a valid point. I said, I love how you make this group out to be irrational.... ie my perception of your post is that your tone made these people sound irrational.

The cache is not being singled out. Numerous similar caches have had to be re-written in order to be published. That there are previous similar caches that have been published is irrelevant. The directive from TPTB that Keystone mentions may well have come after they were published. Even if his request came after the publication, there are only 16. It would not be hard to do a search to find them... which with any "decree" such as this, going back and undoing what was done should be part of the change to remove "support our troop" caches. This would relieve reviewers of having used their opinion (agreed upon there); however, it does not defeat the purpose of having caches with "no agendas", suggested or real. As for being singled out - this cache was ALREADY published after the OP worked with the reviewer on the wording. I believe the original wording is on page 2 or something and stated something about winning the war. The OP did change the text originally and it got published. Now, per someone's request, the cache is being reviewed again and will possibly be archived by the reviewer if the wording does not change AGAIN.

I love how you make this group out to be irrational. I have every right to make a decision on if I continue to use GS.com after I see resolution of this problem. Anyone does, including you. I am seriously reconsidering GS.com's platform and whether it is one I wish to support or not. Because - you see, people are identified by the groups they belong to. If your best friend is a bully, then you will be perceived as a bully. So yes - I will feel better if I disassociate myself with platforms and agendas I do not agree with. Until then - I also have every right to use the site until I see what resolution comes about from the problem.

I'm baffled. How can someone say that mentioning an organization is an "agenda." If that is the true case, then the representatives of Ground Speak have no idea what the word agenda means. If the OP is being held accountable for the political platform of an organization she mentions, then there are a LOT more caches that need to be taken down. A cache is not allowed to mention any business, organization, or group because EVERY business, organization, or group has some agenda. Even if the agenda promotes sitting around on their fat arses, its still an agenda. So, if anyone has a cache that mentions a park service - remove it. If anyone has a cache that explains the land owner it is placed on - remove it If anyone has a cache that mentions the city it is located - remove it If anyone has a cache that is on business ground and you mention the business name - remove it If what keystone says is correct, ground speak is holding the cache owners responsible for actions taken by another group. I cannot give facts about a local cemetary a cache is in because the city, which owns the cemetary, has an agenda of some form. It seems someone needs to link the folks over at GS.com to dictionary.com and let them know what an agenda is. CITO is an agenda. Without getting ridiculous and saying caching is an agenda or requesting people to find multiples is an agenda - lets look at what IS really an agenda. I did a quick search for the word "awareness" and found cache's splashed with pink breast cancer awareness ribbons (visual suggestion of an agenda), cache's with banners to support hiking events for leukemia awareness, and a page with the following text: These cache's are clearly requesting action. They are not just saying "this cache is in honor of my (insert relative's name) who is suffering/died from/survived (insert deadly illness)" - they are ASKING for action of some kind. Considering all reviewers were told not to post any cache related to "support our troops" - even the request of awareness and support is wrong. Which, keystone - There are 16 caches with "Support our Troops" specifically in the title. When you say reviewers do not allow their personal opinions to sway what gets published or not.... are you sure about that? Seems that even tho the reviewers were told not to do it, some of them chose their opinion over GS restrictions and published them anyway..... I think its abhorant that this cache is being singled out (and yes, it is easily perceived this way considering the number of blatent agenda caches one can find). Thanking someone or a group of people and stating facts is not an agenda. You cannot read into a person's intent but only see what is in black and white. Read what is there, understand what an agenda is, judge ONLY what is put before you, and realize that the OPs original text is not an agenda.

