Rebore

Thanks for clarifying my point again, cezanne. I wouldn't have had the patience required for that anymore.

Nope. There is also a thread in the Groundspeak forums with over 300 posts right now called "Ethics of Finding". In neither of those threads any final coordinates were shared. You thought cezanne was making something up when she talked about mass coordinate sharing, I tried to correct you and pointed you to a list with nearly 28000 spoilered Caches. That is what is beeing discussed in the evil GERMAN forum.

Forgive the snip of the quote, but this is an important part of context. Sorry that it is devolving "over there". Like I said, it seems awfully localized to hear about "coordinate sharing" at a scale of 700+ people on a facebook group or listserve. That hasn't happened in my experience anywhere in the US I've lived or visited. As for the "Greetings from Germany", it may be "dated and boring", but it is still incredibly relevant for context about what the state of affairs are over in Germany/Austria when paired up with the existence of a 700+ person blacklist coordinate-sharing site on the internet. This only serves as historical context that it appears that your localized problems are, indeed, localized problems. There are a few clear, obvious "ethical violations" such as mass couch-logging ("Greetings..."), or mass coordinate-sharing (mentioned facebook group or listserve with 700+ members) in your part of the world. I think you misunderstood something. Allow me to quote myself: I have no idea how many people are sharing coordinates and where they are from. There are many german cachers upset by this, that's what I was trying to say. Edit: Also, allow me to quote you from a different thread:

But yeah, everything is fine and nobody got "rose-colored glasses" on. You just need a magnifying glass to find the "candid geocachers". I'll welcome this as fact when it is such. I said it above: It sounds like your area is to the gills with what we would all consider "unethical" people. I can say that, if you were to live here, you'd be surprised to see that your ethics would be in the majority, not the minority. YOU need a "magnifying glass" to find the "candid geocachers" because for some reason Austria/Germany is home to "Greetings from Germany" and 700+ members of an overt coordinate sharing group. I admit I was exaggerating. When I started caching, I soon noticed that quite a few hiders of great caches were already losing interest and wondered why. Now they are gone completly, e.g. Gert let his charter membership lapse a few weeks ago. Good thing is, many of their caches hold up for 10 years or more without maintenance, so there's still enough for me to hunt for. You can't deny that the behaviour of others affects the game for many. This is not about controlling the behaviour of others or deleting online logs if a cache was not found the way it was intended by the owner. It's about how the game is devolving, at least over here. Btw, the "Greetings from Germany" reference is dated and boring.

I am tired, so for now: But yeah, everything is fine and nobody got "rose-colored glasses" on. You just need a magnifying glass to find the "candid geocachers".

Well, take a look here (Finals removed, of course). There's a thread in the biggest german forum with over 700 postings right now called "Mystery coords on Facebook" which was started on January/29/2015, so obviously quite a few people are upset and affected by this. Most veterans that always placed great caches. Really? I'm glad to hear you live in a perfect geocaching world.

I appreciate the information on how this list was compiled, how the developer became aware his server was compromised and don't think it's off topic.

I managed to clean my screen after reading the latest comments, but you guys owe me a new keyboard.

I'm guessing you haven't spent much time reading these forums. You're wrong, but I know where you are coming from

@Cezanne, NeverSummer: You really should agree to disagree. Both of you can't get any more verbose than you already have been.

I found a cache placed by a charter member which was rated 2/3, had over 20 stages and required a >130km hike. Clayjar's tool never was of any importance in my area, as far as I can tell.

Me too, I'll follow: 3878 not yet found caches, 991 Multis. D1: 30 D1.5: 255 D2: 396 D2.5: 139 D>=3: 171

So the next step would be holding an event on the day a powertrail is published, place 10-20 "temporary virtual caches" between the physical ones and allow multiple finds on each listed cache. Did I misunderstand something?

Point is GS is the one promoting people going to the pubs or wineries and they have money, if someone gets hurt by a drunk driver, they will be a target for both the driver and victim. There's an advertisement for Molson Canadian at the hockey rink. Is the hockey team responsible if I drink Molson Canadian and kill someone? You're being absurd. https://www.google.ca/search?q=drunk+driver+sues+bar&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari Now it's is absurd: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald's_Restaurants I agree with narcissa, the Liebeck case is widely misunderstood:

Der Beitrag von keystone (einer der renommiertesten US-Reviewer) in diesem Thread http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=326661 bestaetigt mich auch in meiner Sichtweise dass es auf die Machart ankommt und vor allem darauf dass man die Loesung nicht nur mit einem ganz bestimmten Tool ermitteln kann sondern dass Alternativen gibt. Danke für den Link, also ist die Aussage "Steganographie ist nicht mehr erlaubt" schlichtweg falsch.