Which diety would that be then? isnt God Speed a very old and comon phrase to wish someone a safe journey? I know of no other word that can be put there that in common usage preserves the meaning. Oh, God speed refers back to when God was on his high school track team... he was really fast! just kidding LOL *looks for lightening*

How did this cache near a bridge closed to vehicular traffic violate the listing guidelines? At the time I reviewed this cache, I saw the bridge on the map and put the cache on hold to quiz the hider about it. I published the cache once I learned the bridge was for pedestrians only. There are hundreds if not thousands of caches like this. I can also point to any number of cache hides in other states that are hidden on or under bridges on the Interstate Highway or US Federal Highway systems. Those hides present clearer cases for violations of the "Off Limits" guideline. Apart from the bridge, can you point me to a nearby government building, school or playground that I missed during the review process? A photo would help. Also, playgrounds are not a guidelines issue unless they are school playgrounds. Although I am not familar with this area, it is my understanding there is a water treatment plant that is in close proximity. This is what was reported on the day of the incident. According to the original news story, it was near a highway, a water treatment plant, and a school (or daycare). Now... on a side note - this is gonna sound way off base but what does replacing labels with a geocache label do? You do realize people could use a geocache label on something that IS dangerous and is not a cache, right? If all law enforcement were told "oh, this is the geocache label, no worries if you find something with that on it"..... well, people will take advantage and use the labels to guise something dangerous. Dangerous things can be put in any container, same as a cache.... so while removing the original labels may "help" it doesn't defuse the original issue: strange container hidden. I'm glad that the hider isn't going to be charged for "enducing panic".... that was taking it a bit too far. Its a shame that all this suspicion infects our society so thickly.

The few keyholders I've found, the majority have been soaked; however, a couple of them took to wrapping the log in a small sandwich baggie. OH and I'll have to check out the paper you use. Sounds like a cache hiders dream

I don't know the caches or if they were all by the same person - but I think the ole addage "monkey see, monkey do" applies here. The person/people who placed them probably found several just like them and thought "hey, why not" and did it.... which is a cascade effect. They put even more out there and the new hiders have a higher chance of finding more.... placing more, finding more.... I say if you want more quality containers out there, you have to take the initiative and place them (perhaps not you personally, I'm not attacking you). When I started caching, I found in this area people rely on altoid tins and micro containers like 35mm film canisters and bison tubes. The more there are the more a new hider will think that is the "standard." I figure if its a regular, look for a tupperware type container and if its a micro, default to film container or bison tube.... generally I'm spot on. What actually inspired my more creative hides was my brother. He is a cacher in Indiana and has some VERY awesome hides. They are fantastic and fun. His creativity is what inspired me to do something different over here. I'm not saying I initiated anything because I only have 3 hides BUT I have actually recently started finding a few other clever hides which is VERY exciting. I like "something different" but I'll never gripe about a standard hide either. Just post it needs maintenance and move on (that's my strategy). If I really like the cache container, I'll rave on the online log about it. If I don't, its generally a short entry about my hunt. There isn't much you can do except promote what you like and support all hiders in your area... even if they wanna use a magnetic key hider

Actually, the people who agree with the OP would say that this is NOT an agenda and should remain in place; however, if re-reviewed someone may say "well, this is a promotion for Planned Parenthood and the use of Levonogestrel" - so, to those who are supporting the OP it reads as "this is what happened to my girlfriend and we are thankful this organization exists" and would receive no hassle. The individual forcing the re-review and request to change words would see it as an agenda.

That reads better. By separating the 2 sentences, the history of the legion does not imply endorsement of the first sentence. That was sarcasm or something right? Are we really going to start into splitting hairs on perceptions of wording like that? I don't know - ask Groundspeak.

I don't blame you. I'm also watching this thread closely to see what happens because it could very well affect my membership as well.

I agree one of the bits of fun as a hider is the DNFs mixed with the fines. I recently put one out a poor woman searched for 30 minutes in the rain and couldn't find her, she returned within a couple days with her mother and her mom found it within minutes hehehe For me, there is a local one called the Tin Camel which is just an altoids tin with a log....... yeah... several tries for that one. One try I was on the OTHER SIDE OF THE HILL climbing a mud embankment and balancing my fat arse on tree roots that stuck out (no, there are no pictures of that fiasco)..... several tries later, my son hopped out, walked up to the first few trees in the woods and said "found it" GAH! lol

You sure it wasn't the cache? Indeed - the real cache was about 20 feet away from it *laughs*... trust me, at first it was sooo out of place I thought it may be the cache but my GPS said otherwise. What the picture fails to show you is that this log was about 5 foot long LOL