... Wenn ein Reviewer sowas ablehnt, wuerde ich mich direkt an appeals wenden und grosse Chancen sehen zu gewinnen. Es kommt immer auf die Steganografie Methode an, die man anwendet. Wenn die zitierte Aussage vom Reviewer stimmt, dann bringt appeals wohl auch nichts:

I don't understand why many people have a problem with condoms or tampons being used as trade items in caches. They are part of a decent survival pack: A condom can save your life Yes, that's a tampon in my mouth No sane person would use them as intended, they are sealed and don't leak, smell or attract animals. What's the problem?

@1: Ich würde das als unverschämt und extrem faul empfinden. Was würde die Spezialisten unter den Kollegen daran hindern, einfach die Koordinaten aus der Karte zu entnehmen und jeden Gipfel zu "bedosen"? Den Wartungsaufwand übernimmt eh jemand anders. Und warum bei Gipfelbüchern halt machen, es gibt ja auch noch Höhlenbücher, Steigbücher etc. Die werden schon nix gegen "TFTC, SuperSeppi2000" Schmierereien haben. Die Koordinaten der nächsten Stage oder des Finals in einem "normalen" Bucheintrag verpackt zu hinterlassen ist dagegen meiner Meinung nach völlig in Ordnung bzw. durchaus elegant. @2: Anreise, Zustieg, Wartungsaufwand. So wenige sind das aber gar nicht unter diesen Voraussetzungen, zumindest in meiner Gegend.

This rather sums it up from my perspective. Gonads=0 I think that we are now at the lack of gonads stage, but I don't that is where it started. I think that it started with a basic lack of understanding as to who their customers are. That, and the mistaken belief that our loyalty will eventually overcome whatever they throw at us. They may have shot themselves in the foot this time. It's not banning ALRs, or forcing grey icons on us, it's about money and trust. You screw with those, it can be a long road back. My thoughts are nearly the same. Since even non-EU charter members are considering to let their PM lapse because of this incident, it clearly isn't just about the money. I didn't become a PM because of the benefits, I've always treated the charges like a donation to a non-profit association. My mistake, won't happen again. I also believe that Bryans statement will stay the ultimate answer to this discussion, regardless of how many people felt insulted by it. GS is not able to come up with a better explanation. GS relies on the fact that most people won't notice, let's see if it works out. Hopefully there will be enough "voting with my credit card" members to steepen their lurning curve.

I don't care about any legal issues, but this is what I got from this incident: * GS decided to raise the price for EU-PMs without announcement; instead they simply switched the currency (dynamically) hoping nobody would notice. * GS thought the only two currencies within the EU were GBP and EUR, so e.g. Swedish PMs also were (still are?) charged in EUR. * Recurring membership was not affected, surely because of legal reasons. Instead GS sends out reminders telling those members to cancel their contract and sign the new one, again without any word of the price increase. * The only official statement is outright insulting to many members, but GS promises to improve communication skills. * No further statement from GS, no changes. The mistakes are really getting better and better.

This is surely the biggest mess-up from GS I've witnessed so far. It really makes me feel I'm burning money for people insulting me. Please rectify this situation asap.

The audit log is useless for this purpose, it can be circumvented in several ways (apps, PQs, ...). edit: nonaeroterraqueous beat me to it.

Wenn Moderatoren offensichtlich persönlich von einem kontroversiellen Thema betroffen sind, sollten sie ihre Arbeit besser unbeteiligten Kollegen überlassen. Sperren des Kontrahenten ist wie den Mund zuhalten, es wirkt hilflos und kindisch.

I don't know if it's complete, but better than nothing:wiki

@HansHafen: Du beziehst dich wieder nur auf die Aspekte des Suchens. Dem Verstecker ist die Location sicherlich bekannt und er wird sich schwer tun, eine Note oder ein DNF zu seinem noch nicht gelegten cache zu loggen. Das der verunglückte Cacher nicht die klügste Entscheidung getroffen hatte, wird ihm wahrscheinlich schon im freien Fall bewusst geworden sein und muss hier meiner Meinung nach nicht breitgetreten werden. "Geheim" ist dieses Hobby auch schon lange nicht mehr, hier geht es ja gerade um Medienpräsenz. Edit: Ich denke ersteres.