Strangely enough, I was out today at a local park. While in route to the cache, I saw a log.... with duct tape. It was out-of-place enough for me to snap this picture: I marked it up to "strange vandalism"

Hmmmm rewording you say.... --- This cache is placed in honor of my children who are serving in the US Armed Forces. I am proud of what they are doing and want to thank all who have served or are serving. The American Legion was chartered by Congress in 1919 as a patriotic, mutual-help, war-time veterans organization. A community-service organization which now numbers nearly 3 million members -- men and women -- in nearly 15,000 American Legion Posts worldwide. These Posts are organized into 55 Departments -- one each for the 50 states, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, France, Mexico, and the Philippines. God speed to you all!

I suppose I am reading all this and seeing both sides of the fence. I doubt the original cacher complaining about the type of cache is the complainer... it is all coincidental. It sounds like that individual was just angry it was "an ammo can hidden under the stairs" .... and my guess is that person doesn't do a lot of caches cuz for me, I've grabbed a lot of "ammo boxes hidden in tree stumps" or "under logs" - 95% of the caches I've found are not "creative." Now, as for the agenda. Ok, I can see how a reviewer would see something this slight as an agenda. Thanking troops and God.... But, its her thanking them, not her telling us we have to thank them or show our support for the troops or for God. It is HER tribute to her children. The reviewer has something very specific and I am curious if reviewers are not allowing personal opinion leak into what they choose to publish and not to publish. No, I'm not saying all reviewers - but perhaps some allow their opinion to sway their thoughts on a cache. I think if the reviewer is going to bring this to the table as an agenda and archive it, then ALL of Groundspeak must start searching and archiving because as mentioned, there are a TON of cache pages out there that have an EXPLICIT agenda and aren't shy of sharing it. These include troop support, God, diseases and research. And yes, I agree that CITO is an explicit agenda as well so all those cache pages with links or images for CITO need archived as well. If something as simple as a thank you is an agenda,.... well, you get the point. According to the guidelines, all of these need removed regardless of if we agree or disagree with the agenda. Heck - if you really want to think about if... if a cache simply mentions wanting to take you somewhere you probably have never been before - that's an agenda. But, isn't that what caching is pretty much built on? We have a virtual cache here in Springfield called the Oak Ridge Tour and the purpose is to get people to walk around a large cemetary and visit the memorial's to the soldiers (Vietnam War, WWII, Korean War) and Lincoln's Tomb. Would this need to be taken down as well because not only does it promote visiting a local cemetary with monuments but the questions asked promote education? What a terrible agenda, huh? *rolls eyes* I personally have NO problem with this cache listing. As a mother, I feel I should be able to place a cache in honor of my children for whatever makes me proud of them be it sports, academia, or military service. By the appeal process, one of the listed means was to post on the forums and get feedback from your fellow cachers.... my feedback is "Let this cache stand as is... a cache where the woman thanks her children and gives information about the American Legion.

I cache with my kids (not sure if that's considered solo or not since I'm the only adult) - I'm ok caching with other adults tho. Either works for me.

I have an older GPS I'd be willing to pass on, but I'm afraid you hate me after you got it for helping you (did I mention its REALLY old?) BUT - in any sense, you are welcome to it. Its better than nothing. Just PM me if you are interested.

Central Illinois doesn't have much to offer as far as scenary. This one was a quick shot taken at a cache (sunset and its about to storm) in an effort to not look so suspicious to people driving by....

I think that people who are reluctant to admit they do look at the hint immediately are along the same lines as people who feel DNFs are shameful and either don't report them or try to make it a note or something else. Each person takes away from the game what they want. Some people value numbers and some people like to be "die hard". I wouldn't say that every person who said they don't read it are full of beans. Maybe they are the ones that do wait.... but I'm sure there are a host of people out there who do think its shameful to look and would rather say they don't when, in fact, they do. Me, I'm a hint-looking-DNF-loggin fool :)

If the person isn't maintaining the cache, they aren't maintaining it and it needs to be archived. I'd first post to the owner and if they didn't do anything, I'd probably contact the reviewer that published it (usually the first comment in the logs).